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***Nina*** · 05-07-08, 08:24 AM

You want an answer on your last question?

Spoiler:

I just ranted about this in the Bangel thread; but my hate for this is big enough to rant again ...

My biggest problem is not that they question W&H or that they want to have Dana away from an evil lawfirm. Because I get that, W&H is still evil ... and everybody (incl. the Fang Gang) knows that. It's how they do it that makes me hating the scoobies in Damage.

Wesley contacts Giles about Dana and Giles says that he will send their best man.
If team Angel wanted to keep Dana, they would never call Giles, they would keep it quiet. But they do call, so they have no intention in keeping Dana.

After the phonecall, team Buffy is starting to plan the way how they are going to double cross and humiliate team Angel.

Andrew is in LA.
First humiliation, team Buffy does send Andrew who is clearly not their best man. Between all the nonsense, Andrew humiliates Wesley by saying that Wesley (after a simple remark) is smarter than Giles said ... after that, Andrew is being unhelpfull and lame again.

Angel and Wesley did catch Dana, Andrew wants her and Angel says no.
Team Angel had never the intention to keep Dana, but who in their right mind would give a crazy slayer to Andrew so he can roll her to europe? Right, nobody.

There are Slayers now and Andrew is using them to force Angel to give Dana.
First, so there are slayers in town ... and where were those slayers when Dana was running around? Yup, they were nowhere ... team Buffy did send 12 slayers to force Angel to do what they want ... but never to catch Dana. How nice of them.

And than number two; force to get what they want. There is no talking (while Angel wanted to talk, just not with Andrew.) but team Buffy forces team Angel to do what they want and taking away the dignity from team Angel. And it wasn't necessary at all because team Angel always planned to give Dana back to the slayers, it was Buffy showing of her powers to Angel ... with the message; I'm better than you, and I don't have to respect anybody because I'm the strongest.

And a little number 3; Another humiliation;

I got 12 Vampyr Slayers behind me, and not one of them has ever dated you.

We all know that Angel only dated Buffy (and not because she is the slayer), Faith trusts Angel because he deserves that, and not because they dated ... But who gives credits where credits due? So, not cool. Let's say that Angel's looks his only power is and dismiss the good work he does. So much cooler.

"Where do you think my orders came from? News flash—nobody in our camp trusts you anymore. Nobody. You work for Wolfram & Hart. Don't fool yourself... we're not on the same side. Thank you for your help... but, uh...we got it."
Says the person who just used took away the free choice without that it was needed. That sweet, good rapist/murderer Andrew, he is so much better than Angel.

And I don't buy this, Faith wouldn't give Angel up that easily ... nuhuh. But they probably don't really talk to her.

So, they don't trust Angel because he went to W&H. They didn't seem to be against it when Angel gave the amulet who saves their asses. And if you heard Angel talk in Chosen, you knew that he didn't believe that W&H is trustworthy or good.

And after all those years, Angel doesn't deserve a second chance? A little bit more faith? Or a check if he is alright, if they can help him ... or go there and find out why Angel is the CEO of W&H now.
Nope, let's humiliate, hurt and double cross Angel ... what a great plan whoohoo, what are the Scoobies good and what is team Angel evil.

(Meanwhile in the Netherlands; Nina sits before her tv and prays that Angel and Wesley don't listen and have a great come back to humiliate Andrew and his spice girls ..., but no ... instead Nina gets another 'scoobies pretty, MoG bad' moment (Shells) and a whole (disgusting) episode where Angel is provocated and humiated while he tried to save Bufy again. (TGIQ))

I really hope that this isn't over, that Angel will adress this when he sees Buffy again. Because this is way out of line. They can't justify this in any way. It was Buffy showing her power and not caring about the feelings or well-being of Angel.

Okay, I'm done with my rant.

**Nikkolas** · 05-07-08, 08:41 AM

The best comeback for me would've been for him and Wes just to kick all their asses. Show them that it doesn't matter if they're Slayerss because Angel is bette rthan any two of them and could beat them down by himself.
I'm not against violence when it's forced onto you like it was by Andrew and his gang.

**Revan** · 05-07-08, 08:44 AM

I love you Nina you summed up my thoughts perfectly. This is why I hate Buffy. For reasons like this. You might or might not agree but it seems like just a extension of s6 buffy. She has not been the same since her death.

But remember the 1st comic of s8

Spoiler:

It sort of makes me forgive her. I can see Buffy involved and Xander but everybody else I bet did not know angel personally just what they had been told about him. And I think there was a very specific reason andrew was sent. Because they wanted to *** with him.

I can almost see the scoobies as bad guys at the moment in s8.

Spoiler:

Someone please find the flaw in what I am saying. My last statement: Buffy is very much reminding me of early Hitler at the moment.

