How is Angel going to.... (spoilers if havent read past issue 3

[bbutlerau]

... Become a vamp again? I mean he has to...
I vote for Gunn siring him then he somehow gets his soul back... maybe the demon trials ala Spike though i don't see Angelus willingly doing that.

[KingofCretins]

Personally, I think if he becomes revamped, "After the Fall" would have basically ruined and thrown away the entire idea of him ever becoming human. And if the net effect is the becomes a souled vampire without his curse, it would just be this really weak fanservice.

[ciderdrinker]

... Become a vamp again? I mean he has to...

I'm in two minds about this. On one hand - what makes you think that he has to become a vamp again? Angel's story has always been about redemption and that no matter what you do you can never make up for your past, so I guess in that framework then him being returned to a vampire again would fit, but after 5 years of dangling the Shanshu in front of him, and then to have it taken away from him....ouch! Also, I would imagine that KoC is right and it would be complete fanservice to make him a uncursed souled vampire.

Now I'm always up for some Angelus, but I can't see how his inclusion could be a part of AtF and how the rest would get round it - it's not like Willow's gonna just pop round to Hell to help out.

I'm still convinced that this Hell is a personal one for all in LA - like if the BtVS ep Nightmares had happened to a whole city - and once Angel and gang return things to normal (which they surely will) then everything will be the same as it was before the CoBT was taken down, i.e. Angel still a vamp, gunn not a vamp etc. In that situation I can see the PTB Shanshuing Angel for real, him being able to relax and (as Connor puts it) "sit it out and be human", be happy about it rather than it be an inconvenience, find a life for himself that doesn't involve making amends but does involve kicking a lttle evil booty from time to time. Angel and Buffy's world has lots of humans fighting on the side of good - you don't have to be a vampire to help! But that sounds like a bit too much closure/happy ending for a story about never being able to make up for your deeds

On the other hand we know that Joss likes to go for the pain, and for Angel to become a vamp again and the resulting depression and possible "grey" period might be interesting....

[Nina]

I think that it would be pretty weak if Angel would be a vampire again. Angel being a human gives us many great new storylines, it gives the big story a boost and it's a great development for Angel who has to learn to work with others. Besides, there were already two moments that Angel gave up his dream for the greater good (IWRY, NFA) ... stop walking in circles ... and go further for once.

I'm a big fan of the human hero, and in the current situations of both teams ... we only have Xander & Wood who are 'normal' humans ... and team Angel is supernatural for 100% (except Angel) ... there is no need for Angel's superpowers to return. Spike, Groo, Connor, Illyria and te dragon have enough powers to win the fights. And it's not like Angel will stop fighting the good fight or would be a fulltime happy peppy guy. Angel is still Angel, he still feels the guilt ... he has still issues about who he is. And he still loves to save innocents and to help. Only now he has to work different, which is more interesting than seeing again what we already saw.

I don't see a reason to turn him back into a vampire, at least not for the story. Angel isn't interesting because he is a vampire, but because he is a complex and damaged character. His powers aren't needed, the vampire thing isn't needed to make Angel interesting and the story will work out fine without Angelus and his fangs. I would be deeply disappointed if Joss doesn't have the guts to move on to the next level.

And I agree with ciderdrinker about Angelus, there is no space for him ... please don't waste issues on that psycho.

[sueworld]

Well call me shallow, but Angel wouldn't 'feel' the same character without being a Vampire.

For a start there's still lots of conflict to be gained from that state combined with the fact that I'm afraid Brian's already been somewhat guilty of writing him as If he was still a vampire pocessed of supernatural healing.

I mean all the things he's been through or been asked to do don't real correlate with a normal human beings ability's sadly. It's one thing to have a vampire being dropped of a building not be left dead on the spot, but a human?

So having making him permanently human would effect how subsequent writers write for him.

[Thomas]

Why does everyone think that if Angel was re-vamped, he'd become Angelus? Didn't Liam become Angelus because he was a horrible person to begin with? In my opinion, Angelus is gone. I don't see how how Angelus could return since Angelus was more like Liam. If Angel was sired again, he'd be a vampire who is more like Angel.

