Season Five Questions

[Obsessed]

In 'You're Welcome' Cordelia gave Angel visions from the Powers regarding Wolfram and Hart and the Circle of the Black Thorn. Why didn't they send visions of Fred dying as well? Sure Illyria is a kicka-- character but I would have thought The Powers would have known about it since it was 'pre-destined' or whatever.

I may be alone in this- but I felt Gunn's uncertainty about being the muscle out of character. He came off as a postive person in that respect and I never understood his need to become the brain (a lawyer). Even in Season Four- when he was jealous of Wes and Fred's connection, I found it surprising. Sure, I liked the lawyer storyline, but I just thought it was odd that Gunn would chose this route and especially support the idea of working for Wolfram and Hart.

Why wasn't the Host able to read Knox? How did Knox trick him? And how was Illyria's ascension pre-destined if her coffin was stuck in customs? Does that mean, Angel and crew were lured into working for W&H to make this happened or was it really Gunn who was tricked? Who made it certain that Illyria would take over Fred- other then Knox that is...

What was the purpose of killing Cordelia, Fred and Wesley off so brutally? I know that Joss was planning for Season Six but was forced to alter the storyline- esp. with Wesley's death, at least from what I read. And Joss apparently loves to kill people off but three deaths in one season says a lot. Plus we'd have to assume that Gunn died ten minutes after the show ended. What's the purpose? Why did he kill them off? What was he trying to say? That Angel will always be alone fighting? That everything he touches turned to ashes?

[Jenni Lou]

Did Knox ever sing for Lorne? I think all the W&H did. But remember, tere was that elixir stuff that blocked Lorne's ability to read. It was a B or C plot in a season five ep. Don't remember which one right now. It's been awhile since I have watched it!

As for Gunn, I think he always felt intellectually superior and perhaps he felt that if he were more brains than muscle he would be able to fight the good fight better. I think it was just the natural progression of his characer; he came from the streets into a new environment and wanted to assimilate into it and be more than the guy that just helps kick evil's ass.

As for visions of Fred's death....perhaps TPTB knew that Illyria would be a better asset than Fred for the fight that awaited Angel and his crew. Besides, it's not like TPTB tell Angel everything anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

[Obsessed]

Did Knox ever sing for Lorne? I think all the W&H did. But remember, tere was that elixir stuff that blocked Lorne's ability to read. It was a B or C plot in a season five ep. Don't remember which one right now. It's been awhile since I have watched it!

I don't know if it was mentioned as to whether or not Knox ever sang for Lorne but I assumed he did as W&H employees did in 'Conviction'. I'd have to watch 'Shells' again and see if Knox did in fact sing for him.

As for Gunn, I think he always felt intellectually superior and perhaps he felt that if he were more brains than muscle he would be able to fight the good fight better. I think it was just the natural progression of his characer; he came from the streets into a new environment and wanted to assimilate into it and be more than the guy that just helps kick evil's ass.

Your theory about having more brains then muscle to fight the good fight is a good one. Yet I always felt Gunn was more than just the muscle as he made himself out to be. I mean, he seemed pretty smart to me before the lawyer juice. Granted, not as smart as Wesley or Fred or even Angel but when this storyline was developed I was taken back that Gunn wanted more intelllectually, epsecially when he starting losing it. It just took me by surprise.

As for visions of Fred's death....perhaps TPTB knew that Illyria would be a better asset than Fred for the fight that awaited Angel and his crew. Besides, it's not like TPTB tell Angel everything anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

Another good theory- perhaps The Powers thought Illyria would be more useful. It certainly does make sense. I find some comfort in that- knowing that something good came out of Fred's death. And yes The Powers don't tell Angel everything- good point. I just figured they would since the timeframe was close- Fred's death and the upcomign battle with W&H.

[Jenni Lou]

Yeah, I guess perhaps Gunn was just more insecure than we might have realized. I haven't watched Angel or Buffy in ages. I could use a refresher.

[KingofCretins]

Knox makes a joke at some point about song choice early in the season, I'm almost certain, so it can be inferred that he did. Lorne was just snowed.