Nikkolas- It would not work and that would probably have ended up in the scoobies declaring war on angel. Battle Lines would be drawn and we would see who the nice characters are. I can definately see Giles and Faith joining Angel.

***Nina*** · 05-07-08, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Revan View Post

I love you Nina you summed up my thoughts perfectly. This is why I hate Buffy. For reasons like this. You might or might not agree but it seems like just a extension of s6 buffy. She has not been the same since her death.

But remember the 1st comic of s8

Spoiler:

It sort of makes me forgive her. I can see Buffy involved and Xander but everybody else I bet did not know angel personally just what they had been told about him. And I think there was a very specific reason andrew was sent. Because they wanted to *** with him.

It can't be Xander ... he was in Romania with his big friend Dracula remember.

I think that this was the work of Giles and Buffy ... Willow would never do that to Angel and Xander wasn't there.

I don't think that you should comparing Buffy to Hitler ... ever. There are some little things in the comics that remind us to the Nazi's (slayer=?bermenschen, Buffy caring more about her slayers than about non-slayers) but the intentions are different. As long Buffy doesn't kill people because they look or are different or behaves like she is a psycho ... I think that we can compare her to a mild dictator ... maybe. But not to one of the biggest psycho's in history.

**Andrew** · 05-07-08, 09:35 AM

One thing that should be remembered is that we don't know how much of what Andrew said was true. He lied about Buffy being in Europe since we know there's a decoy so it's entirely possible he's taking orders from Giles or someone else. In fact, the attitude Andrew had towards the Fang Gang seems more in line with Giles than Buffy.

Spoiler:

Originally posted by Nina

Andrew is in LA.
First humiliation, team Buffy does send Andrew who is clearly not their best man. Between all the nonsense, Andrew humiliates Wesley by saying that Wesley (after a simple remark) is smarter than Giles said ... after that, Andrew is being unhelpfull and lame again.

Perhaps they didn't have the resources to send anyone else? Remember that Conviction picks up two weeks after Chosen/Home, so the Council may not even be up and running. Also, I seem to remember that the last time Giles saw Wesley up close was in Grad Day Pt II when he was still a massive ponce. He has no idea that Wesley's become a skilled warrior, especially since he had practically zero contact with him post-Sunnydale. You're faulting Buffy for Andrew's lack of tact and penchant for misinterpretation.

I can totally understand their suspicions about Angel joining W&H. Considering he only accepted the deal due to extenuating circumstances (ie Connor)that the Scoobies would have no idea about, their reaction can be understood. Angel turned up in EoD/Chosen without mentioning to Buffy anything about W&H and Angelus had already turned up once that year, so it's no far stretch for them to believe that Angelus was back or Angel had been corrupted considering how quickly he changed his position.

Angel and Wesley did catch Dana, Andrew wants her and Angel says no.
Team Angel had never the intention to keep Dana, but who in their right mind would give a crazy slayer to Andrew so he can roll her to europe? Right, nobody.

Perhaps the fact that the Slayers are under Buffy's jurisdiction/responsibility? If they believe that Angel is evil or corrupt what else can Andrew do beside taking Dana by force? From their POV, if they let W&H have her they may never get her back. She could be experimented on or brainwashed or any other horrible thing W&H is famous for.

There are Slayers now and Andrew is using them to force Angel to give Dana.
First, so there are slayers in town ... and where were those slayers when Dana was running around? Yup, they were nowhere ... team Buffy did send 12 slayers to force Angel to do what they want ... but never to catch Dana. How nice of them.

And than number two; force to get what they want. There is no talking (while Angel wanted to talk, just not with Andrew.) but team Buffy forces team Angel to do what they want and taking away the dignity from team Angel. And it wasn't necessary at all because team Angel always planned to give Dana back to the slayers, it was Buffy showing of her powers to Angel ... with the message; I'm better than you, and I don't have to respect anybody because I'm the strongest.

Andrew doesn't want to take the risk as I've mentioned above. This had nothing to do with Team Angel's dignity and everything to do with Dana's wellbeing. They couldn't be sure that Angel could be trusted. And I didn't get a 'I'm better than you so piss off' message at all.

Also, the fact that the dozen slayers weren't helping is more of a plothole than anything. Although I can fanwank that with the fact that LA is a busy city, and pretty much a Monster Central. If someone else is taking care of Dana (with Andrew keeping check on them) why waste scant resources? The entire lack of trust between the two groups was mainly a plot device to keep the two shows separate. This should be considered when interpreting the writers' intentions.

Look at what we hear of the Giles/Angel conversation:

ANGEL
(to phone) Himalayas? I thought she was in South America.

ANGEL
(to phone) All right, look—
(sighs)
What do you mean she's not on this plane? You just said— Astral projection? Well, is there any way to get her astral over to L.A.? Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going— Don't put me on hold.

