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Liam, Angelus, Angel, human Angel ... dead Angel? [SPOILERS issue 12]

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  • Liam, Angelus, Angel, human Angel ... dead Angel? [SPOILERS issue 12]

    The last page of Issue 12, meant the death of our main character. With another 5 issues and a new series ... this can't be the end of Angel. How does he return?

    There are some possibilities/theories;

    1. Angel is not going to die, he changes his mind before he is really gone.
    2. When Angel became human, he and Angelus did split up, and Angel dies ... but Angelus is still walking around. Give Angelus a soul, and tadaa, Angel.
    3. ATF is only a (really) bad dream and Angel is not dead or human.
    4. Angel will be brought back from the death.
    5. Gunn's bloody sword and a bite from another vampire, sire Angel before he is really gone.
    6. Spike sires Angel before he dies.

    So what do you think?

    I really don't know ... some theories I like, some I don't like. I'll let Brian suprise me.
    Angel will change his mind about the dieing issue.
    Angel is dead, but Angelus is still around.
    Spike will sire Angel.
    Gunn will sire Angel, the bloody sword can have a role.
    ATF isn't real and Angel can't die.
    The PTB give a choice to return.
    I've got another theory ...
    I don't know ...
    Why can't he stay dead? *dances on his grave*
    Last edited by Nina; 10-09-08, 06:45 PM.

  • #2
    I'm not sure how to vote, but I do have opinions on the various options.

    I don' think Angel is *dead* at the end of Issue #12. He's dying, and wanted to fight, but the vision terrified him, and he'd rather die. But I don't think he's any more *dead* than Cordy was in "Birthday", at least not yet, and Cordy is basically his Skip in this context. What happens next, like what happened to Cordy, will be partially up to Angel.

    I figure it's pretty much certain that he becomes a vampire again at this point, which really, really sucks and all but wastes any storytelling value in the idea of Angel becoming human, IMO. What's left is to figure out how. After Issue #11, I jumped very quickly on the possibility of the sword being used as a device to re-vamp him. Angel's human blood has been mostly drained by his injuries, and Gunn's blood on the blade re-vamps him. Seems plausible, but I also think it would be a mistake to do it that way. No matter how "neat" it sounds, I don't think Lynch or Joss should take the predatory act out of the process of making someone a vampire (the draining), or the human failure (being unable to refuse to drink). Here we'd have a siring that is completely incidental on both sides. I'd rather have Gunn actually malevolently decide to vamp him just to be mean (which seems unlikely since Gunn has already said he wants to let him die), or even Spike (even though that would be a clean rip-off of "Moonlight").

    The least likely of all of these is that Angelus is "walking around" somewhere -- he can't be. Angelus and Angel are not different people. Angelus is what you get when the amorphous vampire demon maps itself onto the personality and memory of the man that was named Liam. Angel is what you get when you give that demon a soul. The differences between the three personalities are pretty small. Angel is one essential being with three different natures, the way there are three phases of matter in solid, liquid, and gas. Ice, water, and steam are all still just H20. The human, the soulless vampire, the vampire with a soul are all, effectively, just Angel.

    A lot of people quickly, and incorrectly, jump on "Orpheus" as proof that that's not the case -- how could we see Angel and Angelus as different people otherwise? Easy. "Orpheus" was a dream, a hallucination. The "Angel" and "Angelus" nature of the being both appear separately for visual contrast. The fact that we see Angel *despite the soul not being there* proves this. And if that's not sufficient, consider "The Weight of the World" -- we see no fewer than three Buffys, the one that "killed" Dawn, the one that felt relief in the Magic Box, and the child that met Dawn. That fact doesn't mean that each of those three Buffys are separate beings just because that's how they manifested for Willow in Buffy's mind.

    So, no, there's no random "Angelus" creature wandering around out there. Everything that Angel is or could be, the monster or the man, is currently bleeding in front of Gunn and Wesley.
    Banner by LRae12


    • #3
      So, no, there's no random "Angelus" creature wandering around out there. Everything that Angel is or could be, the monster or the man, is currently bleeding in front of Gunn and Wesley.
      Yep, I totally agree. I'm sure folks must have realised that as a famous character as Angel the Vampire with a soul wouldn't ultimately end up back to being a Vamp. He's too 'hot' a property that way to be changed into a human permanently.

      I mean 'Angel the man with a soul' doesn't have quiet the same ring to it, does it?


      • #4
        What's in the name?

        I agree with KoC, it's a pity that Angel won't continue to be human. There is so much to explore. I think that Angel is interesting enough to continue as a human. It's a very new 'adventure' and it would do the story and the character good. It's not like the vampire is Angel's personality (Like Edward from Twilight, who is not more than a vampire), Angel has enough flaws and vitues to be still a great character.

        But I guess that it's the same as Spike's coat ... they don't want to lose it because they are afraid that they will lose fangirls.

        But back to the topic, I would hate it if they went with the Angelus and Angel did split story ... and Spike's fangs should stay away as well. I'm also no fan of the superhuman theory. But I've no idea what it would be, or what I would like the most.


        • #5
          If we're going to have a vampire Angel again, I think that the bloody sword is a neat way to do it. I think this time around, there's no way Angel would drink the vampire blood. Every fibre of his being would be against the idea and I think he'd sooner die than inhale vampire blood like he did two hundred years ago. And siring through non-conventional ways is something that hasn't really been explored before. Even when Harth sired himself from Icarus it was sort-of normal.

          And no, there's no way Angelus is out there somewhere in a seperate body. They're the same person Angelus is not his evil twin.


          • #6
            I'm not sure if the victim has a choice in the drinking matter. Darla didn't want to be vamped again, but she drank. I've the feeling that Angel would drink, not because he is weak or because he is afraid to die, but because there is no choice at all.

            I'm curious if it's possible to sire somebody (by accident) in a different way that the normal way.


            • #7
              Never say never in the Buffyverse. While Angelus and Angel are the same person there a many ways for them to become two. Think of the demon in The Replacement we get two sides of Xander and if that's possible than splitting Angel would be a sinch. One other thing to remember is that they (apparently) share different minds because only Angelus could remember The Beast which leads the Angelus option very open. Don't really believe it's the answer but I think it has more legitimacy than given.