[kana]

As for Gunn, yeah, I think Gunn is more insecure than he comes across. He was beginning to develop a multi level jealousy of Wesley as well. Gunn was always a super smooth guy who could handle himself in a tight spot. Gwen saw this however Gunn couldn't. He wanted to opportunity to show that side of him.

And as for Knox singing for Lorne.

LORNE
I should've seen it. Knox. He sang for me and I should've seen this.

[ciderdrinker]

In 'You're Welcome' Cordelia gave Angel visions from the Powers regarding Wolfram and Hart and the Circle of the Black Thorn. Why didn't they send visions of Fred dying as well? Sure Illyria is a kicka-- character but I would have thought The Powers would have known about it since it was 'pre-destined' or whatever.

I don't think that the PTB ever wanted to give away too much - if that were true then why didn't they inform Angel about the CotBT earlier? The passing of the visions was a "one time only" deal and the PTB obviously felt that letting him know about the circle would've motivated Angel into doing something large and apocalyptically violent, much more than seeing one of his closest allies killed. I can kinda see their point, Angel was prone to moroseness, and maybe a vision of her dying may have spiralled him into depression (he was pretty close to it by the time of "You're Welcome")

I may be alone in this- but I felt Gunn's uncertainty about being the muscle out of character. He came off as a postive person in that respect and I never understood his need to become the brain (a lawyer). Even in Season Four- when he was jealous of Wes and Fred's connection, I found it surprising. Sure, I liked the lawyer storyline, but I just thought it was odd that Gunn would chose this route and especially support the idea of working for Wolfram and Hart.

Gunn resented being "just the muscle", and this is explored in "Players" in S4. Gwen tries - successfully - to open his eyes to the fact that he was more than that, and there is evidence of him being more intelligent than the others gave him credit for in "Apocalyse Nowish", when he was the one that decoded what came out of Lorne's head.

The other AI members seem to take Gunn as an accomplished fighter and nothing else (perhaps because of his upbringing and the fact that he obvioulsy didn't get much schooling). I'm fairly certain that the jealousy of Wes in S4 is very much down to him thinking that he wanted to compete on an intellectual level and no-one was giving him the chance. Deep down Gunn always knew he had more to give. W&H just gave him the push he needed, showing that they knew the individual members much better than Wesley or Angel did.

Why wasn't the Host able to read Knox? How did Knox trick him? And how was Illyria's ascension pre-destined if her coffin was stuck in customs? Does that mean, Angel and crew were lured into working for W&H to make this happened or was it really Gunn who was tricked? Who made it certain that Illyria would take over Fred- other then Knox that is...

I would imagine that Knox knew how to fool Lorne in the same way that the Werewolf expert knew how to fool him (they're both scientists after all).

Just because something is pre-destined doesn't mean that it won't come across difficulties - it just means that whatever happens, whatever obstacles are in the way it will still come to pass. The doctor who got Gunn to get it through customs would have found another way if Gunn had refused. In this way I think it was only Gunn that was tricked. It was totally Knox that made sure it was Fred who was infected - he was second in command in the lab and could have made sure that no-one else got to the sarcophagus until Fred got there. Also, he was surely aware that her quest for knowledge would have her interest peaked.

What was the purpose of killing Cordelia, Fred and Wesley off so brutally? I know that Joss was planning for Season Six but was forced to alter the storyline- esp. with Wesley's death, at least from what I read. And Joss apparently loves to kill people off but three deaths in one season says a lot. Plus we'd have to assume that Gunn died ten minutes after the show ended. What's the purpose? Why did he kill them off? What was he trying to say? That Angel will always be alone fighting? That everything he touches turned to ashes?

Cordy was killed off as Joss felt that her story had come to a close (bone of contention I know, but apparently that's what he thought) and with Fred, I believe it was to showcase her acting skills more (maybe he was a little bored of her sweet girl character, and wanted something with more spice) In the commentary for AHITW he says something about us the audience not having seen her "regal" side. We know that the decision for Wesley to be killed off was taken after the show was cancelled and therefore he probably wanted to make sure that the ending was truly epic. Also, Angel asks everyone to risk their life by going after the CotBT, and it would've been a cop out to have no-one die.

