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  • The Powers/Visions/Cordelia

    I recently purchased the DVDs for Angel Season Three, Four and Five and have been catching up a lot. So I have a lot of unanswered that I hope some of you can answer.

    Skip helped arranged for Jasmine to have Cordelia become a half-demon to pave the way for Jasmine's birth in Season Four. I was under the impression that The Powers were responsible for Cordelia's demoness yet at the same time were not aware of Jasmine's plans. If this is the case, either way- does that mean Cordelia was meant to become a half-demon anyway since humans are not fit to have the visions? The woman Tammy, another human who also had the visions, voiced that humans were not meant to have the visions. Was this a ruse to lure Cordelia? Since Skip was clearly in cahoots with Jasmine, does that mean the alternate reality where Cordelia was an actress also a trick? Or perhaps it was an actual journey that Cordelia was meant to take in spite of Skip and Jasmine's true intentions?

    I have a hard time believing that Jasmine maneuvered everyone's lives like chese pieces. Before Season Four- I always felt everyone created their own fate- like Cordelia's visions and demon status. I felt it was meant to happen to her, to help Angel fight evil and personally help her grow in to a better person. Then Skip stated in 'Inside Out', it was all arranged to make Jasmine's birth a reality. When he said this- I felt everything was ruined, the gang's actions, meant nothing, that it had no signifance because Jasmine supposely made it happen. I would have believed Jasmine's arrival if it were in a form of hitchhiking, where she looked for the right opportunity to jump on to a speeding car. For instance- Cordelia's ascension, I would have accepted that as an chance for Jasmine to hitch a ride 'with' or 'in' Cordelia. Am I alone in this? I always feel sad when I watch the first three seasons because of what Skip said. It feels like they tarnished Angel's mission and the lives around him.

    I read that Joss had different plans for the Jasmine storyline but Charisma's pregancy change the story arc. Does anyone know what his plans were? Does anyone know why he couldn't bring Charisma back for more episodes in Season Five?

    While Season Four has some really strong episodes yet as the whole, I hated it. I know that its been said that Jasmine really seduced Conner, nor Cordelia. However, I am confused about this. I know in 'Spin the Bottle', Jasmine's personity woke up but was it slowly? Was she starting to take control of the steering wheel? Where was Cordelia in all of this- did she appear once in a while or was she in a zombie-like form the whole time? When Cordelia realized she slept with Conner- she seemed pretty shocked, does that mean it was really 'her' or all an act on Jasmine's part? If it was Cordelia, didn't she realized she was seducing Conner during the rain of fire? The Cordelia I know would never in her right mind have sex with Conner, end of the world or not. I wish Joss or someone wrote a book or an article to verify this cuz it really drives me up the wall.

    Also- did Conner really love Cordelia? If Jasmine was the one that was really puppeteering Cordelia's body, does that mean Conner was just manipulated? He never really 'knew' Cordelia enough to have developed any kind of feeling towards her since their meeting was brief. Was Conner just connected to Cordelia cuz of her amnesia? I know he was lost, lonely and angry regarding Angel and Holtz, not to mention the fact he was raised in a hell dimension. Did Jasmine just exploit Conner's emotions regardless, to get what she wanted? Does Conner after 'Origin' realized Cordelia never loved him, that it was all Jasmine- that he had no true chance with Cordelia?

    Does anyone know of good discussion threads or sites regarding this topic? I looked but couldn't find anything. Anyway, I am sure I have more questions but can't think of them right now. Hope you can help ease my mind.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Obsessed View Post
    I recently purchased the DVDs for Angel Season Three, Four and Five and have been catching up a lot. So I have a lot of unanswered that I hope some of you can answer.

    Skip helped arranged for Jasmine to have Cordelia become a half-demon to pave the way for Jasmine's birth in Season Four. I was under the impression that The Powers were responsible for Cordelia's demoness yet at the same time were not aware of Jasmine's plans. If this is the case, either way- does that mean Cordelia was meant to become a half-demon anyway since humans are not fit to have the visions? The woman Tammy, another human who also had the visions, voiced that humans were not meant to have the visions. Was this a ruse to lure Cordelia? Since Skip was clearly in cahoots with Jasmine, does that mean the alternate reality where Cordelia was an actress also a trick? Or perhaps it was an actual journey that Cordelia was meant to take in spite of Skip and Jasmine's true intentions?
    To be honest I don't think that can be definitively answered. The powers implied that they accepted Cordelia's path to have the visions, whether or not it was a mistake is uncertain (the mistake which Skip talks about). The powers then said Death is certain now this fits Cordy perfectly because they didn't say when. Unfortunately it's within both the powers interest and Jasmine's for Cordy to live so we can never tell.