[Roses-r-Red]

I think that it would be pretty weak if Angel would be a vampire again. Angel being a human gives us many great new storylines, it gives the big story a boost and it's a great development for Angel who has to learn to work with others. Besides, there were already two moments that Angel gave up his dream for the greater good (IWRY, NFA) ... stop walking in circles ... and go further for once.

I totally agree with this. I don't think Angel would be less of a character if he stays human. He'd still have guilt for sending people to Hell-A and the Gunn issue. Additionally, it would add a new obstacle to the character - his navigation in the human world. We saw a glimpse of Angel in "I Will Remember You" trying to deal with his new life as a human and what he should do next, I'd like to see that go further and see how he will overcome his new limitations and/or gifts that come with being human.

[KingofCretins]

Why does everyone think that if Angel was re-vamped, he'd become Angelus? Didn't Liam become Angelus because he was a horrible person to begin with? In my opinion, Angelus is gone. I don't see how how Angelus could return since Angelus was more like Liam. If Angel was sired again, he'd be a vampire who is more like Angel.

I think it's almost too esoteric -- technically, Darla became a different demon in "Angel" Season 2 than she did when she was sired by the Master. So would Angel be a different demon sired by Gunn or Spike than he was when sired by Darla. If they wanted to explore that, though, they would have done it with Darla.

The distinction notwithstanding, if Angel was revamped, he would again be an evil vampire.

I really do think "After the Fall" would be much worse off for wasting the dramatic tension of Angel being human without exploring *anything* about his humanity and what it means for him other than as a matter of his physical strength and endurance.

[bbutlerau]

I agree having him human is a great storyline, i just dont think he will stay that way. I've read enough comics to see that the norm is that everything kinda reverst to basics between storylines (often by a "crisis" reboot etc lol) the exception to thid i believe will be the Bstman R.I.P arc (comic geeks like me will get that). Lets change tins into "if angel has to become supernautral agasin...how would you do it" notice that i said supernatural... not just vampire.....hmmmm

[vampmogs]

The whole thing would be kind of pointless to make Angel a vampire again when we've hardly even explored what it means to be human for Angel. The story has been (understandably) fixated on many things at once, there hasn't been enough time to explore Angel's humanity to any great extent. It'd be such a waste.

He deserves to be happy for a change.

[bbutlerau]

He cant be happy, we all know Joss loves torturing his characters, name a char which had had an extended level of happiness which hasn't been destroyed....

[vampmogs]

He cant be happy, we all know Joss loves torturing his characters, name a char which had had an extended level of happiness which hasn't been destroyed....

Exactly my point. Even better to nip that in the bud, at least with one character. Not everything has to be doom and gloom all the time in my opinion. And it'd be more of a twist to actually give Angel a happy ending rather than not, seeing as how out of all the characters in the verse he's arguably had one of, if not, the worst life.

Angel never catches a break, wether it be loosing Buffy, loosing Cordy, loosing Doyle, loosing Connor, being sent to a hell dimension, being trapped under the bottom of the ocean or having Wolfram and Hart make it their life ambition to try and manipulate and mess with his head the whole time.

Honestly, I'm kinda expecting it to be another scenario in which Angel does the noble selfless thing and trades his humanity for Gunn or something like that. Once again it'll show how amazingly selfless the guy can be, but once again gives Angel the short hand and it'd be nice to see him end on a happier note for a change.

I don't expect a happy end to ?After the Fall' because we all know there's going to be some big epic cliff-hanger that will be leading us into ?Aftermath' and very rarely are cliff-hangers ever good news.. But at the end of it all it'd be nice if got to retain his humanity.

[allykins]

I'm really interested to see where the writers go with this. On one hand I believe that it will be very hard to carry on the Angel franchise without the vampire with a soul seeing as that was the whole premis for everything. On the other hand I hate hate hate the idea of going back on what they have written. Why write a story arc only to undo it later? Whats the point? There is none. So in that case they have to leave him human and work from there.
And Nina did make some good points for Angel staying human and still being interesting and an intergral part of saving the world so I'd rather see that progress than a regression .

[sueworld]

The whole thing would be kind of pointless to make Angel a vampire again when we've hardly even explored what it means to be human for Angel. The story has been (understandably) fixated on many things at once, there hasn't been enough time to explore Angel's humanity to any great extent. It'd be such a waste.