You make an interesting point about him being alone fighting though, but he wasn't alone at the end - he had Spike, Gunn and Illyria with him still, (if you discount Gunn was on death's door) and they stood "shoulder to shoulder" with Angel because they still believed in his mission.

[LRae12]

In 'You're Welcome' Cordelia gave Angel visions from the Powers regarding Wolfram and Hart and the Circle of the Black Thorn. Why didn't they send visions of Fred dying as well? Sure Illyria is a kicka-- character but I would have thought The Powers would have known about it since it was 'pre-destined' or whatever.

I always got the impression that the PTB only sent visions when they wanted the outcome to be changed. That they weren't necessarily 'good guys' but just trying to keep a balance between good & evil. I'm sure they didn't send Cordy visions of every demon attack that occured in LA through the years, only the ones they deemed would tip the balance in the favor of evil. So my impression was that Fred's dying wasn't something that they deemed necessary to change, but that the circle of the black thorn taking over the world was...if that makes sense.

[Cinderela]

In 'You're Welcome' Cordelia gave Angel visions from the Powers regarding Wolfram and Hart and the Circle of the Black Thorn. Why didn't they send visions of Fred dying as well? Sure Illyria is a kicka-- character but I would have thought The Powers would have known about it since it was 'pre-destined' or whatever.

What was the purpose of killing Cordelia, Fred and Wesley off so brutally? I know that Joss was planning for Season Six but was forced to alter the storyline- esp. with Wesley's death, at least from what I read. And Joss apparently loves to kill people off but three deaths in one season says a lot. Plus we'd have to assume that Gunn died ten minutes after the show ended. What's the purpose? Why did he kill them off? What was he trying to say? That Angel will always be alone fighting? That everything he touches turned to ashes?

I always thought that it wasn't TPTB that sent Angel the vision - Cordy says "TPTB owed me one and I didn't blow it. I got my guy back on track." So, I assumed that the vision was all Cordy's doing. She herself was a higher being. It's been awhile since I watched those eps, but I don't think it was ever explained just exactly how Cordy was "demonized" in Birthday. Since Cordy never did "wake up", I've always thought that everything that happened in You're Welcome was all Cordy.

Well, Joss does love to keep reminding us - In the end, you're always alone - you're all you've got - that's the whole point. And death can be a transient thing in the Jossverse. Being dead in the Jossverse is very often a temporary state. Even Spike was resurrected after he was incinerated closing the Hellmouth. And Cordy isn't dead, she's just not on this plane of existence anymore. I can't remember the exact quote, but in You're Welcome she says something like "this isn't me anymore - I'm on a different road and this is my off ramp."

As for visions of Fred's death....perhaps TPTB knew that Illyria would be a better asset than Fred for the fight that awaited Angel and his crew. Besides, it's not like TPTB tell Angel everything anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

Do we know for sure that Illyria was pre-destined? (Again, been awhile since I watched these eps) I've never thought that TPTB were all knowing and all seeing. (If they were, why weren't the Oracles saved? Why not prevent that whole Jasmine fiasco?) Knox was the Illyria worshipper and made sure that Illyria ended up in Fred's body.

Another good theory- perhaps The Powers thought Illyria would be more useful. It certainly does make sense. I find some comfort in that- knowing that something good came out of Fred's death. And yes The Powers don't tell Angel everything- good point. I just figured they would since the timeframe was close- Fred's death and the upcomign battle with W&H.

But that would mean that TPTB would have to have known in advance that Angel was going to START the battle. Angel provoked the Senior Partners in every way he could think of. If monitoring Angel every day didn't give the Senior Partners advance warning of what Angel was up to, I don't see how TPTB would know.

I was never a Fred lover anyway, so the whole Illyria plotline was a pleasant surprise for me. I do agree that she was a bigger asset than Fred would have been to Angel's final plan. And how could you not love "Wesley's dead. I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to control it. I wish to do more violence." Personally, I'd rather have the p***ed off God fighting on my side.

Maybe it was just as simple as Joss wanting to go out with a BANG! Or for the shock value alone - personally, I was VERY shocked that we lost so many characters.