ANGEL
(to phone) Yeah, I'm still at Wolfram & Hart . What does that have to do with anything? Yeah. I understand.
(throws phone against the wall; it shatters)
We're on our own.

To me, it seems likely that in his rush to get help for Fred, Angel didn't explain the situation to Giles fully or at all. To Giles, Angel, possibly evil, called up out of the blue to ask for the most powerful witch in the Western Hemisphere without any explanation. Now does that scream trap or what? He had no knowledge that the situation was important enough to pull Willow out of her trance/whatever.

**vampmogs** · 05-07-08, 10:18 AM

Okay jumping in here for Buffy's defence! Yes she's done some very morally questionable things this season and yes I could actually see it as in character for her not to go for the personal touch with Angel, given some of her other mistakes in the missing year and a half between season seven and eight, but she wasn't entirley wrong.

Angel learns later in season five that they are in fact working for the wrong side, it's what the Senior Partners wanted all along. It was a surprise to the viewer and to Angel's team and it was meant to be, because as they're stuck in Wolfram and Hart they aren't getting an outsider's perspective on the whole thing. And it is revealed the apocoylpse had indeed started and they were indeed playing on the wrong side, it's stated in their group meeting.

So from an outsider's perspective, Buffy's in this case, she could see Angel was indeed playing on the wrong side of the tracks. I think her only flaw was not going to Angel directly about it, but then that fits in line with some of Buffy's other mistakes this season.

I don't think this had anything to do with trying to 'humiliate' Angel or anything like that, I agree with Andrew, don't blame Buffy for Andrew's lack of tact in the situation.

***Nina*** · 05-07-08, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Andrew View Post

One thing that should be remembered is that we don't know how much of what Andrew said was true. He lied about Buffy being in Europe since we know there's a decoy so it's entirely possible he's taking orders from Giles or someone else. In fact, the attitude Andrew had towards the Fang Gang seems more in line with Giles than Buffy.

Spoiler:

That was my first thought after 'Damage', I was so sure that this couldn't be the work of Buffy. But after season 8 ... I'm not so sure anymore. The Buffy in season 8 is more than capable for doing this. And are they really going to take that route again? Andrew lied ... hahaha. Everytime they use Andrew, they do that because they can say that he lied. It's so cheap if they do that again.

And about Buffy being in Europe, she wasn't in Rome ... where is the decoy who is dating the person Angel hates the most in the world ... which is to provocate Angel (and Spike) on purpose. Right there, Andrew (and maybe Giles) did spend time and thought to provocate/annoy Angel.

Perhaps they didn't have the resources to send anyone else? Remember that Conviction picks up two weeks after Chosen/Home, so the Council may not even be up and running.

No, but if you are going to send Andrew, don't say that you are sending your best man. Say that you don't have much people but that you send somebody. The combination of the 'our best man' and sending Andrew, is for me enough to say that this is to screw with team Angel. Like Andrew is good enough for team Angel. And they already planned to double cross Angel before anything happened. Andrew is not only the person who can humiliate Angel the most, he is also the person who can double cross them because nobody takes him serious. I think that Andrew was picked because he is Andrew and not because he was the only one left.

Around Damage, there already happened a lot ... Andrew had 12 slayers in his team and there were decoys.

Also, I seem to remember that the last time Giles saw Wesley up close was in Grad Day Pt II when he was still a massive ponce. He has no idea that Wesley's become a skilled warrior, especially since he had practically zero contact with him post-Sunnydale. You're faulting Buffy for Andrew's lack of tact and penchant for misinterpretation.

Maybe, but Willow and Faith do know that Wesley changed, did not one of those two mention that once? Did Faith never tell how she escaped jail? Already in the Faith arc in season 1, Buffy could see that Wesley was changing into a decent warrior and good man. Do the scoobies never talk to eachother? And besides, Giles knew that Wesley wasn't just a dumb idiot. Already in season 3 you saw that Wesley had a lot of potential ... Giles saw that too. Maybe Andrew was extra harsh ... but the chance that Giles really thinks that Wesley is still the Wesley from Sunnydale, is not very big.

I can totally understand their suspicions about Angel joining W&H. Considering he only accepted the deal due to extenuating circumstances (ie Connor)that the Scoobies would have no idea about, their reaction can be understood. Angel turned up in EoD/Chosen without mentioning to Buffy anything about W&H and Angelus had already turned up once that year, so it's no far stretch for them to believe that Angelus was back or Angel had been corrupted considering how quickly he changed his position.

