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Jasmine/Cordelia and Connor

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  • Jasmine/Cordelia and Connor

    So I'm not sure if I remember it totally but was Jasmine controlling Cordy when she slept with Connor?

    If so, why was Jasmine-controlled Cordelia trying to distance herself from him at first, telling him it was just a one-time thing and there was nothing more, and then go on to start sucking up to him being "special" later on?

  • #2
    Yes, that was Jasmine. Her first step to create her own body. (Everything Cordelia did after Spin the Bottle, was Jasmine.)

    I think that she never wanted a relation with Connor, she needed space to do her 'job' and maybe she had to flirt with others (Angel/the Beast). After that she was coming back to Connor because she is was pregnant and she needed Connor to protect her no matter what.

    I'm not sure, but this is how I understood it.


    • #3
      jasmine could not kill either connor or cordelia without hurting herself. at the same time, cordy and connor were the ones that could hurt jasmine. jasmine needed them either incapacitated (cordy) or protecting her (connor). as soon as she lost connor, she was dead.

      when jasmine was in cordy, she was vulnerable to angel, in particular. if angel got the guts to behead cordy in time, jasmine would have never been birthed. that's why jasmine put so much time and energy to make everybody focus on angel/angelus, the rain of fire, etc... rather than cordy's expanding stomach. and it was angelus who caught evil-cordy's flubbed line ("my sweet boy"). jasmine was vulnerable to everything that could happen to cordy's body until she was birthed--and then she was only vulnerable to connor.

      jasmine came to earth in cordy's body in a confused, latent state until the spin the bottle spell woke up jasmine. connor, who was an impossible birth won in the trial, was needed, as was a vessel with demon strength (cordy becoming demonized was a trick by skip and jasmine), to create jasmine's new body.

      skip explains it well:

      Angel: Ah, it doesn't make sense. Cordy was made a higher being because she proved herself to the Powers by bearing their visions. This thing couldn't have—
      Wesley: Unless it maneuvered her to inherit the visions in the first place.
      Skip: Uh, oh. Better step on it. The rubes are catching up.
      Angel: It wasn't just her ascension. Everything that's happened to Cordy in the past few years—all of it—was planned.
      Skip: You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.
      Gunn: No way. We make our own choices.
      Skip: Yeah, sure. Cheese sandwich here, uh, when to floss. But the big stuff, like two vampires squeezing out a kid?
      Angel: Connor.
      Wesley: An impossible birth to make one possible.
      Skip: That's what the kid was designed for.
      Lorne: (chuckles) To sleep with mother love?
      Angel: To create a vessel.
      Skip: Look out. The monkey's thinking again.
      Angel: Being inside a human makes it vulnerable, doesn't it? That's why it had to stay hidden. Why it needed to create something stronger to pour itself into.
      Gunn: Wait. So the big nasty inside of Cordy is going to give birth... to itself?
      Skip: Circle of life. It's a beautiful thing.
      Angel: How do we stop it?
      Skip: That's the easy part, slick. All you gotta do is find Cordelia and chop her head off.
      Angel: Has to be another way.
      Skip: Sure. Stab her in the heart, kidney, couple pokes in the lung—
      Angel: A way that won't kill Cordy in the process.
      Skip: Takes a whole lot of cramming to get that much sweetness into a human. It's in every hair, every cell, every molecule of Cordelia's body and it ain't letting go 'til it got a brand new bag.
      Fred: What happens to Cordy then?
      Skip: Drained of her life force during labor. Those contractions are a real bitch.
      Angel: It'll kill her?
      Skip: Or she'll end up a head of cabbage.
      what is often missed by the great fans of the 'cordy should have come back and killed jasmine' idea is that cordy had the head of a cabbage in her human body by the time of her 21st birthday on may 22, 2002 (her brain scans were completely covered in dead green areas a month before birthday--she was one vision away from getting the back of her head blown out). she was already supposed to be mortally dead *then* because of the visions. it wasn't entirely just jasmine who killed cordy. cordy, without jasmine, was already a cabbage-brain. there wasn't much left of cordy when jasmine was birthed.

      the final act came up a question mark... but all the stuff leading up to that was pre-planned. and it probably goes back to the magic snow in amends.
      Last edited by NileQT87; 04-07-08, 08:41 AM.