    I have a hard time believing that Jasmine maneuvered everyone's lives like chese pieces. Before Season Four- I always felt everyone created their own fate- like Cordelia's visions and demon status. I felt it was meant to happen to her, to help Angel fight evil and personally help her grow in to a better person. Then Skip stated in 'Inside Out', it was all arranged to make Jasmine's birth a reality. When he said this- I felt everything was ruined, the gang's actions, meant nothing, that it had no signifance because Jasmine supposely made it happen. I would have believed Jasmine's arrival if it were in a form of hitchhiking, where she looked for the right opportunity to jump on to a speeding car. For instance- Cordelia's ascension, I would have accepted that as an chance for Jasmine to hitch a ride 'with' or 'in' Cordelia. Am I alone in this? I always feel sad when I watch the first three seasons because of what Skip said. It feels like they tarnished Angel's mission and the lives around him.

    "The powerful control everything accept our will to choose"

    Gunn says something similar. I've always believed Jasmine was a skilled manipulator who can get a lot of what she wants. This isn't unlike say someone like Holland Manners, but it's human's desire not to accept that which makes them strong. Jasmine planned a heck of a lot I'm sure but she didn't presumably plot her own death at the hands of Connor. The forces of evil will always try to undermine the forces of good and their apparent powerlessness but it's up to champions not to accept that.


    I read that Joss had different plans for the Jasmine storyline but Charisma's pregancy change the story arc. Does anyone know what his plans were? Does anyone know why he couldn't bring Charisma back for more episodes in Season Five?
    No, I don't know what the plans were hrug:

    While Season Four has some really strong episodes yet as the whole, I hated it. I know that its been said that Jasmine really seduced Conner, nor Cordelia. However, I am confused about this. I know in 'Spin the Bottle', Jasmine's personity woke up but was it slowly? Was she starting to take control of the steering wheel? Where was Cordelia in all of this- did she appear once in a while or was she in a zombie-like form the whole time?
    Well I liked Season 4 for various reasons but to answer your questions, as far as I'm aware Cordy was conscious but unable to act since Spin The Bottle.

    When Cordelia realized she slept with Conner- she seemed pretty shocked, does that mean it was really 'her' or all an act on Jasmine's part? If it was Cordelia, didn't she realized she was seducing Conner during the rain of fire? The Cordelia I know would never in her right mind have sex with Conner, end of the world or not. I wish Joss or someone wrote a book or an article to verify this cuz it really drives me up the wall.
    I'm fairly sure Cordy would never do that and I think it was all an act to fool Connor, and of course us, but I too wish it was known definitively.


    Also- did Conner really love Cordelia? If Jasmine was the one that was really puppeteering Cordelia's body, does that mean Conner was just manipulated?
    I think Connor wanted to feel like he belonged. Faux Cordy gave him that.

    He never really 'knew' Cordelia enough to have developed any kind of feeling towards her since their meeting was brief. Was Conner just connected to Cordelia cuz of her amnesia? I know he was lost, lonely and angry regarding Angel and Holtz, not to mention the fact he was raised in a hell dimension. Did Jasmine just exploit Conner's emotions regardless, to get what she wanted?
    The answer to most of those questions is yes. Jasmine was just that, a very skilled manipulator.

    Does Conner after 'Origin' realized Cordelia never loved him, that it was all Jasmine- that he had no true chance with Cordelia?
    Not sure, we'll have to see in possible spin offs.

    Does anyone know of good discussion threads or sites regarding this topic? I looked but couldn't find anything. Anyway, I am sure I have more questions but can't think of them right now. Hope you can help ease my mind
    .

