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  • Angel's soul

    Where did Angel's soul come from? I understand that when a human is turned a demon is created that takes over the body. Does the soul of that person still reside in the body? And in the case of Angel, he got his soul back but his personality really doesn't seem anywhere near that of Liam. Are we to believe that Liam's persona changed as a result of having to watch Angelus torture and kill? And why would Liam/Angel feel guilty because of things Angelus would have done? Angelus is a completely separate entity.

    Angelus tortured Drusilla and drove her insane. Her vampire self also seems insane. Does the demon that takes over after someone is turn assume some of the victim's personality?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Black Manta View Post
    Where did Angel's soul come from?
    Well there are a few theories on what exactly the soul is but when someone is turned into a vampire, their soul goes to a place known as the ether. When Angel was re ensoulled it was returned from the ether to his body.

    I understand that when a human is turned a demon is created that takes over the body. Does the soul of that person still reside in the body?
    Ok I have two basic theories on vampirism.
    Under theory 1): The soul is the very person you are and when you are turned the demon takes over the body. What's left is the memories of that person.
    Under theory 2): The soul is little more than a conscience and when turned, you retain your sense of self but without feeling guilty about killing people.

    And in the case of Angel, he got his soul back but his personality really doesn't seem anywhere near that of Liam.
    Under either theory, Angel would be a product of his memories.

    Are we to believe that Liam's persona changed as a result of having to watch Angelus torture and kill?
    Well he didn't watch but under theory 1 he took on the memories, yes and of course as I said, we are a product of our memories.

    And why would Liam/Angel feel guilty because of things Angelus would have done? Angelus is a completely separate entity.
    Well in either case we have to admit that there is a case of continued consciousness. They seem to naturally believe that it was them who did all these things. Hpwever I don't blame them under either theory. Under theory 1, you're right, Angel is relatively innocent. Under theory 2 mostly vamps take on the characteristics of the species they become even if they retain the personality of their human predecessors. Their conscience was forcibly removed. Although vampires have free will, they have free will only within the confines of their psychological disposition, just like humans in fact. Because their seems to be a psychological difference (well there would have to be is Buffy is justfied in killing them without trial) I wouldn't judge humans and vampires in the same way.

    Angelus tortured Drusilla and drove her insane. Her vampire self also seems insane. Does the demon that takes over after someone is turn assume some of the victim's personality?
    Under theory 1, yes. Under theory 2, it's self evident.

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    • #3
      Giles season 1
      You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him.

      Angel season 1
      Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it
      doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse...

      Angelus to Buffy season 2
      Angelus: Your boyfriend is dead. You're all gonna join him.

      Angel about Angelus in season 2.

      Angel: (gets up) I've had a demon inside me for a couple hundred
      years... (exhales) just waitin' for a good fight.


      Angel about Angelus in season 3.

      Daniel: I was to be married that week, but then, as I recall, you knew
      that.

      Angel: It wasn't me.

      Daniel transforms into Jenny.

      Jenny: It wasn't you?

      Angel: A demon isn't a man. I was a man once.

      Angel to Faith in season3

      Faith: I know. For real now, I'm scared. Scared of what I am, what
      I'm turning into. Cold-blooded straight up killer. Like you.

      Angel: Not like me. I didn't have a choice. But you do. You can stop
      this.

      Hope that helps.

      Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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      • #4
        The problem with quotes (not just the one that you posted) is that they are from people who don't have much knowledge about what happens (Buffy, Giles) ... or from Angel who seems to gloss the issue over when his friends are around (when he talks about Angelus, he is using 'he', and sometimes he is using 'I'). Angel has also a bit of a problem with himself. I'm not sure, but he seems to have a bit of a personality disorder, that he uses different names doesn't make it much easier. Since Spike has a soul, I prefer to use his case ... we know less about him, but he seems more stable and there are no gaps of 100 years in his story.


        I know that Kana covered the questions already, but I'm a theory 2 person and will the questions answer with my theories and ideas. But there is not a correct theory yet, and I doubt that there will ever be one.

        Where did Angel's soul come from? I understand that when a human is turned a demon is created that takes over the body. Does the soul of that person still reside in the body?
        There is not much discussion about this one, the soul leaves the body and goes into the ether. The same soul retuned when Angel got his soul back.

        And in the case of Angel, he got his soul back but his personality really doesn't seem anywhere near that of Liam.
        Liam was young, didn't saw much of the world and had no memories of being a murderer for 150 years. Angel remembers the face of every single victim, everything he did and how great it felt ... Liam was innocent, Angel isn't. But Angel is also free, he had no father who told him that he was a failure ... no restrictions and he lost the fears he had for things as religion and his father. Those things change a person, but you still see glimpses of Liam, Liam ran for his problems ... the same what Angel did for 100 years.