I have no problem with their suspicions, but they don't know anything. Giles (or Buffy for that matter) isn't been in LA for years, they have no idea who are in the team and to jump to conclusions and handle it like this is not fair. They decided toe double cross them before anything happened, if Buffy went to LA ... Angel would've gave her Dana and she could make up her mind about the situation of Angel and his team. Instead they decide that a group of people they don't know (anymore) isn't trustworthy and this all happens on another continent without any real knowledge. We all know that Angel is hard to corrupt, there is more needed than a couple of new cars and a nice office to get him into W&H ... and they should've know that something was wrong or Angel had a damn good reason for that.

Perhaps the fact that the Slayers are under Buffy's jurisdiction/responsibility? If they believe that Angel is evil or corrupt what else can Andrew do beside taking Dana by force? From their POV, if they let W&H have her they may never get her back. She could be experimented on or brainwashed or any other horrible thing W&H is famous for.

Angel never wanted to keep Dana, if he did ... he would never have called Giles. But we just saw how Dana attacked Spike, drugged him and cut his hands off. To give this crazy woman to Andrew (who showed that he is the biggest idiot in the world ... ) is crazy. Again, I get that Buffy/Giles wanted to have Dana away from W&H, but that wasn't the point here.

Andrew doesn't want to take the risk as I've mentioned above. This had nothing to do with Team Angel's dignity and everything to do with Dana's wellbeing. They couldn't be sure that Angel could be trusted. And I didn't get a 'I'm better than you so piss off' message at all.

If Angel was trying to kidnap Dana or didn't want to discuss it ... fine, use you slayer force. But that wasn't the case, Angel wanted to give Dana to team Buffy ... just not to Andrew ... because Andrew is Andrew. He wanted to talk about it ... yet he got 12 slayers in his face to force him to do what Andrew wants. 12 slayers who were nowhere when Dana was running around.

Sending Andrew to double cross Angel give me a gigantic 'I'm better than you' vibe. When team Angel helps team Buffy, it's always Angel who comes himself ... Buffy sends the biggest idiot she can find in her team to read Angel the lesson. How is that respectfull? If she went herself, the case would be different ... if Xander or Willow went ... it would be different. But Andrew went, the same Andrew who put a penny (he found at the street) in his mouth in that episode.

Also, the fact that the dozen slayers weren't helping is more of a plothole than anything. Although I can fanwank that with the fact that LA is a busy city, and pretty much a Monster Central. If someone else is taking care of Dana (with Andrew keeping check on them) why waste scant resources? The entire lack of trust between the two groups was mainly a plot device to keep the two shows separate. This should be considered when interpreting the writers' intentions.

I'm not sure if it's a plothole ... I can see it as part of the plan. Let Angel do the work and after that double cross him.

Look at what we hear of the Giles/Angel conversation:

To me, it seems likely that in his rush to get help for Fred, Angel didn't explain the situation to Giles fully or at all. To Giles, Angel, possibly evil, called up out of the blue to ask for the most powerful witch in the Western Hemisphere without any explanation. Now does that scream trap or what? He had no knowledge that the situation was important enough to pull Willow out of her trance/whatever.

Maybe, but maybe the scoobies should check the situation out before making big decisions like this. They don't know what is happeing, they don't give Angel a reason to prove himself or to explain ... they just do what they do. Fred's soul is detroyed, and maybe Willow could've saved her ... they closed the door without looking why.

They could do it like Cordelia did, Cordelia made very clear that she wasn't happy with the W&H situation and didn't agree with it. But she looked what was happening, found out why they were there ... gave Angel a bad look for what he did and after that she helped him to find back his faith in himself. What was 100000x more helpfull than what the scoobies did. And after what Angel did for them ... they kind of owed him a helping hand, or at least more than what they did.

edit:

Originally posted by Vampmogs

Okay jumping in here for Buffy's defence! Yes she's done some very morally questionable things this season and yes I could actually see it as in character for her not to go for the personal touch with Angel, given some of her other mistakes in the missing year and a half between season seven and eight, but she wasn't entirley wrong.

She wasn't wrong about not trusting W&H, but her sending Andrew to do what Andrew did ... was wrong IMO. Not only because Angel always helps Buffy in person, but like I said somewhere in my post ... because sending Andrew gives a message ... and not a good one. If it was Xander or Willow, it would be different. But the scoobies don't take Andrew serious ... not really and with sending him to Angel, it was a way of saying that she had no interest in helping or understanding Angel.

Angel learns later in season five that they are in fact working for the wrong side, it's what the Senior Partners wanted all along. It was a surprise to the viewer and to Angel's team and it was meant to be, because as they're stuck in Wolfram and Hart they aren't getting an outsider's perspective on the whole thing. And it is revealed the apocoylpse had indeed started and they were indeed playing on the wrong side, it's stated in their group meeting.

Again, I was never against the scoobies not trusting W&H ... or Angel for that matter. But how they did treat him and that all, without any real knowledge about the situation. All the scoobies were far away from LA, not one of them knew what the deal was and they all know Angel and they could've at least checked the situation before sending Andrew to double cross Angel.

