Angel After the Fall, issue #11

[Nina]

This wednesday, it's out.

the first two covers are for this issue

Did we already saw the second cover? I can't remember that one.

[KingofCretins]

Spoilers for "Angel: After the Fall" Issue #11...

Spoiler:

Wow. Apart from Chapter 5, this is my favorite issue so far.

So many things I was expecting from the confrontation between Angel and Gunn, I missed some of the little details -- like the fact that Angel didn't even know going in that it *was* a confrontation. It's a small and in some ways irrelevant detail, but I like that Angel and everyone else instantly assumed Gunn was a rescue operation.

Further, Angel continues to impress me as a reenergized hero. Much of what I found heroic about Angel vanished in Season 5 and ultimately landed them all in Hell-A. Now, as a human, he's been getting it back and then some. I love that he doesn't even just want to arbitrarily kill Gunn. Hell, you can almost hear him thinking "we get out of here and Willow can curse him as long as we don't have to kill him." And most of all, I love how much braver Angel has to be to do what he does without the advantages of being a vampire. I also liked seeing reminders that Angel is actually pretty smart -- like how he decides to try to play Gunn. In the televised seasons, Angel's intellect became a little bit of a punchline at times -- he wasn't the smooth-operating liar and improv artist he was in, for example, 1.04 "I Fall To Pieces" or 2.04 "Untouched" in using fake personas. Here, we see that skill come back as he tries to con Gunn about the visions.

Angel's injuries, while pretty horrifying, are somewhat encouraging to me. I'm a staunch opponent of re-vamping Angel, and the mere fact that Gunn decides not to do it gives me hope that it won't happen -- something else will happen. Maybe Glowy-Just-Let-It-Go-Baby-Cordy with Healing Energy Action is lurking out of frame to heal human Angel. But to re-vamp him now is to either have your main villain just say "actually, on second thought I will turn you", or to have Spike do it. I already saw Josef re-vamp Mick on "Moonlight", so I'm in no hurry to see that story again.

Now to turn to Gunn -- simply awesome. This might seem like a bold statement, but in just a few appearances and this issue's long exposition, Brian Lynch has managed to make Gunn a more riveting and compelling villain than Joss himself was able to make Angelus. Yes, I know "plotted by Joss Whedon", that's not my point. I mean Gunn in "Angel: After the Fall" written by Lynch > Angelus in "Innocence", "Becoming, Part I", and "Becoming, Part II" written by Joss. That is just how impressed I am with how Gunn has developed. He has this sort of evil-but-tragic energy that I think we've only seen anything like with Darla in Season 2 of "Angel". But this is much grander in scale because while Darla was basically evil and loving it again, Gunn really does think he can be the hero. He kills Slayers, he kills women he rescues, but he disconnects that completely from what he does in pursuit of his grand plan. And what a cool idea to give him the visions (if that's what they are)! It has echoes of Harth in "Fray", but is much more A) useful as powers go and B) poignant, since it's something that connects to Angel through both Cordy and Doyle.

General observations -- I loved all the "B" plot stuff at the Hyperion. I love Gwonnor, they are so great. I love Nina still being into Angel and totally love Angel/Nina. I love that everybody implicitly knows they shouldn't tell Spike about Angel being human.

Only complaint, though. The last page is completely incomprehensible to me. Brian, help me out -- is Gwen reacting to something we're not going to see or understand until Chapter 12, or am I just missing something in the visual information that explains what's wrong with her? I mean, I see lightning (possibly hitting the dragon?), some energy happening around her hands, she's crying, Connor's worried about her... did I miss it, or has whatever it is not happened yet? I usually don't have that problem parsing out the action. Maybe it's just me.

[Nina]

Spoiler:

Sounds good, I can't wait. I'm happy that Angel didn't end this issue with being sired by Gunn. And I need a new Nina/Angel (Anna? Ningel?) banner set I guess.
*opens PS*

[ThePoet's<3]

Can't wait to read! Get my copy on Friday.

KoC, am I going to be happy with Runge's artwork? Or should I continue to wear my sackcloth and ashes for Uru...?

The story sounds great so far!

[Nina]

I heard that there were some amazing panels made my Runge. But this is his last issue (), issue 14 - 16 will be done by Urru again. Issue 12 & #13 will be done by somebody else.

[Vampire in Rug]

I'd say this is Runge's best work since his Wesley First Night story.

King, you're not alone in not understanding what's going on in the last panel. I had no idea what was going on either. My only complaint in this issue is that the last panel really should have been drawn better.

Upon further study of the panel, plus Gunn's line "I found her first" I'm guessing that when they landed on the rooftop, Gwen betrayed everyone by zapping the dragon. Did she also zap Spike and Conner? I guess we'll have to wait until next issue to find out.

Not sure how I feel about Angel's injuries. He should be dead almost instantly. Broken back, sword through the gut, wounds from Illyria, plus all the other cuts and scrapes he's gotten into over the past few months all coming back at once? And he's gonna be alive on the floor long enough for the others to get to him? I find that a little hard to buy.