      "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
      "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."


      • #4
        Yeah that whole "only vulnerable to Cordy and Connor" thing was never said. it was said they bound her to this world but not that no one could kill her except them. Or did I miss that line? Because she got hurt all the time while she was on the show.

        Also, I knew the rest of what you said. It doesn't answer why she'd basically tell Connor "you are nothing" to start off with then go "I need you" in a few episodes. Unless she just used him as a fallback when Angelus was no longer a factor.


        • #5
          Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
          what is often missed by the great fans of the 'cordy should have come back and killed jasmine' idea is that cordy had the head of a cabbage in her human body by the time of her 21st birthday on may 22, 2002 (her brain scans were completely covered in dead green areas a month before birthday--she was one vision away from getting the back of her head blown out). she was already supposed to be mortally dead *then* because of the visions. it wasn't entirely just jasmine who killed cordy. cordy, without jasmine, was already a cabbage-brain. there wasn't much left of cordy when jasmine was birthed.
          I'm assuming you're referring to my recent post in the Season 4 thread, excuse me if not. I can see the hole in my logic now, but I always thought that Cordy's coma was solely due to her Jasmination/Jasmine's birth and had no relation to her demonosity. The vision damage is nullified or at least stopped by her demon half isn't it? So the only (considerable) obstacle to her awakening would've been recovering from Jasmine's birth. I know from your posts that you're a Buffyverse mythology buff so am I missing something here?

          Do you at least agree with my opinion that Cordy's ending in S4 was mishandled?

          AKA nonbeliever93
          Avatar by me.


          • #6
            IMO and I just re watched the season. Cordy was in control of her body even after spin the bottle. It's just that Jasmine basically found a way to get cordy on her side. I'm just thinking this now because looking back Jasmine would not have been able to play Cordy for so long without people figuring things out. She was to good at playing cordy at times. And it explains some of the reactions of cordy that are otherwise unexplainable if it was just jasmine walking around. Also I think Jasmine only really started taking over when cordy got pregnant.

            I am in no way saying cordy had a choice at all. But basically cordy was in more control than Jasmine at the start. Though of course Jasmine was monitoring her.
            "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen


            • #7
              Okay so I am confused, it was confirmed that it was Jasmine that brought Angel back? And therefore manipulated every move?

              I thought Jasmine came in later, saw the situation with Darla so to speak and figured out that this was the vampire that could help her be err...born. Kinda like Wolfram and Hart they took interest to Angel after he was brought back and after seeing what he could accomplish. Some has speculated it was TPTB that brought him back and that the First was the err...first to try to manipulate him to do evil or at least not his will. All of the above seem to want him to be a pawn in there game plan and sometimes Angel obliges, sometimes he sets the rules himself.

              Then again my timeline of Ats is hazy, was Darla in the mix before Cordy was "tricked" into becoming a demon or higher being entity? And what about Doyle, he chose to give Cordy his visions, his death was part of Jasmine's plan to?

              It just seems to perfect, I just always thought that she to advantage of events that were already happening or happened.


              • #8
                The problem is that we don't know if Skip told the truth. He worships Jasmine, maybe he gave her more credit than she deserved.

                About Angel's return in BtVS season 3, there was (as far aas I know) never a real answer ... but I think that it were the PTB who saved him and showed Angel that he came back for good reasons (the white snow in Amends). I also prefer to think that everything went like it did because of the choices of the characters. What if Cordy said no to the deal and wanted her Hollywood life instead or what if she didn't accept a ticket to heaven? Or what if Wesley didn't walk into Jasmine after he kidnapped Connor, if he took another moment ot way ... or what if he didn't took Connor at all? What if Angel didn't won the life in 'The Trial'? Jasmine can influence what is happing, but she can't force them to make a choice.