So from an outsider's perspective, Buffy's in this case, she could see Angel was indeed playing on the wrong side of the tracks. I think her only flaw was not going to Angel directly about it, but then that fits in line with some of Buffy's other mistakes this season.

But why sending Andrew, why not Giles or Willow ... if she didn't want to go herself. Why sending the biggest idiot in her team, is that just a mistake?

**vampmogs** · 05-07-08, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Nina View Post

But after season 8 ... I'm not so sure anymore. The Buffy in season 8 is more than capable for doing this. And are they really going to take that route again? Andrew lied ... hahaha. Everytime theu use Andrew, they do that because they can say that he lied. It's so cheap if they do that again.

I agree with what you've said here, except about the cheap part... well to an extent. Before season 8 I found it really hard for anyone to honestly say Buffy would do this. But we've seen she's evolved and made some pretty big mistakes along the way and thus I now see it as possible. But if it were Andrew I could actually like that idea, because immediately it becomes all the more sinister and intriguing. Andrew also lied about decoy Buffy, and we know Buffy knows very, very little about the Rome decoy so it's entirely possible she knew zip about Andrew and his interaction with Angel and Spike. And I don't see Andrew being able to concoct this whole thing by himself, which immediately sets up some interesting conflicts if he is working with someone else.. Giles for example.

This goes beyond Andrew just embellishing something or misconstruing something like I think he did with Dracula and Xander in 'Wolves At The Gate' this becomes very deliberate and planned and has more extreme implications as a result of that.

And about Buffy being in Europe, she wasn't in Rome ... where is the decoy who is dating the person Angel hates the most in the world ... which is to provocate Angel (and Spike) on purpose. Right there, Andrew (and maybe Giles) did spend time and thought to provocate/annoy Angel.

I agree, bad Andrew for that one. He's messing with the other team and that's not cool.

She wasn't wrong about not trusting W&H, but her sending Andrew to do what Andrew did ... was wrong IMO. Not only because Angel always helps Buffy in person, but like I said somewhere in my post ... because sending Andrew gives a message ... and not a good one. If it was Xander or Willow, it would be different. But the scoobies don't take Andrew serious ... not really and with sending him to Angel, it was a way of saying that she had no interest in helping or understanding Angel.

I agree with that. Honestly I think it fits with Buffy this season. She's very interested in the slayers and people very close to her like Xander and Willow but she becomes hard and cold, even calculated, when it comes to others. She reacts to both Giles and Faith incredibly harshly in comparison to how I think she'd treat Xander or Willow in that situation, and she doesn't care about the people she stole from to any great extent. There's also that line "other *slayers*!" which speaks volumes to me. She only becomes so angry when she learns Gigi killed slayers, not regular people. Since Angel isn't in her proximity and since he's dealing with a slayer, she turns into the cold leader and not personal Buffy we've seen is still there very much so in fact.

Again, I was never against the scoobies not trusting W&H ... or Angel for that matter. But how they did treat him.

Buffy should have went herself instead of Andrew, I agree with that.

But why sending Andrew, why not Giles or Willow ... if she didn't want to go herself. Why sending the biggest idiot in her team, is that just a mistake?

I agree. But then they did give him his own slayer cell as well, so they obviously view him in higher regard than we do apparently. I don't think Buffy gave that one a great deal of thought.

I still feel a little uneasy discussing this to great extent though. Mainly because whilst there certainly is more evidence now to suggest Buffy is capable of this, it hasn't been resolved yet and there is still plenty of strong arguments to indicate this may have been done without her knowledge, especially given her comments in ?The Long Way Home.'

And I dunno, just the vibe I get from her in general, she really doesn't or hasn't shown any conflict with Angel. We saw her dream panels of "Buffy & Angel 4eva" the threesome with Buffy/Angel/Spike and crying over him leaving in 'A Beautiful Sunset.' Obviously she still thinks of him fondly?

**KingofCretins** · 05-07-08, 10:56 AM

Angel is the one that was with Wolfram & Hart. He's the one that lost the mission. Buffy didn't betray him -- if anything, he betrayed her.

I thought that was a simply *awesome* scene that was very important in driving home for Angel just how big, and obvious, a mistake it was to go to Wolfram & Hart. He found out that that there are lines even he can't cross without losing trust with the people he cares about.

I actually wrote a fic to try to explain this to people, posted on BuffyForums, called "Protective Orders" -- I don't think Buffy *could* have gone herself, because part of this was getting a read on Angel's situation, and she could not be objective. Nor could Xander, or Willow, undoubtedly, since they also both had preconceived notions of Angel. Andrew didn't.