        Are we to believe that Liam's persona changed as a result of having to watch Angelus torture and kill?
        yup, but I would say that he didn't watch Angelus do those things. He did it, he is Angelus ... Angelus is him, without a soul and with a demon.

        And why would Liam/Angel feel guilty because of things Angelus would have done? Angelus is a completely separate entity.
        I'm afraid that he isn't, just look at Spike ... is soulled Spike another ideantity than soulless Spike? Angel changed his name, had 100 years to grow up and has another view on the situation ... but look at Angelus, he shares so many things with Angel and Liam. Angelus hated his father, because of what happened to Liam ... Angelus traveled a lot, saw the world and shared his life with an interesting woman .. things where Liam dreamed of. Angel loves art, music, books ... just like Angelus (and probably just like Liam) ... Angel has a talent to understand people, Angelus has the same talent ... only does other things with it. Those 3 names, are 3 names of 1 man ... only in different fases of his life. Angel is aware that he couldn't help himself (it's what vampires do), but he also knows that it was him.

        Angelus tortured Drusilla and drove her insane. Her vampire self also seems insane. Does the demon that takes over after someone is turn assume some of the victim's personality?
        I see the demon and the soul both as blank things, the soul is what gives you the human emotions, it's what is needed to love and to feel guilt. Without the soul, you lack those abilities. The demon is what makes somebody really evil, it awakes the lust for blood and the love to kill.

        The identity of a person is in their memories, those make the person who they are. Drusilla was crazy and stayed that way because it was still in her mind.
        Nina
        and her haircut.
        Last edited by Nina; 12-09-08, 12:59 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Black Manta View Post
          Does the soul of that person still reside in the body
          No the soul of the person does not reside in the body of the person in my personal opinion. It is made quite clear in the show whethers its Giles speech during Welcome To The Hellmouth about Jesse, or Angelus talking about himself and Angel during Season 2. That when the human dies their soul moves to a place called the ether for the body to be taken over by a demon who maintains the memory of the human life. Instead their soul goes to a place called the ether a place where we can assume most humans souls go to when they die.

          Originally posted by Black Manta View Post
          Are we to believe that Liam's persona changed as a result of having to watch Angelus torture and kill?
          Yes I believe we are. Your forgetting that Liam not only holds the memories of the brutual deeds that he committed as Angelus but also the memories of the things happening in the world around him. Living the lifestyle that Angelus lived Liam has seen the worst of the world and has more experiences that cause the change in his persona. After all from what we know of Liam was the son of his father who was a upper class christian(?) who had very little experiences in life other than getting drunk and who wanted to see the world. He has now seen the world through Angelus eyes.

          The best example I can think of is compare a 20 year old with an 80 year old version of himself... Do you honestly expect them to be the exact same person? Now that the 80 year old has seen things the 20 year certainly wouldn't have...

          Originally posted by Black Manta View Post
          And why would Liam/Angel feel guilty because of things Angelus would have done? Angelus is a completely separate entity.
          Because I think in Angel' eyes they are the same person. He maintains all of the memories of Angelus. He doesn't just remember killing the humans. He can also remember the euphoria Angelus felt with each of the kills he made. Its why he feels particularly guilty about the likes of Drusilla because he knows that she is in Angelus's eyes an eternal masterpiece of his work.

          Also you must remember as we have been told several times by Angel himself the demon isn't entirely gone. He can still feel Angelus within himself just urging to get out and cause as much devastation amongst those he cares about as he can. Even Angelus references in 'Orpheus' how horrid it was for him to have to watch just beneath the surface unable to do anything all that Angel did.

          Originally posted by Black Manta View Post
          Angelus tortured Drusilla and drove her insane. Her vampire self also seems insane. Does the demon that takes over after someone is turn assume some of the victim's personality?
          Oh yes definately I think the fact that the vampires maintains all the memories of its hosts human life that helps these memories develop into an aspect of the vampires personality. We have seen it several times during the show look at Harmony ditsy and vain as a human and again she proves to be particularly disty for a vampire. Or Spike as a human he was a rather compassionate person and had a great love for his mum. We saw the first thing vampire Spike wanted to do was sire his mum. So yes the demon definately does develop some of the human hosts personality traits.
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          • #6
            Angelus and Angel are the same person. Angel remember everything Angelus did, everyone he killed and Angelus knows and despises Angel. That?s why his story of redemption makes sense:he?s trying to atone for what he did, he was Angelus but the both are part of the same person. When Angel is alive, he has a demon inside of him that?s Angelus, always trying to reappear. Angel remembers everything he did as Angelus, as a soulless creature and he?s trying to redeem himself in order to become human and just Angel one day.

