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  • Wolfram and Hart

    In 'Reprise' Holland Manners was suppose to bring Angel to the Senior Partners but in the end, he just brought him back to Earth. I am not clear on what Holland was trying to tell Angel.

    Also- I know the Circle of the Black Thorn 'grease' the wheels of Wolfram and Hart/the Senior Partners. What was the purpose of destroying the Circle, if W&H is always going to exist in one form or another? Holland told Angel- that there was no winning, good and evil will always exist, no matter what. And what was W&H really hoping to gain from Angel? I know they've been luring him to their side but as what purpose? Did they really believe Angel would give in to their side?
    Last edited by Obsessed; 20-06-07, 03:23 AM.
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  • #2
    In 'Reprise' Holland Manners was suppose to bring Angel to the Senior Partners but in the end, he just brought him back to Earth. I am not clear on what Holland was trying to tell Angel.
    Holland's message to Angel is that the world itself is fueled by evil that lives in the hearts of every man, woman, and child. Pettiness, selfishness, jealousy, failure of fellowship -- all things that Angel is seeing as Holland narrates the point. "The world works with us. It works because of us," Holland tells him, referring to Wolfram & Hart and the evil they do.

    Also- I know the Circle of the Black Thorn 'grease' the wheels of Wolfram and Hart/the Senior Partners. What was the purpose of destroying the Circle, if W&H is always going to exist in one form or another? Holland told Angel- that there was no winning, good and evil will always exist, no matter what. And what was W&H really hoping to gain from Angel? I know they've been luring him to their side but as what purpose? Did they really believe Angel would give in to their side?
    Angel's own explanation is pretty lame -- he concedes that it won't accomplish much other than to piss off the Senior Partners, because it will show them, "if only for an instant, that they don't own us". It's essentially a suicide mission he sets them on.

    What W&H ultimately wanted (and got) from Angel was him compromised, for him to abandon his belief that he should "live as though the world were what it should be, to show it what it can be". Because only that unrelenting sense of the fight could give him a chance to oppose their plans. Putting him in charge of W&H took away that idealism.

    Honestly, Wolfram & Hart won the day in Season 5: Wesley was dead, Fred had died and been replaced by a powerful and amoral demon, Gunn was almost certainly gone. Lorne had given up any belief in fighting evil at all. Drogyn, another Champion, was dead. Spike had subtly compromised himself by joining the team. All they ended up with was the vaguest hope that destroying the Black Thorn (and possibly surviving) would send up the balloon to the other Champions in the world that the fight was really on.
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    • #3
      It was supposed to be a small victory I guess and that's the point, because if we believe Holland for W&H there is no winning as they go on.

      The powerful control everything but their will to chose. This goes back to his philosophy on being a champion. The way i read it, it's not the same as being hero it's championing a cause a belief system. Whether it's right or wrong is open to debate.

      "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be."

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      • #4
        King-

        So you're saying W&H exists because evil on Earth exists within us? That's what Holland was saying to Angel on 'Reprise'?
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        • #5
          So you're saying W&H exists because evil on Earth exists within us? That's what Holland was saying to Angel on 'Reprise'?
          Holland himself explains it best:

          Angel: "You're not gonna win."
          Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"
          Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.
          Angel: "Then why?"
          Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"
          Angel: "Why fight?"
          Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."
          And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.
          The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.
          Holland: "Welcome to the home office."
          Angel: "This isn't..."
          Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."
          From the BW transcript, emphasis added.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Obsessed View Post
            In 'Reprise' Holland Manners was suppose to bring Angel to the Senior Partners but in the end, he just brought him back to Earth. I am not clear on what Holland was trying to tell Angel.

            Also- I know the Circle of the Black Thorn 'grease' the wheels of Wolfram and Hart/the Senior Partners. What was the purpose of destroying the Circle, if W&H is always going to exist in one form or another? Holland told Angel- that there was no winning, good and evil will always exist, no matter what. And what was W&H really hoping to gain from Angel? I know they've been luring him to their side but as what purpose? Did they really believe Angel would give in to their side?
            The message Holland was trying to give Angel is that there isn't another realm where evil and hate is created. Earth, the world in which they all exist, is the home of evil. Evil isn't created in a different dimension then leaked into their world. Evil, hate, wrong doings, they are created and exist in the world of the humans. Sure demons may come from other places but even without them, the world would be full of evil and darknesses. Evil shows up in the world, not only to corrupt it more, but to feed on what is already there.

            I think Angel and the others decided to destroy the Circle because it had to be done. Its correct that evil and good and all the shades inbetween will always exist but by taking on the Circle, Angel and his crew could maybe level the playing field. Take out the head of some of the evil, and evil starts to hurt. Every now and then it is necessary to strike back at evil without they actually striking first. To show them that the world is not going to be as easy to corrupt as they think. To show them that every once in a while there are people who care enough to give their lives to stop what is being done. As for why the Senior Partners let Angel have the reins of Wolfram and Hart. Maybe they were bored and wanted to see just how far they could corrupt the good guys. Maybe they were bored and wanted to see just how far Angel would go in his battle of good vs. evil.

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