He deserves to be happy for a change.

So why would being left a human be seen as a totally happy ending? I mean for the reason stated above his ability to fight would be curtailed somewhat. So unless folks are quite happy to read a comic where Spike slashes his way through huge battles whilst Angel shouts encouragement from the sidelines, I can't see how thats gonna work myself. Yeah, thats probaly a simplification, but I think you get my point. Human Angel isn't going to do as much as Vampire Angel, and unless the writers deal with that realistically in upcoming stories, well theres no point in having a human eh?

Also who says that this change in him is even real beyond the barrier? Remember his new state was created as a punishment by Wolfram & Hart, not the Powers, so who's not to say his 'natural state is still that of a Vampire when he's removed from his present environment?

[vampmogs]

So why would being left a human be seen as a totally happy ending?

Nothing is a totally happy ending. But letting him be human, something he's long dreamed for, and no longer having the curse, are far happier than Angel giving all this up yet again, for someone else's own happiness.

I mean for the reason stated above his ability to fight would be curtailed somewhat. So unless folks are quite happy to read a comic where Spike slashes his way through huge battles whilst Angel shouts encouragement from the sidelines, I can't see how thats gonna work myself. Yeah, thats probaly a simplification, but I think you get my point. Human Angel isn't going to do as much as Vampire Angel, and unless the writers deal with that realistically in upcoming stories, well theres no point in having a human eh?

That's where they could try entirely new things. Deal with it, change how Angel has to interact. That's the whole point, it's the kind of thing people want to see. It puts him in a new situation where he's forced to change and be different instead of the safer option of everything returns to normal. I don't see how all these changes would be considered a bad thing?

Also who says that this change in him is even real beyond the barrier? Remember his new state was created as a punishment by Wolfram & Hart, not the Powers, so who's not to say his 'natural state is still that of a Vampire when he's removed from his present environment?

No one says it isn't, but if it is I'm guessing by some people's comments they're going to feel as if it was a cop out.

And do we have confirmation that Angel was created human by Wolfram and Hart? I know he thinks that's the case, I'm pretty sure other characters might even but has it been completely 100% confirmed? I didn't think it had? Did I miss something pivotal?

[Nina]

And why would it be bad if it was W&H who made him human. There is nowhere a rule that the powers that be are the powers who give him the shanshu. It would fit in his world, the thing he wanted the most is not a reward but a way to make him less dangerous. I love the idea that this is the shanshu, what would be the other option? ... giving him the shanshu like the scenario in his nightmare where Spke gets the shanshu from a fairy?

The idea that the shanshu isn't coming when he is 'done', when the world is saved and nobody needs him anymore as some kind of 'thank you' ... would not only be cheesy, it wouldn't fit in his life. His dream turning out to be a burden is much more like it.

[sueworld]

That's where they could try entirely new things. Deal with it, change how Angel has to interact. That's the whole point, it's the kind of thing people want to see. It puts him in a new situation where he's forced to change and be different instead of the safer option of everything returns to normal. I don't see how all these changes would be considered a bad thing?

Worse case scenario "This week Angel goes to the post office and spends three hours in the queue complaining that his backs playing him up again."

I have to say in all seriousness that he would be out of his depth when it came to some things compared to how he was when he was a vamp, just as other human characters are and I have to say we already have a ton load of those.

For a start he wouldn't be able to hurl himself into battle like he used to, as If he got injured he'd be more vulnerable. So the action scenes would have to 'downsized' If they were to stand a chance of looking even remotely realistic.

Thats If the writers write him in realistic manner of course.

Personally I like my characters to have a 'pinch of spice' and Angel being a Vamp does that for me.

[Roses-r-Red]

I actually see human Angel being somewhat like Giles - extremely intelligent, experienced with magic and supernatural lore and extensive (more so than Giles) fighting experience.

[KingofCretins]

Lets change tins into "if angel has to become supernautral agasin...how would you do it" notice that i said supernatural... not just vampire.....hmmmm

I think him ending up an other sort of meta-human than a vampire would be the worst sort of pandering to fanboys and fangirls. As would him going back to vampire-with-a-soul, Spike-style. The only reason to do it is to say "well, now he's a superhero who doesn't have to brood and can have all the sex he wants".