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            • #7
              In Angel's case vampirism is a metaphor for addiction. Imagine Liam as the man before he started to drink alcohol/take drugs, a relatively pure and untainted man. Angelus is the man who is so far into his addiction that he will do anything to slake his "thirst", and Angel is the man who is in recovery.

              Angel remembers what it was like to be Liam and Angelus, and is only one step away from "slipping" and becoming that addicted person again. They are all still the same person but at different stages in the recovery process. Angel is a by-product of those two men combined. So no Angelus is no more a complete seperate entity from Angel as you are from your child-self.

              Angel himself states in Doppelgangland that a vampire's personality is very much like the person they were (well he stops himself from saying it but we are meant to assume that's what he was going to say) and so Drusilla's madness as a human and as a vampire is understandable. She also has the sight which carried over from her human days too.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                Angelus and Angel are the same person. Angel remember everything Angelus did, everyone he killed and Angelus knows and despises Angel. That?s why his story of redemption makes sense:he?s trying to atone for what he did, he was Angelus but the both are part of the same person. When Angel is alive, he has a demon inside of him that?s Angelus, always trying to reappear. Angel remembers everything he did as Angelus, as a soulless creature and he?s trying to redeem himself in order to become human and just Angel one day.
                Angel remembers everything Angelus did while in his body because he is cursed. Angelus isn't the same person as Angel, he shares a body with him. When Angelus is in control, Angel is gone. That's why the memories of what Angelus has done return to him slowly after his soul is returned to his body.
                If they were in fact the same person, the memories would be there without the pause. They aren't. It's the curse.

                Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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                • #9
                  In season 4, Angel remembers everything without a pause. The one moment he is still knocked out, and the next moment he is very clear while telling Connor that he is Angel.

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                  • #10
                    I don't think I've ever seen Angel shocked about who he is, it's the memories of what the Demons done that take some time to come rushing back at him.

                    If you are talking about the incident in which he finally gets to face and fight against Angelus, man to demon, I think it would be fairly evident why he remembers exactly what happened. He WAS there that time.

                    Is that what you meant?

                    Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                      Angelus and Angel are the same person. Angel remember everything Angelus did, everyone he killed and Angelus knows and despises Angel. That?s why his story of redemption makes sense:he?s trying to atone for what he did, he was Angelus but the both are part of the same person. When Angel is alive, he has a demon inside of him that?s Angelus, always trying to reappear. Angel remembers everything he did as Angelus, as a soulless creature and he?s trying to redeem himself in order to become human and just Angel one day.
                      Yep, I go with that. Angelus is just Angel without his soul. It's just a 'tag' he's labeled himself with really. Otherwise the whole redemption arc doesn't really make any sense.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cheryl4ba View Post
                        I don't think I've ever seen Angel shocked about who he is, it's the memories of what the Demons done that take some time to come rushing back at him.

                        If you are talking about the incident in which he finally gets to face and fight against Angelus, man to demon, I think it would be fairly evident why he remembers exactly what happened. He WAS there that time.

                        Is that what you meant?
                        No I mean the moment after Willow did the spell, just when Connor tried to kill him. Angel didn't need time to adjust or to remember ... he woke up and he knew what was happening.

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                        • #13
                          I'm going to have to rewatch because I am a little fuzzy on the details of that incident. Do you remember the episode title?

                          Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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                          • #14
                            It's "Orpheus"... one of many episodes that proves that the idea that Angel and Angelus are somehow separate beings completely is pretty nonsensical. The episode manages to have visual representations of both "Angel" and "Angelus" present in one mind despite the soul not being present. That is absolutely impossible if Angel "isn't there" when the soul isn't. What you're actually seeing in "Orpheus" is a metaphor, no different than how we saw multiple representations of Buffy in "The Weight of the World" reflecting her various emotions.

                            Really, the definitive episode, the one that nobody will even dare take on while trying to argue that Angel is a completely separate being that is not around when Angelus is, is "Angel" 1.17 "Eternity". Because a drug, a "little happy pill", can't kick a soul out of someone. And yet, he became "Angelus" nonetheless. Because it's just one guy, who's a hero when he has his soul and a monster when he doesn't. That "guy" is the vampire demon, which took on the personality and memories of the human Liam when it took over his body.
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                            • #15
                              i took eternity as the pill knocking angel out--like the human soul lost consciousness--and letting angelus take over the body and brain until angel woke up again.

