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  • Angel: After the Fall issue 12, spoiler discussion

    This issue is out tomorrow, and if we've to believe Brian and the people who've already readed the issue; it's a big issue with a lot of new information.

    Spoiler:
    We will learn the name of the Dragon, something about the Shanshu, about Gunn's plans and an old face returns (again).


    The covers:






    I can't wait.
    Last edited by Nina; 03-09-08, 05:42 PM.


  • #2
    I had no idea this was coming out tomorrow, very cool

    For some reason I thought the new 'Time of Your Life' was supposed to be out today? Must be next Wednesday?

    Regarding 'Ats'

    Spoiler:
    Very interested to hear about the Shanshu. It's either going to be a confirmation that the Senior Partners made Angel human, or the bigger twist (in my opinion) that he was actually Shanshued. Or perhaps it's confirmation Angel has definitely signed himself out of the running, or perhaps that his signature on the prophecy holds no bearing as to who it's meant for. Which would actually make more sense, if prophecies could just be signed away Angel and Giles would have handed Buffy a pen in 'Prophecy Girl.'

    Whatever the news is, this is what I'm looking foward to the most.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

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    • #3
      The comics are a day delayed because of Labor Day, a holiday in America. It was last monday. Buffy is also out tomorrow.

      At IDW, Resa (who already has the issue) said about the Shanshu;

      Spoiler:
      And what a twist on the Shanshu prophecy. omg ... completely believable and heartbreaking ... Brian, Joss
      I don't know what her theories were, but I go with the idea that this is the Shanshu. I still don't believe in the signing away of prophecies.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nina View Post
        The comics are a day delayed because of Labor Day, a holiday in America. It was last monday. Buffy is also out tomorrow.
        Ah thanks for that! Gosh, unless the US has for some bizarre reason, two national public days for Labor Day, which I very much doubt, I could swear it was only yesterday Labor Day postponed the comics release. The year is going by so fast!

        New Buffy & Angel on the same day, what a treat


        Spoiler:


        I don't know what her theories were, but I go with the idea that this is the Shanshu. I still don't believe in the signing away of prophecies.
        Spoiler:
        Heartbreaking.. for Angel? Hmm that can't be good! He's never going to catch a break is he?

        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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        • #5
          Spoiler:
          Well the idea that the shanshu isn't a reward or a good thing is probably a slap in the face for Angel. He is made human by evil powers to make sure that he couldn't save those innocent people. The Shanshu is a 'bad' thing.


          edit:

          From Brian's blog;
          Gonna be a good month. We have ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL # 12 this Thursday. Lots of revelations and surprises. CONNOR/KATE FIRST NIGHT artist Stephen Mooney provides the bulk of the art, with a two page spread by Nick Runge that...

          ...well, you'll see.

          I promise you, if you read this book before reading threads about this book, you will enjoy it a hundred times more. Go in fresh, you'll thank me.
          I bet that I can't help myself ...
          Last edited by Nina; 03-09-08, 11:03 AM.

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          • #6
            Yeah I'm a sucker for spoilers... From season 5 onwards for Btvs I knew what was going to happen in every episode before I watched it.. months before I watched it usually

            That's a big advantage of season 8/ After the Fall, you don't get a lot of spoilers as to what's going to happen them bein' comic books an' all.

            There's a lot of hype around this issue though, can't wait!

            ~ Banner by Nina ~

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            • #7
              I don't really mind whatever the shanshu turns out to be as long as its not possible to have signed it away. All the prophecies we've had that people have had to live through and the one of the few that has good implications to it is the one you can sign away? I'd hate that prophecies happen whether people want them to whether they are good or bad, they are prophecied events not something that happens that you agree or disagree to, they just happen whether you like it or not.

              I think it would be an interesting twist if this is from TPTB and that its so happened its turned out not to be the reward eh wanted it to be. Being human where he is makes it harder for him to help people. Could it possibly be that he was turned human and once the senior partners ''sensed'' it they then put LA into hell to make the suffering for him even worse?

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              • #8
                First post in spoilers...