**Revan** · 05-07-08, 11:00 AM

In my mind there was a particular point in sending Andrew. He was going to act like he did. It's in his nature especially with the Nerd thing going on and the scoobies are not stupid enough to not realise this.

They should have sent someone Angel knew. Someone who could actually communicate and deal. And not just the messenger boy which to me he clearly was. He even enjoyed lording it over angel's group which really pissed me of. I was like Don't you know what these people have gone through little man. My sending someone who could not deal was a clear indication that the scoobies whoever was behind it had no intention to deal. Only to take. Despite the fact that Angel definately deserves more. In fact that is another point that they are making. Andrew has no idea what Angel has done whilst all the others have. They were always aware that Andrew would act as he did and they still sent him. Therefore they did it on purpose. I pretty much agree with Nina's arguements for the other points for the record

**vampmogs** · 05-07-08, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

Angel is the one that was with Wolfram & Hart. He's the one that lost the mission. Buffy didn't betray him -- if anything, he betrayed her.

That's a little hard to stomach given some of Buffy's less than great actions of late isn't it? How can she be giving him a moral lecture when she's betrayed some of her own?

**KingofCretins** · 05-07-08, 11:09 AM

A) nothing she's done even *approaches* the audacity of joining up with Corporate Evil, and B) doesn't change what was true at the time.

"Damage" is not an argument I want to have for another 200 posts -- what happened is what happened and the narrative intent was more or less obvious. But I couldn't go with it being interpreted as Buffy having done wrong by Angel -- he didn't take over his local Elks Lodge, he took over Wolfram & Hart.

**vampmogs** · 05-07-08, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

A) nothing she's done even *approaches* the audacity of joining up with Corporate Evil, and B) doesn't change what was true at the time.

Angel didn't join Wolfram and Hart because he abandoned his morals, he took over Wolfram and Hart because it was the only option he saw to save his son. I don't see any 'audacity' in that whatsoever. Nor did he 'join' Wolfram and Hart as in, agreeing to their terms and their way of doing things. He didn't 'join' them he *took over them* and the first thing he did was refuse to play by their rules in 'Conviction' when he handles the situation and not the 'cleaners' and set up his own rules and codes of ethics which all employees must abide by as evident in 'Harms Way.' *Zero tolerance policy.* And yeah I blame Buffy for not knowing all this, because she never bothered to find out.

And whilst her own bad deeds may not change any truth Andrew was saying about Angel not being on their side anymore, it does paint the bunch of them as being fairly hypercritical and thus, worthy of fans irritation as seen in this thread.

I don’t know about you but I find it hard to stomach hearing Andrew of all people give a moral lecture to Angel when he’s part of an organisation who’s done their fair share of shady things, especially when said organisations leader was to ignorant to go suss out the situation for herself.
Angel would have gave her that courtesy.

what happened is what happened and the narrative intent was more or less obvious.

Narrative intent changes over time. And whilst I agree that the intent was to show Angel had made a mistake, which I believe he did, season 8 has opened up a whole can of worms. New layers are added onto old situations, new information is revealed and I for one suddenly don't view those opposite to Angel in the standoff as the beacons of morality as I once did. If anything I think it makes the whole situation a lot more interesting. A case of "look who's talking" It's a double edged sword.

**Koos** · 05-07-08, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Nina View Post

It can't be Xander ... he was in Romania with his big friend Dracula remember.

Still don't think this is a fact. :rolls eyes:

Originally posted by Nina View Post

I think that this was the work of Giles and Buffy ... Willow would never do that to Angel and Xander wasn't there.

Well, frankly, I was hoping Xander was behind it. But than he would have come by himself, so that's a big no immediately. (Which would make the episode so much more funny.I can see scenes with him and Angel, Spike and Harmony already). No, I only think Giles is behind it and he gave orders to Andrew. No one else is involved.

Now to the actual ep.

I agree with some of the arguments and I agree that the whole episode doesn't make sense simply by the fact that Andrew was sent. That was the biggest nonsense ever. An important mission like that should never have been brought on Andrew's shoulders. He's too unreliable for it.

But:
A: Remember that what Andrew says should never be taken seriously.
B: Angel joining W&H in order to fight the good fight within was a bad move, IMO. No matter how you see it and no matter what good he could do, it can never be justified. Which means that distrusting Angel is also justified. Angel has been extremely lucky that the damage was resticted to only the death of Fred.

Originally posted by Nina View Post

Meanwhile in the Netherlands.

Always nice to see a fellow countryfan, Nina.