                              and yes, i believe that angel is liam's body, brain and memories + the demon soul's memories.

                              humans, demons and vampires all are stated to have souls. a "soulless" vampire is misleading. it's actually a vampire soul in the dead victim's body who is without the presence of the original human soul inhabitant of that body. thus, an ensouled vampire has two beings in it. a vampire demon soul and a human soul = an ensouled vampire.

                              the problem for the person getting stuffed back in their body is that they get back their body which now has to be kept up with the needs and desires of the vampire (pure survival of the species stuff) and is stuck with a bunkmate who is either complacent enough to want to receive second-hand love and admiration like spike's or is rebellious and nasty like angel's demon. that's why vampires who get the human stuffed back in with them have been shown to have very different reactions. it depends on what the demon wants. soulless-spike desperately wanted love and respect. he was driven by it. angelus, on the other hand, is a nasty bastard who does nothing but fight against angel for control of the body.

                              it's stated by both the master and giles that demons have souls... just not human ones. this goes to add to the idea that the soul is an actual being. the dark age backs this up when you see the separate beings of angel, angelus and eyghon all fighting for dominance in the same body.

                              all early and later explanations use the separate beings theory. early on, there were large statements about how the demon is actually the thing that kills you and takes over your body and memories--you heard this in regards to jesse mcnally and billy fordham.

                              the only real sources for the angel is angelus argument is largely the gypsies and xander. both were revenge-based and not really logical. holtz was actually able to grasp that angel was a different being from angelus and got back at him with a new plan on how to hurt him. he even states that it is largely a reaction to the fact that it was the same body's hands who killed his family and that he expected angelus to reemerge eventually.

                              season 4 had jasmine being very clear when describing angelus' state of being locked deep down inside of angel and unable to move, control or feed... he is a prisoner in angel with only the power of suggestion.

                              the thing angelus hates most is angel a.k.a. liam, because he has to be trapped inside of all that guilt and goodness. angelus didn't hate buffy. angelus hated that ANGEL had made him have to endure all that love for buffy. it was angel that drove angelus off the deep end in season 2 btvs, to the point of uncharacteristically wanting to end the world. angelus felt violated by love--one of the things he hates most. being dominated is the other thing he hates most... and being dominated by liam's father and angel are pretty much what drives him when he gets let loose. angelus inherited liam's dominance issues.

                              angel and angelus are each others' worst nightmares and greatest fears.

                              also--liam and angel are more alike than most people realize. they are the same person with additional memories added that made liam have a rude awakening of what his faults as a human had led to and formed within the blank demon template. angel is liam after a shocking jolt back into a mind full of horrific, gruesome memories that he remembered photographically in detail and remembered enjoying. liam had a culture shock and eventually was able to grow... and it took about 100 years just to stop hiding from everything and to start dealing. angel wasn't just automatically good. he felt guilt, but he also had to deal with feeling rejected continuously (like with judy). it wasn't until meeting whistler and seeing buffy that he started believing in humanity.

                              remember that liam didn't have a strong opinion of the goodness of humanity. he was completely disillusioned. he started to believe in humanity with judy, but was betrayed. liam's disillusionment carried over with angel until he saw buffy.
                              NileQT87
                              The Dark Avenger
                              Last edited by NileQT87; 13-09-08, 09:39 AM.

                              "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                              "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                              • #16
                                'Eternity' doesn't have to mean Angel was knocked out or even the same person. As Wes states it was chemical suggestion, it tricked Angel into believing he was perfectly happy and subconsciously he convinced himself this must mean he lost his soul, and thus, acted like Angelus. He never really lost his soul, Angelus was never really there, it was Angel being suggested by all the chemicals that he should act this way because he was feeling "fake" happiness. That doesn't prove without a doubt that Angel and Angelus must be the same person, it also don't prove without a doubt they aren't, it can be interpreted either way.

                                The shows contradictory, anyone who claims otherwise has to be ignoring several episodes, especially circa Ats season 4 and the fact that the reason this subject is brought up so often is because the show gives us different impressions. People are right in saying the redemption journey doesn't really make sense if they are two separate individuals but you also have other episodes stating that they have different minds, have EvilCordy threaten Angelus that he'll be back inside Angel, unable to act or move but having to watch everything Angel did which is exactly how Angelus describes it during 'Orpheus' in which he relives the pain he had to go through, as he describes Angel's good deeds over their history.

                                Then of course you have the whole soul dilemma. The soul's a person's essence, it's who they are. Which means if Liam's soul left his body after he was killed, it makes sense *that* soul was placed back into the body, therefore Angel is Liam with all the memories of Angelus. It doesn't make sense that it's a new soul or it can be any soul or there always wouldn't be such a dilemma about getting back Angel's soul or Angel constantly describing Liam's soul, as his own.