[Jenni Lou]

Do we know for sure that Illyria was pre-destined? (Again, been awhile since I watched these eps) I've never thought that TPTB were all knowing and all seeing. (If they were, why weren't the Oracles saved? Why not prevent that whole Jasmine fiasco?) Knox was the Illyria worshipper and made sure that Illyria ended up in Fred's body.

Not a bad point. Even if they are all-knowing, they are at the very least hesitant to intervene.

[sherrilina]

Cordy was killed off as Joss felt that her story had come to a close (bone of contention I know, but apparently that's what he thought)

Re: Joss fired her b/c of he didn't get along with her. I just cannot believe Joss's pathetic excuse, Xander and Anya didn't have much of a storyline in season 7, but did you see him firing them? And there was PLENTY of potential for Cordy storyline, much of which was only hinted at in YW--the ramifications of what Jasmine did while in her body last year, her opposition to WH, possibly resuming her relationship (or starting for real) with Angel, interacting with Eve, etc--plus just contributing her daily dose orf sarcasm, humor, and warmth that made ATS what it was before season 5. Unless Joss suddenly lost all of his creativity and intelligence in regard to one character's storyline, so that he couldn't even keep a "core three" cast member in the show like he did with Xander in the Core 4, that's just an excuse and he fired her. Which is pretty ridiculous--I mean, the core 4 on Buffy were pretty much in it the whole time! (Though Gilesleft for a bit he still came back).

It is interestign though how on Angel so many of the core characters died, whereas on BTVS Joss made a point of not touching any of original core 4. I think it's probably representative of the diff b/t the two shows in general...

[Obsessed]

Sherrilina-

I wonder if Joss got rid of Cordelia because he wanted Angel to be 'alone'. I mean, clearly they still loved each other, so would it been werid to have her back? I don't think so because Angel would have taken her back as friends if that was the only option. He cared about their friendship that much. If you noticed- Cordy, Doyle, Wes, Fred and soon Gunn (as I am led to believe he dies ten mintues after Angel slays the dragon), Angel fights 'alone' not with friends. Spike for me, doesn't count as a friend- not the kind that that Angel had with the others. And of course- Illyria isn't his friend... so I find it sad, symbolic and interesting that in the end Angel ends up alone in way, fighting the good fight... course, this wouldn't have happened had the WB picked the show up for another season... which irks me cuz how the show ended wasn't Joss' plan. I'd like to know what his plans were- all I know was he was gonna keep Illyria and have her act out as Fred more thus complicating her relationship with Wesley... but that's it. I want more info.

Anyhoo- my question about the Circle of the Black Thorn is... since it appears it was a suicide mission, killing them all- did it really benefit Angel and team? Did it weaken W&H? CotBT greased W&H's wheels, so I'd have to assume they had great power, eh? What exactly did they do? I thought the wolf, ram and the hart were low-level demons... so who were they and how did they come into being and why would they need CotBT's help?

I get this impression that even after killing the CotBT didn't help Angel at all. And that W&H never fell apart or died... as they'll always exist, no matter what and that Angel risked everyone's lives for a fight that seems they'd lose...

[KingofCretins]

The best I can argue for Angel's plan is that killing the Circle of the Black Thorn would force W&H to slow down their plans and recover. I figure that Angel figured they were too far down the road with W&H to get out, and that they could at least send up the balloon to Buffy and her organization that W&H's plan had gone into motion.

[kana]

Anyhoo- my question about the Circle of the Black Thorn is... since it appears it was a suicide mission, killing them all- did it really benefit Angel and team? Did it weaken W&H? CotBT greased W&H's wheels, so I'd have to assume they had great power, eh? What exactly did they do? I thought the wolf, ram and the hart were low-level demons... so who were they and how did they come into being and why would they need CotBT's help?

I always got the impression it was about making a stand. Angel's philosophy on being a champion wasn't simplyinh about helping people it was about making a point, showing evil that free will and willingness to use it undermines evil's MO of control and order. I would assume the BT have a lot of power and influence on this plain and it was explained that they kept things running on earth for the SPs to make their Apocalypse run smoothly. I'm not sure about how the SP's got to their level and why they are not on this plain. Maybe it was price they paid for the power. Lorne implied that living on this plain makes a creature of such vulnerable and we saw that to an extent with Jasmine.