**Boltmaiden** · 06-07-08, 06:56 AM

B: Angel joining W&H in order to fight the good fight within was a bad move, IMO. No matter how you see it and no matter what good he could do, it can never be justified. Which means that distrusting Angel is also justified. Angel has been extremely lucky that the damage was resticted to only the death of Fred

I don't agree with this. I posted in another thread that Angel was and is at war with Wolfram and Hart and I see this particular move by Angel as one of the major battles. But while his decision was extremely risky, he had the chance to save his son and not be completely defeated at the same time. Therefore I think he was completely justified. Yes he lost his way for a while and their were consequences for his actions, but it has always been that way even when he wasn't "in" with Wolfram and Hart. And he still lost a lot more than just Fred, whether or not Buffy really was in on what happened...Angel was made to think so and that had to be a blow and his executive decision put all of his team in danger, he risked loosing all of them when they found out of the mind wipe. Also isn't there still being repercussions felt in After the Fall?

And while the thought of distrusting Angel is totally understandable, you find out exactly what you are dealing with. If they really thought Angel was that bad, why not take him out after retrieving Dana? If he was evil than he had to many resources and also was already known as one of the nastiest big bads to ever grace the scoobies, yet they put up this bad ass front with the insults but don't finish the deed? No the whole thing was just done wrong, whoever was behind it and it should have or be addressed.

**vampmogs** · 06-07-08, 12:55 PM

I think what irritates me about the whole thing is, yes from an outsider's perspective the Scoobies had a legitimate concern about Angel taking over a company with the reputation Wolfram and Hart had. They most certainly did. But instead of trying to figure out why he had done this, if he was good or bad ect, they make up their minds and that is that. And I do feel that is wrong, particularly when you have this attitude towards an individual who's not only helped you out on a number of occasions, not only was involved intimately with one of you, but was one of the main reasons you're all still alive, seeing that Angel brought the amulet to Sunnydale in the first place.

Why on earth they wouldn't even bother to find out how this was all playing out is beyond me. Especially considering that it's kinda ironic they're more than willing to use the amulet sent by Wolfram and Hart to fix their problems but don't want to give Angel the benefit of the doubt? We know Buffy didn't know it came directly from Wolfram and Hart at the time, but she did know it came from "not a remotely reliable source" and she said it ain't important in an apocalypse. Too bad she couldn't have tried to give Angel the courtesy of some leniency and perhaps try and figure out, why the guy who'd just saved her life from Caleb and handed her a weapon that won them their war, suddenly was heading up evil inc.

I add this to the line of other very questionable things Buffy had done between 'Chosen' and 'The Long Way Home' even if technically she was right, Angel was on the wrong side of the tracks, because it was wrong of her to handle it in the way she did, and a real slap in the face to someone who cared about her and had helped her out on more than one occasion.

***Nina*** · 06-07-08, 01:58 PM

I agree, I think that the only difference between us is that I'm more pissed off by the situation.

I get the message of the writers, I really do. It was just another 'Angel is in a bad place' message. But we already had enough of those messages, Angel knew when he signed the contract that he was in the wrong place. But you can say it a hundred times but if we go back to "Home"; would anybody do something different?

ANGEL
Son...you have to listen to me. This is about Jasmine.

CONNOR
Jasmine's gone.

ANGEL
I know. We all felt it, that perfect love, then when you had to give it up—

CONNOR
(in a violent outburst, pushes items off a nearby table) I didn't feel anything! I can't feel anything. (scoffs) I guess I really am your son... 'cause I'm dead, too.

ANGEL
(starts walking toward Connor) You're not dead. You're just starting your life and—

CONNOR
No, you just weren't there before!

ANGEL
(tears well up in his eyes) I know. I'm so—

CONNOR
(yelling angrily) Do not say you're sorry! Doesn't fix anything.

ANGEL
Ok, look, let me say this. I love you, son.

CONNOR
It's a lie.

ANGEL
It's not.

CONNOR
(hangs his head) It's always a lie. (softly) My dead mother couldn't even love me.

ANGEL
You're wrong. She did.

CONNOR
No. (shakes her head) No. She knew she couldn't.

ANGEL
She sacrificed herself because she loved you.

CONNOR
You tried to love me. At least I think you did.

ANGEL
I still do.

CONNOR
But not enough to hang on, dad. (glares at Angel) You let him take me. You let him get me. You let him get me. (turns to face Cordelia) Cordy... you swore you loved me. Where are you now?

ANGEL
(inches toward Connor; softly) Connor... you have to believe that there are people who love you.

CONNOR
Jasmine believed you when you said you loved her, but it was all a lie.

ANGEL
Jasmine was the lie.

CONNOR
(yelling) No! She knew if you found out who she really was that you'd turn against her, and she was right. That's just what happened. People like you. People like this. None of you deserve what she could give you. (sighs) She wanted to give you everything.

ANGEL
I know how that feels. 'Cause I want to give you everything. I want to take back the mistakes, help you start over.

CONNOR
We can't start over.

ANGEL
We can. I mean, we can change things.

CONNOR
There's only one thing that ever changes anything... and that's death. (Angel starts to cry) Everything else is just a lie. (cries) You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all.