    No, I don't, perhaps googling may help.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Obsessed View Post
      Does anyone know of good discussion threads or sites regarding this topic? I looked but couldn't find anything. Anyway, I am sure I have more questions but can't think of them right now. Hope you can help ease my mind.
      Try BW's Digging Into The Classics section. There is a thread called "Who's Captain of the Ship - Cordelia season four" which goes into great detail about everything that happens in this season.
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      • #4
        I quite agree with you Obsessed, I really hated most of S4. But Cordy's character assasination began with Birthday, and for me, I never liked her from that point on. Whatever the original writing plan was, it must have been better because S4 was a huge bust in the overall story arc scheme...the only redeeming qualities of S4 was Faith's short arc in the middle. It's really a shame that a great character that was Cordy pre Ats and Ats 1-3 had to be slaughtered.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by LRae12 View Post
          I quite agree with you Obsessed, I really hated most of S4. But Cordy's character assasination began with Birthday, and for me, I never liked her from that point on. Whatever the original writing plan was, it must have been better because S4 was a huge bust in the overall story arc scheme...the only redeeming qualities of S4 was Faith's short arc in the middle. It's really a shame that a great character that was Cordy pre Ats and Ats 1-3 had to be slaughtered.
          I wouldn't put it that strongly...during season 4 it wasn't her, it was Jasmine, so it's not a true character assasination (except in the sense of her character actually being all but asasinated physically, lol), and durign season 3 in Birthday and beyond she often kept her spunk and humor, just became a bit more caring and concerned--but she ahd been developing in this way throughout the series, ever since TSILA when she's cursed and wakes up after seeing all that pain, saying, "We have to help them!" You see it in TVT, before Birthday, and yet you consider that to be okay! I don't see how Cordy's behavior and actions in Birthday are in any way out of lien with the person she had been becoming throughout the series, especially in the beginning of season 3--if she was ready to sacrifice herself and keep the visions for Angel's sake in TVT, why is it so OOC for her to do so in Birthday? And she was certainly still her wise-craking self throughout the epp--so what's the problem with it?
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          • #6
            Originally posted by sherrilina View Post
            I wouldn't put it that strongly...during season 4 it wasn't her, it was Jasmine, so it's not a true character assasination (except in the sense of her character actually being all but asasinated physically, lol), and durign season 3 in Birthday and beyond she often kept her spunk and humor, just became a bit more caring and concerned--but she ahd been developing in this way throughout the series, ever since TSILA when she's cursed and wakes up after seeing all that pain, saying, "We have to help them!" You see it in TVT, before Birthday, and yet you consider that to be okay! I don't see how Cordy's behavior and actions in Birthday are in any way out of lien with the person she had been becoming throughout the series, especially in the beginning of season 3--if she was ready to sacrifice herself and keep the visions for Angel's sake in TVT, why is it so OOC for her to do so in Birthday? And she was certainly still her wise-craking self throughout the epp--so what's the problem with it?

            Ok, first, what is TVT? I'm not very hip on computer-speak and initals yet...:

            When I said her character began to be assasinated, I meant that from that point on IMO, with the becoming half demon crap storyline, her character began to change and move away from what I loved about Cordelia. In Season 4, though "technically" Jasmine, which wasn't revealed until mid-way through the season, Cordy's character and/or storyline was deplorable and insulting to me, as a fan, that a character that I love and considered one of my favorites became unrecognizable to me. The second half of season 3 wasn't necessarily an affront to me in any way, but Birthday signifies the beginning of the storyline that ruined Cordelia's character and the premature departure of that character from the series.
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            • #7
              LaRae-

              I believe TVT reagards to the episode- That Vision Thing when Cordelia's visions manifested physically.

              I actually liked the half-demon storyline. For me, I felt her actions in Birthday showed how much she has grown since high school. My problem is-the amensia storyline, her werid 'connection' with Conner, her avoiding Angel- everything. When she got her memory back (if she ever really did, as it could have been Jasmine) through Lorne's spell, she said she couldn't go back to Angel because she saw everything he did as Angelus. I felt this was out of character. I think the real Cordelia would have been okay with it. I just can't see her dismissing Angel cuz of his past.

              I also don't think she would have turned to Conner like that. Its just all werid to me. I do not see Cordelia at all in Season Four... that's why its confusing to me. When was it 'Cordelia'? Or was it Jasmine the whole time and was she channeling Cordelia... trying to fool the gang and the audience.

              I have been to the thread- Who's Captain of the Ship - Cordelia season four but I can't access it. Thus why I brought it up here... plus the episodes are fresh in my mind since I just got the DVDs.

              What I don't get is this- Skip said to the gang he let Angel win the fight to free Billy from the prison fire. I don't understand why letting Angel defeat Skip would contribute the birth of Jasmine. Also- how would Jasmine been able to make sure that Sahjahn would rewrite the prophesy? I get the impression that Sahjahn worked that out himself, not with the help with anyone- so how could Jasmine make sure this would happen? I just have a problem that Jasmine was able to carefully construct the path to her birth like that- from the moment Cordelia got her visions. It just seems way too far fetched to me. And because of this- my spirit feels dampened when I watch Season One... knowing that Cordelia never had a chance, that her flame would be washed out years later because of Jasmine. It really irks me. I was hoping towards the Season Four finale- that Cordelia would wake up, that something would happen to explain everything. I wasn't content with 'You're Welcome' because they did it very lightly. I wanted more... and I just... I think they ruined Cordelia's storyline. And years later since the show ended, it still bugs me.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Obsessed View Post

                What I don't get is this- Skip said to the gang he let Angel win the fight to free Billy from the prison fire. I don't understand why letting Angel defeat Skip would contribute the birth of Jasmine.
                Well Skip's a Mercenary so he could have been in league with someone else at the time as well, possible getting kick backs from Jasmine, other higher powers and indeed W&H. With a double dealer like Skip it's hard to tell.