                Spoiler:
                Well, apparently the Shanshu *is* something that can be signed away, but only if it's filed properly (filed with whom is not addressed). But it wasn't, so the Shanshu is in play, and we also get our first explicitly textual confirmation that Angel is/was the vampire to whom it applied. We don't know for sure if his current human state is a result of it, of course, but it probably doesn't matter.

                I liked Angel in his near-death state, and it was damn nice to see Cordelia again, even if she was possibly a hallucination or secretly evil. Don't care. The Cordy/Angel 'shippers will be pleased to have Angel actually tell her he loves her, too. It's nice to see that Angel actually has a real sense of purpose and *wants* to be there to be a hero again, wants to atone like he used to. Too bad it basically goes for nothing since, if Wesley's vision can be believed, he won't.

                And what about that, really? The issue went to some length to make clear that messages from the Powers are almost impossible under the barrier, including Gunn's false visions. So, Wesley's vision for Angel was given by the Partners, and while my own rule is to trust all exposition unless the story gives you a reason not to (ex: that the amulet had power that would help in Season 7, that the Slayers are fighting humanity and it's not about men and women in season 8), it's from *The Partners*. I do like that Angel would rather just go ahead and die than be a vampire again and evil.

                Cordelia was really well-written, aside from "You're Welcome", most I've enjoyed Cordy since early Season 3.

                I still have Gwonnor hope -- if there's anyone that can understand doing the wrong thing for love, it's Connor. And once Gwen realizes she backed the wrong horse, she can renounce. She zapped the dragon (Cordy?) and pwnd Spike, but she hasn't substantially interfered with anything going on so far -- Angel was already down when they arrived at Gunn's lair.

                It was a good issue, and pretty good with the detailed exposition.
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                • #9
                  Spoiler:

                  I tried not to look, but I couldn't help myself.

                  He called the dragon 'Cordelia'? Talking about an anti-climax. It's a nice idea ... but after the reactions of the other characters ... I was waiting for something epic.

                  So the legs where those of Cordy, and Angel was probably far gone at that moment.


                  Poor Connor ... this must be an awful day in his already not that beautiful life.
                  Last edited by Nina; 04-09-08, 07:00 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I was only able to flip through this in the store, but in the vision was that a vamped Angel with both Demons and Humans dead around him?

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                    • #11
                      Yes it was -- ostensibly, it's a vision provided by the Partners that answers the long-asked question of Angel's true role in the Shanshu Prophecy.

                      The Dragon's name is explained in a bit more detail, Nina --
                      Spoiler:
                      Angel was crying out for her a lot during his recuperation (shown in "Spike: After the Fall"), and the Dragon thought Angel was taking to him and thought that was his "name".
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                      • #12
                        Oh, that's actually a great idea. I was afraid that it was a sentimental thing, and that would be a bit cheesy.

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                        • #13
                          My thoughts,

                          Spoiler:
                          Read the issue, loved the issue.

                          The Shanshu debate has *finally* been settled. Thank the lord, it's one of those things that have plagued the fandom for years. Now all we need to do is to get an answer on Bangel Vs Spuffy and we'll be done and dusted.

                          And honestly, couldn't be happier with the outcome. It isn't about Gunn, it isn't about Spike, it's about Angel and so it should be. It's been part of his character's journey since season one. You can take Doyle away from him, Connor away from him, Cordy away from him, Gunn away from him but at this point I think it'd be ridiculous to rip anything else away from the guy. It may have been settled, I'm going to have re-read the issue, but was it confirmed the Senior Partner's were responsible for the Shanshu? And was it confirmed wether or not Angel has actually Shanshued or if the Shanshu is just about him? Mmm not good I don't know these things, I need to have a re-read me thinks.

                          The Gwen/Connor/Spike scene was rather good. Must admit I have no idea who Spike's referring to in regards to the "psychopath" and decides and lies who he followed for decades. No clue whatsoever, I don't think it fits with Dru at all and I can't think of anyone else, Angelus doesn't really make sense in the context of the discussion? Not sure about that. I liked Connor's heartbreak though and Gwen confirming that she loves Connor. Spike was a bit hasty with wanting to chop Gwen into tiny pieces though, I get he'd be on the offensive but I found his reaction a bit much? Maybe he's overeacting for Connor's sake, perhaps angry for Connor?