Apart from those two minor complaints (and compared to the rest of the issue, they really are minor) this issue was amazing. Great art, great writing and amazing cover. Angel and Gunn were totally spot on.

[sueworld]

Not sure how I feel about Angel's injuries. He should be dead almost instantly.

Yeah I thought that. I hope it's not going to be another retread of 'Angel surviving a 10 story fall' malarkey again, because as you say that would really be stretching things a tad.

I didn't get what was going on in the last panel either I'm afraid, and the artwork was extremely dodgy in places which didn't help the narrative much.
Great conversation between Gunn and Angel, and in dramatic as well as emotional terms I thought this was the best issue yet, and one that was most akin in feel to the actual show.

[Vampire in Rug]

Yeah I thought that. I hope it's not going to be another retread of 'Angel surviving a 10 story fall' malarkey again, because as you say that would really be stretching things a tad.

What's going to (probably) annoy me is that not only did Angel survive his injuries from the 10-story fall -those injuries are now back, and then some.

I read a fan-theory somewhere (It might have even been here) that as Angel is dying Conner "sires" him into a human with vamp abilities. I think that would be kinda cool and it would allow for Angel to actually die from his injuries before waking up in his new form. Because that's the only way I can see him not dying within the first page of the next issue and even that's a bit of a stretch. Seriously, if Spike tries to pick Angel up and put him on the dragon, Angel should snap in half he's that injured right now.

[Nina]

I've not read the issue yet but I'm very curious how Lynch is going to 'fix' this. We have seen issue 12 covers with;

Spoiler:

Connor holding (a dead?) Angel and one with a grave.

Personally, I'm no fan of the Angel becoming a human with extra powers. I know that a state like that is not much different from being a Slayer or from Connor's powers. But somehow it feel like a cheap fanservice. Angel hated being a vampire but he is insecure about being powerless, to make him a human with powers would be to good to be true for Angel. The idea about Angel standing up from the death would be cool after the piet? cover, but I'm afraid that it won't be as a superhuman.

I hope that Lynch can give us a statisfying answer because it sounds like Angel is already on his way to the other side. And without any change in his state, I won't believe it when he survived it ...

[NileQT87]

i definitely agree.

i *really* don't want angel to become human with special powers. that works for connor because it isn't something he particularly wanted. either plain human or the tragic route of being revamped is the only thing that i think can happen for angel and be interesting. my philosophy on the jossverse has always been d'hoffryn's philosophy--"always go for the pain". revamping angel is definitely going for the pain. it would be wonderful for spike to do it. it would beautifully mirror drusilla revamping darla... another grandchild-to-grandsire vamping. somebody (wesley?) with the curse handy is fine with me.

lynch is best when he pulls back from the comedy (most of his misfires have been comedic--the most egregious being that awful "slayer" cheering) and goes for the drama. personally, i wish he'd go completely for the tragic drama-heavy feel that was ats at its best.

unfortunately, i'm dying to read this issue. dammit.

[Nina]

I'm sorry, but if Spike sires Angel again without a really good reason, I would hate it. The whole sire/child thing is maybe a nice touch ... but Angel hates being a vampire and if Spike sires the guy, it would be pretty bad. The only excuse can be like the one Angel had in 'Why We Fight', Only Lawson could save the others ... if only Angel can save LA ... the story changes. But only in that case.

[NileQT87]

well, yeah. that's exactly what i mean. angel is obviously the one who will ultimately save the day. he always does or tries to do so with what he knows. but i can see the others deciding to save angel. on one hand, angel would like to have a finite life; but on the other, not finishing saving L.A. or not bringing down w&h probably wouldn't be the way he'd want to go out.

he wouldn't want to risk the lives of others for his life to finally be over. and this is ultimately why he didn't want to be human while they were in hell-A. he always sacrifices what he might want for the betterment and helping of others. i think he'd only be happy as a human if there weren't any more supernatural forces he was needed for buffering. angel loves humanity, but he puts himself in the position of defending it from things that can't be handled by humans... which is why he smashed the gem of amarra.

getting the things he wants won't be what he wants until his job is finished and the supernatural threats are gone, imo.

in other words... i've actually narrowed down my suspicions of twilight down to giles, riley and angel.

[Nina]

Am I aloud to send hatemail to Dark Horse when Angel is Twilight?

But back to Angel becoming a vampire again because he is ready to give up his humanity for the world ... We already saw that twice, in IWRY and in NFA. I know, three times is a charm ... but I would prefer a new turn.

Besides, if Spike sires Angel it would be not very helpful because it wouldn't be Angel who stands up .. but Angelus. And I doubt that Willow is visiting anytime soon.

[dinamo]

I don't want Angel to become something else other than a normal human being. he doesn't need super powers to do good in the world. Plus if he was sired would it really be Angelus that stands up? Liam turned into Angelus upon siring, would Angel the human being sired be Angelus or something else altogether? I don't really understand how Angel has survived the injuries he's had as a human so far, I know he's had magical assistance but unless that assistance came instantly he should be dead. I'd like him to someone stay alive, stay human and the next part of the Angel storyline be about how he can do good as a human and getting used to living without powers and the new vunerabilities that brings.