I get this impression that even after killing the CotBT didn't help Angel at all. And that W&H never fell apart or died... as they'll always exist, no matter what and that Angel risked everyone's lives for a fight that seems they'd lose...

Well I got the impression that it wasn't about winning but championing a cause, a belief system. He didn't lie to the fang gang. He ask him if it was a cause worth dying for and they agreed fully. Angel even said in the previous year, being a champion is about exercising you beliefs and showing it to world whether to the souls you're trying to save to the forces that wish to control you, but he did say it doesn't matter if you make a difference, but I think Angel has made a difference. A fight like this wont go unnoticed. Whether the consequences will be positive or negative remain to be seen and of course depend on the matter of perspective.

[Obsessed]

I always got the impression it was about making a stand. Angel's philosophy on being a champion wasn't simplyinh about helping people it was about making a point, showing evil that free will and willingness to use it undermines evil's MO of control and order. I would assume the BT have a lot of power and influence on this plain and it was explained that they kept things running on earth for the SPs to make their Apocalypse run smoothly. I'm not sure about how the SP's got to their level and why they are not on this plain. Maybe it was price they paid for the power. Lorne implied that living on this plain makes a creature of such vulnerable and we saw that to an extent with Jasmine.

So you're saying that it wasn't so much about winning, even though it seemed obvious to Angel and his friends, it was a losing battle but it was about being a champion, fighting to the end? If that's the case, then removing the CoTB didn't help them in the matter, it was a lost cause. It didn't weaken W&H, it didn't really do anything, did it?

Well I got the impression that it wasn't about winning but championing a cause, a belief system. He didn't lie to the fang gang. He ask him if it was a cause worth dying for and they agreed fully. Angel even said in the previous year, being a champion is about exercising you beliefs and showing it to world whether to the souls you're trying to save to the forces that wish to control you, but he did say it doesn't matter if you make a difference, but I think Angel has made a difference. A fight like this wont go unnoticed. Whether the consequences will be positive or negative remain to be seen and of course depend on the matter of perspective.

You've really helped me with your perspective. I think I am starting to understand why Angel and his friends went out like that. Thanks!

[Julian]

The message of Angel throughout the entire series has been existentialist in nature. Yes, it can be bleak and hopeless but it is also deeply noble if you tend to think in terms of Camus and Sartre: Life doesn't end with a final note, there is final end, no final reward, no heaven or hell, there was no beginning only continuity (the allusion of Liam to Angelus to Angel), the only freedom we have, the only real choice and reward we've got is to define who we are regardless of what the universe does or give us. In the end, angel didn't fight for the shanshu (like Spike did), Buffy, Cordy or Redemption or reward, he fought because he chose to become the kind of guy who does good for its own sake.

Giving a finality would have been detrimental to the show's message. It's as if to say: Evil will always be there but our efforts to resist on a daily basis it becomes the only foundation of whatever good we get in the world. BEing free and morally good is not rooted in any cause or great epic struggle, it's rooted in the guy who does the things he does because that's the kind of guy he is.

Neo said better. (In a way Angel is kinda like Neo)

Smith: "Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why? Why?"
Neo: "Because I chose to"

I think that pretty much sums up what Angel was all about.

[Cinderela]

Angel summed up the whole epic battle in Power Play.

ANGEL: We're in a machine. That machine's gonna be here long after our bodies are dust. But the senior partners will always exist in one form or another because mankind is weak.

We are weak. The powerful control everything... except our will to choose. Look, Lindsey's a pathetic halfwit, but he was right about one thing. Heroes don't accept the way the world is. The senior partners may be eternal, but we can make their existence painful.

WESLEY: You wanna take them on.

ANGEL: We're in a machine. The Black Thorn runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt, even if it's just for a moment.

GUNN: We know the drill.

ANGEL: No, you don't. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give.

SPIKE: Kill 'em all... burn the house down while we're still in it.

ANGEL: Something like that.

And even before power play, Cordy touched on the same issue in YW.

CORDELIA: Doyle Pissed me off so righteously going out like that, but he knew. He knew what he had to do. Didn't compromise. Used his last breath to make sure you'd keep fighting. I get that now.