                          The meat of the issue- Cordelia's return. Gotta say I loved how Brian handled this one. As Cordy states, we don't know for certain wether or not it's even really her. It could really be her, it could be a Wolfram and Hart trick or it could simply be Angel imagining Cordelia. I choose the latter, it makes it easier for me. I adore Cordy so much but at the end of the day I prefer it if she stayed dead after ?You're Welcome' and her amazing finale scene in that episode. So it totally works for me that Angel's imagining her being there, it makes it easier for him and that's great. But she could really be there, I mean she went into great specifics about her role now and what she can and can't do, what's her area ect so Angel went into a bit of detail convincing himself if it wasn't really her lol. Nevertheless, great stuff and another Cangel moment I didn't totally hate. Couldn't stand the pairing throughout season three/season four, but their final scene in ?You're Welcome' and this scene makes me like it. It's the whole friends thing but romance entwined within it as well, and further confirmation that Angel *does* love Cordy.

                          In regards to calling the dragon Cordy.. Meh? I don't really get the reactions from everyone who learnt the name, it's not that silly really. I think something like Mandy would have better suited the reactions. It's nothing major though, it's nice that the dragon assumed the name rather than Angel giving the dragon the name, and it's nice that it was confirmed he was speaking to Cordy through all his blinding torment.

                          And the final reveal.. just wow. What a brutal, horrific image. Angel knows what part he's going to play now.. can't believe we finally got an answer.. and poor Angel. And hey.. he cried, he had a tear when he found out, which is exactly what I was hoping we got from Angel this series, which is fantastic.

                          And the fact Angel would rather die than be an evil vampire again... kudos, thank god. I have very little hope left in me that he won't remain human after this series wraps up, but at least we know he is against turning back into a vamp.

                          The art was also fantastic... some of the panels, in particular with Wesley, were amazing. One of my favourite shots was when Gwen said "shut up Spike" and blasted him away, the expression on Gwen's face totally captured the actress' portrayal of her in the televised seasons. And they were some fantastic images of Cordy and Gunn as well.

                          ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                          • #14
                            Doyle, coming soon. What's with that? I'm no fan of returning dead characters. Especially not after a fantastic last scene like Doyle had.


                            Spoiler:
                            Chilling issue, I will read it again to catch some new things ... because I rushed a bit.

                            Loved the return of Cordy, it was done very well. And Angel is really on his best when he is with her. She was really important again. I agree with Mogs about what he said about her, so I won't repeat it all.

                            Wesley, difficult ... can we trust the guy? His job was to get Angel out of the picture ... and he did with showing that image. I really hope that he wasn't lying, because I was so happy to see Wesley care about Angel. If it was a lie, Cordelia could be a lie as well.

                            Gunn is still tragic and still twisted. I don't know what to think about his ... he is so different as the other evil vampires. He is evil, but there is something about him.

                            Angel is dead ... he is dead. I'm happy that he wanted back to help, but decided after the vision that he would only hurt them ... and that he picked death to help others ... not because he gave up. No glory, no swandive ... poor guy. I really don't know what to say about that, I know that he will return, there are 5 issues left and Angel:Aftermath is there as well. But Angel died in this issue. And if Wesley (or the SP) didn't lie, he will come back (as a vampire) and he will kill all those people. The worst thing, that wasn't Angelus ... it was the vampire with a soul.

                            I loved Mooney's art, sometimes too much shadow ... but the most were spot on. The one made by Runge is the most chilling panel I ever saw ...


                            edit:

                            Spoiler:
                            the more I think about it, the more I start thinking that Angel is 'betrayed' by his two best friends. If Cordy and Wesley are both trying to let him die ... it would fit so well in his life. I hope that I'm wrong, because if Wesley was lying, he would also dismiss the information we finally got about the Shanshu ... but I can't help to think that Wesley (who doesn't have much control in the first place) and Cordy (who is maybe not Cordy) are destroying the guy. Why would Wes show Angel that image ... not a nice thing to see in your last moments. If he wanted Angel to be dead, he could let Gunn kill Angel.
                            Last edited by Nina; 11-09-08, 01:28 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Spoiler:
                              So I just got to read it, and I'm totally not convinced that the vision that Wesley gives him is on the up and up.