[Nina]

I did read, great issue. Runge paints a beautiful Gunn and he captures Angel, Connor and Spike very well. There were some amazing panels ... the last pages weren't Runge right? .... those looked so weird.

But the story;
I loved the conversations between Angel and Gunn. Gunn is such an interesting and fantastic bad guy ... and Angel shows his best (and maybe weakest) sides as a hero once again. I love how Gunn wants to be Angel and not Angelus, I love how he believes that he is working for the PTB and how twisted he is ... thinking that he is saving the world while he is a monster. He brings me in a new dilemma, I'm always looking at the intention of a character to judge if he is evil or good and not at their deeds, but Gunn found a whole new way of being a twisted bad guy.

So Gwen works with Gunn ... poor Connor. The guy has no luck. It came as a suprise, but I can see Gwen does it. She wants out, and Gunn says that he knows how to do it ... she gave him her virginity, from the whole team ... Gunn was the closest to Gwen. And Gwen was always a selfish character, a criminal who left town when it was getting dangerous. But still, she seems to care about Connor.

Fred keeps annoying me with her naive damsel in distress act. Where is the awesome Fred? I did love how she returned to being Fred when she saw Gunn.

Poor Angel, I agree that he has too many injuries to survive but we saw that before (like Buffy in Chosen) ... I think/hope that we have to see this through the fingers. Still, the 'dead' theme in the #12 covers makes me a little bit scared. I'm a big fan of human Angel especially since both teams (Ats and BtVS) have an overdosis of supernatural characters. And a human hero as the leader would be fresh and it brings the story to a new level. Angel struggles with himself don't really change, neither does his reason to fight ...


I see more than one mention of a mysterious woman (legs and heels are seen), and I can't find them in the issue. Where should I see that woman?

[KingofCretins]

If Angel is re-vamped at this point, it comes close to ruining the entire "After the Fall" series for me. First of all, Angel's humanity is not an on/off switch, and this is already the second time he's been made human. Second, there has been absolutely no exploration of what Angel's humanity actually *means* for him other than as a fighting limitation, and to take it away without ever having explored it is just narrative failure.

Every possible version of revamping him is something we've already seen before, as I counted off in my first post on the thread. The only thing we haven't actually seen or done is Angel, the human, going on with the business of being a champion when not stuck in Hell-A.

If he is turned back into a vampire, let's just never bring up humanity again for Angel. Say this was the Shanshu and, well, he got vamped again. Oh well. Because if he is made a vampire again, ALL the emotional significance of him being made human again later is gone anyway, so just drop that entire storyline.

Nina, the panel you are referring to is in the next issue, Issue #12.

[Nina]

Okay, thanks.


I'm curious about what Joss wants with the character Angel. And if he has the guts to change his iconic vampire into a human. The idea that there will be a day that he can have a family and that he can fit in the world made up for everything that happens to him now (100 years in hell, no chance to be really happy, no real family, being a misfit etc.). At least that's how I always saw it, if you take that away ... there is nothing left to make his pretty awful life better. We all know ... drama is good tv, but I think that Angel becoming human will be much better tv than him making a vampire again.

[ThePoet's<3]

I heard that there were some amazing panels made my Runge. But this is his last issue (), issue 14 - 16 will be done by Urru again. Issue 12 & #13 will be done by somebody else.

OH Praise the Day! Urru comes back!! Can't Wait! Runge does a good job - but he's there with that other Buffy cover artist whose name I have now forgotten. Blech!

Yeah I thought that. I hope it's not going to be another retread of 'Angel surviving a 10 story fall' malarkey again, because as you say that would really be stretching things a tad.

I didn't get what was going on in the last panel either I'm afraid, and the artwork was extremely dodgy in places which didn't help the narrative much.
Great conversation between Gunn and Angel, and in dramatic as well as emotional terms I thought this was the best issue yet, and one that was most akin in feel to the actual show.

I agree the conversations were very good - Lynch has a good capture of Gunn's vernacular. My heart twinged a bit when Angel finally realized Gunn was a vampire. it was very touching. And the explanation Angel gives him of being a vampire was quite insightful.

Am I aloud to send hatemail to Dark Horse when Angel is Twilight?

Yes - because I'm going to send hatemail if it's not RILEY! Riley must be punished.

But back to Angel becoming a vampire again because he is ready to give up his humanity for the world ... We already saw that twice, in IWRY and in NFA. I know, three times is a charm ... but I would prefer a new turn.

Besides, if Spike sires Angel it would be not very helpful because it wouldn't be Angel who stands up .. but Angelus. And I doubt that Willow is visiting anytime soon.

But when I read that Nina I thought HOW COOL! Angelus in HELL?!? WATCH OUT HELL!!

And yes - Gwen turning against the group... I really hate that. Gwen was always a favorite underdeveloped character of mine from Season 4 (about thhe only thing I liked about S4) and was so happy to see her reappear in A:ATF.

Hope this doesn't send Conner over the edge... Angel, Gwen... I see shadows of S4 Connor lurking about...

My favorite part was Spike's "red hanky" explanation!!