                Also- how would Jasmine been able to make sure that Sahjahn would rewrite the prophesy? I get the impression that Sahjahn worked that out himself, not with the help with anyone- so how could Jasmine make sure this would happen? I just have a problem that Jasmine was able to carefully construct the path to her birth like that- from the moment Cordelia got her visions. It just seems way too far fetched to me.
                Well anyone, human, demon or deity can be a skilled manipulator and I think that's what Jasmine was. Holland Manners was an amazing manipulator and he was only human so someone like Jasmine with her immeasurable age amy be able to pull a few strings or indeed take advantage and adapt if things didn't go according to her original plan.

                And because of this- my spirit feels dampened when I watch Season One... knowing that Cordelia never had a chance, that her flame would be washed out years later because of Jasmine. It really irks me. I was hoping towards the Season Four finale- that Cordelia would wake up, that something would happen to explain everything. I wasn't content with 'You're Welcome' because they did it very lightly. I wanted more... and I just... I think they ruined Cordelia's storyline. And years later since the show ended, it still bugs me.

                I think many feel as you do. In my view Cordy's heroism will never be extinguished and if anything it makes her death and violation more emotive to me. It was also amazing after everything she still believes in the PTBs.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Obsessed View Post
                  LaRae-

                  I believe TVT reagards to the episode- That Vision Thing when Cordelia's visions manifested physically.
                  Thank you...I had a feeling she was referring to an episode, but my mind was drawing a blank!


                  I just have a problem that Jasmine was able to carefully construct the path to her birth like that- from the moment Cordelia got her visions. It just seems way too far fetched to me. And because of this- my spirit feels dampened when I watch Season One... knowing that Cordelia never had a chance, that her flame would be washed out years later because of Jasmine. It really irks me. I was hoping towards the Season Four finale- that Cordelia would wake up, that something would happen to explain everything. I wasn't content with 'You're Welcome' because they did it very lightly. I wanted more... and I just... I think they ruined Cordelia's storyline. And years later since the show ended, it still bugs me.

                  Exactly, well said. It's not that I ever hated Cordelia, on the contrary, I truly loved her character, but like you said they ruined her by the crap storyline, and never resolved it satisfactorily.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kana View Post
                    Well Skip's a Mercenary so he could have been in league with someone else at the time as well, possible getting kick backs from Jasmine, other higher powers and indeed W&H. With a double dealer like Skip it's hard to tell.
                    I am not sure that W&H was involved in with the birth of Jasmine. They were surprised by it and it seemed like to me they didn't want it to occur.

                    Originally posted by kana View Post
                    I think many feel as you do. In my view Cordy's heroism will never be extinguished and if anything it makes her death and violation more emotive to me. It was also amazing after everything she still believes in the PTBs.
                    I do find some comfort that Cordelia still believed in the PTB after all that time, so it shows the goodnes in her. I just wish they added more to her storyline to give me and everyone the closure we desire. I'd like to have that feeling where something good came out of Cordelia's death but I am not finding it. Thus why its hard for me to watch Season Four. I want to enjoy the episodes, you know cuz I think they were good just minus the Jasmine/Conner crap.

                    My thing with the Cordelia/Jasmine situation- was if Jasmine woke up after Lorne did the spell in Spin the Bottle, was it Jasmine talking to Angel at the end? Or was it Cordelia and did she really feel scared enough at what she saw in her vision to avoid Angel? It's clear when Cordelia stabbed Lilah, that it was Jasmine but... my question is was it Cordelia at first? Then Jasmine just slowly took over?
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                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=Obsessed;26601]
                      I am not sure that W&H was involved in with the birth of Jasmine. They were surprised by it and it seemed like to me they didn't want it to occur.
                      No I didn't mean that. If I remember correctly Skip deliberately lost to Angel in That Vision Thing and of course that played out in W&H favour. Why would Skip do this? They may not have known however about Skip's other dealing which is my point. Skip goes where the deal is, so he could be working with all sorts with different agendas. In short, his dealing with W&H and Billy may have had nothing to do with Jasmine, it was a seperate job/deal.