                              I have two reasons to think this:-

                              a. There is textual evidence to support that the SP didn't know what side he'd be on during this apocalypse:-

                              Nathan: "The prophecies all agree that when the final battle is waged, he plays a key role."
                              Lindsey: "Good for him."
                              Nathan: "Which side he's on is the grey area, and we're gonna continue making it as grey as possible.


                              EDIT: I've just realised, if the SP knew all along that Angel would be on the black hat side in the apocolypse, then why with all the mind games from the start of S1. If he was always going to do this, then why not leave him alone and let him just go there anyway. Killing a few demons on the way woouldn't bother them after all.

                              b. The issue quite clearly states that this is all about Angel, trying to get Angel to that place where the vampire with a soul would be on the side of evil in the apocalypse - especially since his time at W&H means he was already half way down that road. If the whole LA in hell thing is his personal hell, then it makes sense that this is another part of it because he would have nightmares about that, being Angel and all.

                              Also, I don't believe anything that comes from the Senior Partners through Wesley. Their trick with Fred and him didn't work, so they've learnt that they've got be more subtle, and they know Angel a lot better than Wes too. Giving Angel a vision of himself as the "apocolypter" could go two ways and he chose death but like the First Evil said in Amends "That's not the plan - but it will do". Even the appearance of Cordy might be something to do with them messing with his head.

                              As for "Doyle, coming soon". I immediately picked up on that. I think it might be to mess with our heads a little. OK so I can totally buy that the comic could go down the road of bringing him back from the dead to help Angel (lame I agree), but it could be more than that - Angel's now had a vision/hallucination/dream of Cordelia, then it would make perfect sense that he could do the same with Doyle. If the Cordy appearance is from the partners, then a Doyle appearance could actually be from the PTB. The actual image seems to be very symbolic:-


                              A nun with weapons? A force of good to fight when they wouldn't normally be expected to do so? Sound very much like Doyle to me...
                              Last edited by ciderdrinker; 05-09-08, 11:47 AM.
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                              • #16
                                Great thoughts, and I agree with them.

                                Spoiler:
                                It's so sad if Angel is killed by his three best friends (Gunn stabbed him, and Cordy and Wes finished it.)

                                I saw the words Doyle, coming soon ... but I was so suprised to see that, that I missed the Nun with weapons. Great image.
                                Last edited by Nina; 05-09-08, 12:30 PM.

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                                • #17
                                  thoughts on the illyria/nina page:
                                  Spoiler:
                                  i have a question about the illyria/nina page...

                                  is this another time-slip page? we have illyria's background change and nina's hair/outfit changes a few times.

                                  pink-haired nina is in a panel that looks like the wall is made out of steel. futuristic?

                                  and in another frame, the one with nina suddenly wearing the same blue tracksuit she was wearing the day after the gang moved back into the hyperion... the interesting thing... there's a baby crib in the room. now, the scene that pops out the most of nina in that tracksuit is angel waking up in his room at the hyperion... likely the same room that once held baby connor's crib. a reference?

                                  i think we have a 3rd time-slip page... interestingly, with nina now in both the future (?) and back when connor was a baby.


                                  general thoughts:
                                  Spoiler:
                                  LOVED this issue. best issue thus far. heartbreaking. and i even didn't hate the dragon's name (which i would have despised if it hadn't been a misunderstanding from the dragon).

                                  i also liked the 3-possibilities ambiguity of whom angel was seeing/speaking to in his out-of-body experience. cordelia (or was it?)'s appearance was handled perfectly. though, the reference to the leaf fluttering would suggest cordy was sent to show angel that vision of angelus while he was dying.

                                  angel wishing to die a human death rather than become angelus again... ah, why i love angel. classic angel. and heartbreaking. if this were on the show, it'd be one of my favorite episodes.
                                  Last edited by NileQT87; 06-09-08, 04:24 AM.