ANGEL
(hovering over Connor, holding the knife) I really do love you, Connor.

CONNOR
(low) So what are you gonna do about it?

ANGEL
Prove it.

Angel sweeps down his knife hand and swipes the blade across Connor's throat.

It's so awful, not ever should there be two (good) people be in this situation. Angel had to make a choice that not one parent should ever make, but it was never really said out loud. Only Connor said in in Origin. The show is all about Angel being in a bad place and Angel mindwiping the others. And the others don't know about Connor or the choice Angel had to make, but the viewers did ... and to use other characters to give Angel a moral lecture is not working in this case. It turns people against the scoobies (in this case) because they know what Angel did. That's why Cordelia worked, she knew about Connor ... she got where Angel was coming from and she helped Angel. There was no need to use the scoobies in hypocritical and cold people, if Angel was really wrong and did it for the cars and the power ... that would've worked as a wake up call. But that isn't the case, and the scoobies are the ones that are looking like the unlikable ones ... and it was not needed at all. Which pisses me off as well.

And yes, Angel was in a bad place ... I don't deny that. But making other characters (our favourite rapist/murderer Andrew) tell Angel that he is evil was for me too much. Because that scene in "Home" is too awful, and I know that Angel's decision was grey ... but how much parents would do something different? It just didn't work for me.

**KingofCretins** · 06-07-08, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

I think what irritates me about the whole thing is, yes from an outsider's perspective the Scoobies had a legitimate concern about Angel taking over a company with the reputation Wolfram and Hart had. They most certainly did. But instead of trying to figure out why he had done this, if he was good or bad ect, they make up their minds and that is that. And I do feel that is wrong, particularly when you have this attitude towards an individual who's not only helped you out on a number of occasions, not only was involved intimately with one of you, but was one of the main reasons you're all still alive, seeing that Angel brought the amulet to Sunnydale in the first place.

Why on earth they wouldn't even bother to find out how this was all playing out is beyond me. Especially considering that it's kinda ironic they're more than willing to use the amulet sent by Wolfram and Hart to fix their problems but don't want to give Angel the benefit of the doubt? We know Buffy didn't know it came directly from Wolfram and Hart at the time, but she did know it came from "not a remotely reliable source" and she said it ain't important in an apocalypse. Too bad she couldn't have tried to give Angel the courtesy of some leniency and perhaps try and figure out, why the guy who'd just saved her life from Caleb and handed her a weapon that won them their war, suddenly was heading up evil inc.

I add this to the line of other very questionable things Buffy had done between 'Chosen' and 'The Long Way Home' even if technically she was right, Angel was on the wrong side of the tracks, because it was wrong of her to handle it in the way she did, and a real slap in the face to someone who cared about her and had helped her out on more than one occasion.

I think we're losing focus on the most important point -- there is no reason at all to think that if Buffy had sent the whole Scooby team to inspect every corner of Angel's operation a la the Council in "Checkpoint", that they wouldn't have come to the exact same conclusion.

Angel may have been given enough meaningless victories to win in his W&H HabiTrail to kid himself... but he wasn't kidding anybody else. It was spelled out in as many words that Angel and crew were, in fact, on the side of the bad guys whether they realized it or not when Lindsey explained it to them. So, Buffy was right to distrust him for as long as he was in that situation. If not because he was malicious, but for the same reason you distrust a toddler with a nail gun, because they obviously don't understand the reality of the situation.

And there's plenty of evidence that Buffy and the others at least got a lay of the land, to some degree -- they were still in contact at some point in the 19 days between "Chosen" and "Conviction", because Angel knew their plans included Europe. Personally, I can't really imagine this communication wasn't in person -- where else were the Sunnydale survivors *really* going to go first, if not LA?

I tend to think that they got down there and had a big Cordy-in-"You're Welcome" elevator moment, got all nice and fake cordial, smiles, waved, and ran the frickin' hell away as smart people do when powerful champions have clearly been corrupted by even more powerful evil corporations. Doesn't matter if he helped her against Caleb -- should she have trusted Spike after he helped in "Becoming"? She clearly learned that something had turned foul with him, that he had walked through a seriously wrong door, and that he couldn't be counted on until that was fixed.

For me, the big philosophical theme of Season 5 of "Angel", that's continuing in "After the Fall" is "how do you un-sell-out, after you realize that you sold out?" Losing Buffy's trust was an essential, required element.

**Boltmaiden** · 06-07-08, 11:25 PM

Okay so I hear what everyone is saying but I still didn't get an answer to my question, if the scoobies thought Angel was evil why didn't they take him out? He had a really powerful helper that was into everything and if he was completely corrupted or at least they thought so, why doesn't Andrew have the slayers take him out? Why wasn't that order given?

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