                      I do find some comfort that Cordelia still believed in the PTB after all that time, so it shows the goodnes in her. I just wish they added more to her storyline to give me and everyone the closure we desire. I'd like to have that feeling where something good came out of Cordelia's death but I am not finding it. Thus why its hard for me to watch Season Four. I want to enjoy the episodes, you know cuz I think they were good just minus the Jasmine/Conner crap.
                      Her death was meaningless but she added meaning to it in YW. I don't know why but I like things like that because the way I see it, most death is meaningless but if something positive, like getting a champion back on track, can come out of it then at least she went out in the best way possible considering the situation. I must admit, I liked the Jasmine and Connor crap. :blush:

                      My thing with the Cordelia/Jasmine situation- was if Jasmine woke up after Lorne did the spell in Spin the Bottle, was it Jasmine talking to Angel at the end? Or was it Cordelia and did she really feel scared enough at what she saw in her vision to avoid Angel? It's clear when Cordelia stabbed Lilah, that it was Jasmine but... my question is was it Cordelia at first? Then Jasmine just slowly took over?
                      I was under the impression that it was all Jasmine. Cordy wanting to be alone and away from Angel with Connor would have served the purpose of throwing Angel off. That was my view anyway but the other theory is possible I guess.

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                      • #12
                        ooohhh...i am not a cordelia/connor/jasmine fan...i just dont nkow what it is about that story line, but i just didnt like it. I feel as if it took away the essance of who cordelia really was. I mean yeah she grew and developed as a chacter...but i just didnt like the whole way it ended. I think she had so much more potential, and was wasted in the end.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Obsessed View Post
                          My thing with the Cordelia/Jasmine situation- was if Jasmine woke up after Lorne did the spell in Spin the Bottle, was it Jasmine talking to Angel at the end? Or was it Cordelia and did she really feel scared enough at what she saw in her vision to avoid Angel? It's clear when Cordelia stabbed Lilah, that it was Jasmine but... my question is was it Cordelia at first? Then Jasmine just slowly took over?
                          What vision? I don't think the clip of the Beast opening his eyes was a vision, I think it was an indicator that the Beast awakened when Jasmine awakened on earth in Cordy thanks to the memory spell. I see the expression on her face as "Wow, I am JASMINE, here in this body....I've made it to earth!" and her running away and needing to think things over as "Okay, I have to hide now and regroup, start planning and thinking about how I want to do this exactly--prepare myself for my next moves". It definitely looks like an evil or sinister expression to me, lol. In fact, it's interesting to wonder what's going through Jasmine's head beneath Cordy's exterior after that moment in STB...a lot of new reinterpretations open up of moments.

                          For example, Jasmine-Cordy tells Angel that she looked back and saw all the horrible things Angel did as Angelus--I think that the real Cordy woudl not have done that, that Jasmine probably looked Angelus up while she was plotting in the higher plane, so she could know what she was dealing with and plan accordingly, not to mention lead the FG convincingly to release Angel's soul.....and I think that Jasmine intended for Angel to see her and Connor together to, as Wes remarks later, sow jealousy in Angel and distract him from what was going on in reality, and b/c her pet Beast is the one that plants the idea of going to check on Cordy and Connor ("Did you think you could trust him with HER?") in Angel's head in the first place.

                          But yes, that is Jasmine talking to Angel afterwards--however we can still trust that she wasn't lying when she said "We were" given Cordy's confessions of love for Angel in both Tommorrow (so DUH they were in love!) and YW later.

                          Originally posted by kana View Post
                          Her death was meaningless but she added meaning to it in YW. I don't know why but I like things like that because the way I see it, most death is meaningless but if something positive, like getting a champion back on track, can come out of it then at least she went out in the best way possible considering the situation. I must admit, I liked the Jasmine and Connor crap. :blush:
                          I don't know if her death was meaningless--it's all kind of confusing anyway, given that it later turns out she died without ever having woken up at all. But I do think her death makes YW all the more poignant and excellent as an episode, and if they weren't going to include Cordy in season 5 (stupid Joss!) I think what they did in YW was perfect--I'm glad they gave Cordy a proper send-off and tied up loose ends, b/c her just being in a coma was so lame, and we needed to see real!Cordy one more time (the last time being her in the higher plane in that stupid Vegas epp, really).

                          I'm also glad SMG cancelled so that they thought of bringing Cordy back for the 100th epp in the first place--b/c of course for the 100th epp they'd first think of bringing back an old love interest of 4 seasons ago who's only appeared twice on the show, rather than you know, the last love interest WHO WAS ON THE SHOW FROM THE BEGINNING, and was THE HEART AND SOUL OF THE SHOW!!!!! /rant Sorry, I'm a bit bitter and pissed off about that....*dumbasses*!
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                          Last edited by sherrilina; 02-07-07, 03:36 AM.
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