                                  "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                  "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                                    thoughts on the illyria/nina page:
                                    Spoiler:
                                    i have a question about the illyria/nina page...

                                    is this another time-slip page? we have illyria's background change and nina's hair/outfit changes a few times.

                                    pink-haired nina is in a panel that looks like the wall is made out of steel. futuristic?

                                    and in another frame, the one with nina suddenly wearing the same blue tracksuit she was wearing the day after the gang moved back into the hyperion... the interesting thing... there's a baby crib in the room. now, the scene that pops out the most of nina in that tracksuit is angel waking up in his room at the hyperion... likely the same room that once held baby connor's crib. a reference?

                                    i think we have a 3rd time-slip page... interestingly, with nina now in both the future (?) and back when connor was a baby.


                                    general thoughts:
                                    Spoiler:
                                    LOVED this issue. best issue thus far. heartbreaking. and i even didn't hate the dragon's name (which i would have despised if it hadn't been a misunderstanding from the dragon).

                                    i also liked the 3-possibilities ambiguity of whom angel was seeing/speaking to in his out-of-body experience. cordelia (or was it?)'s appearance was handled perfectly. though, the reference to the leaf fluttering would suggest cordy was sent to show angel that vision of angelus while he was dying.

                                    angel wishing to die a human death rather than become angelus again... ah, why i love angel. classic angel. and heartbreaking. if this were on the show, it'd be one of my favorite episodes.
                                    The timeslips are pretty consistently about Illyria -- I think the baby Connor panel was more him just getting his memory back. But we've seen timeslipping with Illyria around Angel, around Spike, and now Nina, too. It's always when she's pissed off. I think maybe they'll need that to get out of Hell A somehow, maybe it ties into the Issue #14 cover.

                                    If we trust the vision that the Partners allowed Angel to see through Wes, I think we have to assume Cordy was there to convince Angel to let himself die so that it didn't come true.
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                                    • #19
                                      Spoiler:
                                      you don't actually see baby connor, but you do see a crib suddenly appear in the room illyria is time-slipping into different times/places. there's nothing angel-related in the scene and nothing to do with him realizing anything. it's just a time-slip into a room in the hyperion circa 2001-2002. i just thought it was neat to point out the crib. it dates the time-slips as being from the relatively near past (also noting that i sort of associate that blue tracksuit with angel waking up in his old room at the hyperion and nina being there) and in the distant future (pink-haired nina and the steel walls).

                                      so far we've seen angel, spike and spider clearly in fray's timeline (complete with the blade runner imagery). and now we see nina with pink hair and the room changing into a steel one. i wonder if after the fall is going to eventually spit out los angeles in fray's era. it would be the perfect way to explain how demons and vampires got back into the world after buffy's end of magic. we've now had a non-immortal (nina) be seen in a future time-slip, which means that it isn't just immortal characters who might make it to 2300 A.D. it would explain why it was necessary to continue ats when joss decided to do btvs season 8.

                                      well, we can probably rule out that it wasn't a hallucination because of the vision (unless it wasn't a vision, but rather angel's fears of becoming angelus again). angel's out-of-body experience with cordy's visit was likely a sent mission from the powers that be to give that vision. it would explain why angel was pulled out of his dying body.
                                      Last edited by NileQT87; 06-09-08, 08:16 AM.

                                      "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                      "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                                      • #20
                                        I've been thinking about the whole vision thing and I gotta say I think it could really be a misunderstanding to some extent.

                                        All we see is Angel(us), walking through the city over a bunch of dead corpses. We don't know that it is him that caused this carnage. Perhaps some of the demon lords did this and they are continually slaughtering people and the only way to stop them and to save more innocent people is for Angel to become a vampire again. Like HelLA went to hell further because Angel couldn't save them and the only way to do so would be for him to be at the top of his game again, i.e. him becoming a vampire, and that is him pulling the sword out of the dead body in order to finish off whoever caused the carnage.

                                        I dunno, just a random scenario I thought of when I saw the panel.

                                        IMO this is the best issue to date. I have has a LOT of problems with hearing/feeling the characters in past issues, but this one everyone just seemed spot on and amazing. Leave it to Cordy to make it feel like home again
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