The whole thing would be kind of pointless to make Angel a vampire again when we've hardly even explored what it means to be human for Angel. The story has been (understandably) fixated on many things at once, there hasn't been enough time to explore Angel's humanity to any great extent. It'd be such a waste.

Absolutely, there's been no exploration at all of what it means for Angel to be human. Not even superficially, other than a reference to shaving. Shaving and being injured, that's all being human means to him so far. This is the story that's driven Angel's character arc for four full seasons of television, and it would be thrown away for nothing after having been delivered in a perfectly Joss-style twist. Really, this was the *only* way to make him human without it being goofy, because it *costs*, just like bringing Buffy back *cost*, which we knew was very important to Joss.

He deserves to be happy for a change.

And he's not even all that happy, so nobody could argue it deprives him of brooding and drama.

Also who says that this change in him is even real beyond the barrier? Remember his new state was created as a punishment by Wolfram & Hart, not the Powers, so who's not to say his 'natural state is still that of a Vampire when he's removed from his present environment?

Well, Gunn sort of proved this -- his device in Issue #12 stripped down every magical barrier and benefit that Angel had thrown up. If his humanity itself was just another ongoing spell, it probably would have been peeled away, too.

And why would it be bad if it was W&H who made him human. There is nowhere a rule that the powers that be are to people who give him the shanshu. It would fit in his world, the thing he wanted the most is not a reward but a way to make him less dangerous. I love the idea that this is the shanshu, what would be the other option? ... giving him the shanshu like the scenario in his nightmare where Spke gets the shanshu from a fairy?

It fanwanks himself -- when he signed over the prophecy in "Not Fade Away", he wasn't opting out of the benefit, he was deferring the power to fulfill it to Wolfram & Hart.

Worse case scenario "This week Angel goes to the post office and spends three hours in the queue complaining that his backs playing him up again."

Because there have never been compelling stories about humans vs. the supernatural. Why wouldn't he just be... I dunno, Dean Winchester?

I have to say in all seriousness that he would be out of his depth when it came to some things compared to how he was when he was a vamp, just as other human characters are and I have to say we already have a ton load of those.

Out of his depth sounds suspiciously like... compelling storytelling! And what "ton load"? There are exactly *three* human characters in the whole Buffyverse who don't have or have never had a "superpower", don't use magic, and aren't super-smart. Gunn, Wood, and Xander. That's *it*.

For a start he wouldn't be able to hurl himself into battle like he used to, as If he got injured he'd be more vulnerable. So the action scenes would have to 'downsized' If they were to stand a chance of looking even remotely realistic.

Or he would eventually just be a more literal Batman figure than he was in "Angel" Season 1 when it could have been called BatAngel.

[sueworld]

Well, Gunn sort of proved this -- his device in Issue #12 stripped down every magical barrier and benefit that Angel had thrown up. If his humanity itself was just another ongoing spell, it probably would have been peeled away, too.

Err, not Angels personal glamours, but the barrier keeping them in Hell. How do we know that If Angel stepped beyond that and back into the real world his condition would change back? This 'Hell' was a creation of Wolfram and Hart' so they have control there and because of that anything is possible.

Because there have never been compelling stories about humans vs. the supernatural. Why wouldn't he just be... I dunno, Dean Winchester?

Please god no......

Out of his depth sounds suspiciously like... compelling storytelling! And what "ton load"? There are exactly *three* human characters in the whole Buffyverse who don't have or have never had a "superpower", don't use magic, and aren't super-smart. Gunn, Wood, and Xander. That's *it*.

Wes although he has resorted to a limited amount of Magic in the past could be added to that list, until now of course. There's Kate and Fred too of course, but you're right, thats all there are off the top of my head.

You have to ask yourself why there's not that many, maybe because more folks like their character with that extra something then just an ordinarily Joe. I know I do.

Or he would eventually just be a more literal Batman figure than he was in "Angel" Season 1 when it could have been called BatAngel.

*g* Batman 'bought' his powers, or he'd be incapable of doing what he wants to do too.