                                The writers screwed the whole thing up, can't blame the fans for being confused really.

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                                • #17
                                  The writers screwed the whole thing up, can't blame the fans for being confused really.
                                  Well personally speaking I don't think I was ever confused as I always saw them as being the same person.
                                  sueworld
                                  Banned
                                  Last edited by sueworld; 13-09-08, 11:54 AM.

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                                  • #18
                                    I'd be on the opposite end of that spectrum, as I have never doubted that Angel and Angelus aren't the same person.

                                    I also don't think the writers screwed Angel/Angelus up. It is Spike that the writers screwed up when they put the cart before the horse. In the end, it all ends up well. No harm done, imo.

                                    I'd also like to point out that just because fans choose to argue for or against something, doesn't necessarily mean that the message isn't or wasn't clear. I've actually seen topics argued quite well, when there isn't a speck of evidence from the series to support the arguement.

                                    Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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                                    • #19
                                      The way I see it, is that: you become a vampire, you loose your human soul, it goes to a place called 'ether' and is replaced with a demon soul. You remain the same person, only without human soul you loose your ability to empathize with people and also they turn into a source of food so you just act to satisfy the instinctual needs you now have. You loose the moral compass that otherwise guides you in the human society (rules like don't act on your impulses only, consider other's feelings etc).
                                      So, Liam is Angelus and is Angel and as many of you have pointed out, that's the way Angel redemption arc does make sense.

                                      On the other hand, Giles indeed is summing up the essence of being a vampire as follows: "A vampire isn't a person at all. It may have the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over, but it's still a demon at the core, there is no halfway." It certainly suggests that Liam has nothing to do with Angelus. But I am thinking that first of all, Giles (and the Watchers Council) might actually not have had very clear information about it. Plus this really sounds like very good explanation to tell to a young Slayer, so that she won't have doubts when she has to kill a vampire whom she might have known as human.
                                      As for Angel himself giving bit of contradictory information... First of all Angel is a special case (vampire with a soul), secondly these identity issues really seem to be quite difficult problems for him (for instance when compared to Spike), I think he has a slight case of split personalities sometimes or at least he often just really wishes that Angel and Angelus were two totally separate beings because that would mean that he doesn't have to be responsible for Angelus's deeds. But I believe most of the time he's very well aware of the fact that Liam, Angelus and Angel are all the same man and that's why he struggles so hard to be a champion, to find his redemption.
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                                      • #20
                                        "You remain the same person"

                                        But how can you? If we are to believe what the show has often told us, the soul isn't just a moral compass but it is the very essence of the individual. Buffy's soul went up to heaven, Fred's soul was destroyed resurrecting Illyria. If you’re soul is gone and is replaced with a “demon soul” it doesn’t make sense that you’re still “the same person” only without the moral compass, because that person *is the soul.*

                                        XANDER: We saw her body Will, we buried it.

                                        WILLOW: Yeah her body, sure, but her soul, her essence, that could be somewhere else entirely. She could be trapped in some hell dimension like Angel was just because she saved us and I'm not- I'm not going to leave her there.


                                        This is where the show becomes murky because you have episodes like 'Bargaining' and 'Shells' where even Angel and Spike believe Fred's soul to be Fred, "trust us where experts" but then you have episodes such as in Ats season 1 where we have the little boy who's a person, but without a soul. So in one episode you may have the soul being represented as nothing but a moral compass, but in another the soul’s the very essence of who you are. I think that’s where the whole dilemma is with the Angel/Angelus debate, because it comes down to what a soul actually is. Angel makes numerous references to “getting his soul *back.*” That implies, Liam’s soul went back into Angelus’ body, he calls it *his* soul, meaning he couldn’t be the same individual as Angelus. It wasn’t just some random new soul given to Angelus to give him a moral compass, according to how it’s been worded it was a soul already existent, lost to Angel when Liam was killed, but given back to him by the gypsy curse.

                                        It really just comes down to what you view a soul. Is a soul just a moral compass they hand out to a vampire when they're given "restoration?" Or is it the very essence of a person, in Angel or Spike's case, Liam and William? Can you just be handed a new soul, surley if it just works as a moral compass it doesn't really matter if it was the one you had before? They've always been very specific about getting *Angel's soul* back, as if you need that soul, it must be more than just a moral compass because any good normal soul would do.
                                        vampmogs
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                                        Last edited by vampmogs; 14-09-08, 01:29 PM.

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