CORDELIA: You just forgot who you are.

ANGEL: Remind me.

CORDELIA: Uh, no. That's for you to figure out, bubba. I can tell you who you were. A guy who always fought his hardest for what was right, even when he couldn't remember why. Even when he was miserable, which was, let's face it, a not small portion of the time. He did right. And that gave him something. A light, a glimmer.

I always thought it was just about doing the right thing - fighting what needs to be fought, no matter what the consequences. IMHO, that is the very definition of a hero.

Even if it wasn't Joss's preferred ending - I think sending Angel out a hero was totally in keeping with Angel's basic character.

[loekie]

hmm... I think it wasn't really about sending Angel out as a Hero... I mean... in a way yeah.. ofcourse... but also maybe, since Angel's journey... and well.. basically I think the whole messege behind the Angel series is that you need to leard to deal with yourself... Buffy in a way was more about growing up and finding yourself... where Angel then was about, I think anyway, was oke.. now you found yourself... and then what? Then you have to learn to live with yourself and well.. make the best of it.. which is why I think a lot of the characters made such a huge change ... So.. yeah I think the end was in a way to let him go out being a hero.. but also maybe about Angel realising he now is in a way, come to terms with who he is/has become... and was now ready for the fight of his life...

[Goddess Guidance]

I may be alone in this- but I felt Gunn's uncertainty about being the muscle out of character. He came off as a postive person in that respect and I never understood his need to become the brain (a lawyer). Even in Season Four- when he was jealous of Wes and Fred's connection, I found it surprising. Sure, I liked the lawyer storyline, but I just thought it was odd that Gunn would chose this route and especially support the idea of working for Wolfram and Hart.

You're not alone. Gwen's comments to Gunn made it seem like the group put him down. They never did. Gunn was so adament and unapologetic about joining W&H. That was not his charcater, although I would say it was out of character for any of them to join. Angel's is the only motive I understand. Gunn was ready to turn on his friends for the position. If everyone else said no to W&H (like he dared them to do) then who would he be proving his smarts to? It's not like Gunn became a lawyer to impress Fred. They just went out of charcter to get Gunn at W&H as a lawyer.

Gunn resented being "just the muscle", and this is explored in "Players" in S4. Gwen tries - successfully - to open his eyes to the fact that he was more than that, and there is evidence of him being more intelligent than the others gave him credit for in "Apocalyse Nowish", when he was the one that decoded what came out of Lorne's head.

When did the crew try to take his credit?

Re: Joss fired her b/c of he didn't get along with her. I just cannot believe Joss's pathetic excuse, Xander and Anya didn't have much of a storyline in season 7, but did you see him firing them?

I certainly don't believe Joss. He also said she wanted to focus on motherhood yet Charisma was looking for projects pretty soon after giving birth.

[vampmogs]

You're not alone. Gwen's comments to Gunn made it seem like the group put him down. They never did. Gunn was so adament and unapologetic about joining W&H. That was not his charcater, although I would say it was out of character for any of them to join. Angel's is the only motive I understand. Gunn was ready to turn on his friends for the position. If everyone else said no to W&H (like he dared them to do) then who would he be proving his smarts to? It's not like Gunn became a lawyer to impress Fred. They just went out of charcter to get Gunn at W&H as a lawyer.

The group never regarded Gunn as anything more than muscle and this isn't fair when he has proven to be more worthy than this. Take for example when Angel is dishing out orders to find out all he could about the Beast Master. He gives everyone important jobs and roles but then tells Gunn to sit tight, saying that you never know when you might need some muscle. Gunn has proven himself to be a lot more than the muscle and clearly has issues with people believing that is all he is capable of. Wolfram and Hart represented a chance for Gunn to prove everyone wrong, he wanted to show people then he wasn't just the brawn he had the brains as well. I don't believe it was OOC at all, they'd been building to it all season.

When did the crew try to take his credit?

They never tried to take his credit but they never gave him the credit either. It was never about Angel or anyone else taking Gunn's credit, they just never regarded anything Gunn did as worthy of credit. They didn't realise he had a lot more to offer.