                Angels said this in Power Play;
                We are weak. The powerful control everything... except our will to choose.
                There is no way that Jasmine could plan this all, because there were too much big choices made by the team before her plan could work. I don't know what she did plan, but not everything.


                • #9
                  yes, but jasmine can push the characters into the major decisions by sending them places--which she often did.

                  in that same episode, gunn states that the end is what comes up a question mark. these characters are often maneuvered against their will at the set-up, but the end is the question mark. what isn't a question mark is the set-up before it. that's never questioned. the characters are actually the ones who start to connect all of the dots (angel and wesley, in particular) when skip points them in the right direction of jasmine's actions. the characters don't disbelieve skip about the set-up, but do know that the end is a question mark and out of jasmine's control. jasmine gave up her full control over them when she came down to earth.

                  and the scroll of aberjian that provided w&h with the means to raise darla, cure cordy and the shanshu prophecy? probably the same source as with the connor/holtz/sahjhan's death tro-clon stuff in the nyazian scroll... jasmine's coming was entwined with all those events. connor was made because of jasmine. the british butler guy in the trial was probably an acolyte of jasmine. it is very possible that the supposed misunderstanding was no misunderstanding at all, but intended to not save darla. lorne's sending of angel to the trial was another step towards making connor.

                  remember that lorne sent angel to the trial and brought the spin the bottle potion. both times probably through information jasmine gave him through acolytes giving him those things. lorne was a major part of jasmine's maneuvering of the gang. fred opening the wrong book sent her to pylea, and from there she was opening portals like crazy and sent lorne to L.A. that was her purpose. lorne was pivotal in jasmine's plan. cordy was chosen because she could be manipulated into doing things because of her self-importance and thinking she was helping angel. doyle probably was meant to give the visions to cordy and jasmine waited until cordy was basically a cabbage-brain to demonize her using the cabbage-brain factor and the false visions to force cordy's decision and then it was a quick move into her body. after that it was time to manipulate connor's young feelings. jasmine started working connor's feelings for cordy back at the end of season 3 with the soul colonic. jasmine saved the hotel from the sluks (with the white glowing) to protect her vessel. if you pay attention, the white glow is always something to protect cordy or maneuver connor.

                  evil beings don't always lie and often tell the truth. angelus included. he often used the truth to twist things in a hurtful way that almost became a lie. anya often told the truth when she was evil. jasmine and skip had no reason to lie at that point. and because there is no other alternate reason stated in the text, it was the text you are supposed to take as truth by the writers of the episode.

                  we also know that until you're welcome, jasmine was probably the one that sent all of the visions. we even are told about how the other powers don't like to directly interfere, meddle or really care--except for jasmine, who was putting all of her ducks in a row. and judging by after the fall, the powers still don't like cordy doing much (she can only flutter leaves probably still from floaty land--not much beyond what she was doing before when she moved a slot machine). the only time we've seen the powers step in for anything that can't be attributed to jasmine's lining of her ducks, is the circle of the black thorn one-shot vision.

                  cordy never actually woke up and angel is the only one that remembers cordy's visit. cordy died because on top of her life force being drained during the birth, the human part of cordy was already a cabbage. she should have been in a coma before she got demonized.

                  as for amends--the text says the first evil brought back angel to lose his soul and kill buffy (it needed buffy dead again--and didn't get its wish until the gift). the text also says that the minions of the first DID have the power to resurrect. what can't be attributed to the first is the snow--who would have nothing to gain by that. but jasmine would! no angel, no connor.

                  what i'd like to know is where whistler fits in all this. if he's an acolyte of jasmine or just another pawn like doyle to maneuver angel into place.
                  Last edited by NileQT87; 04-07-08, 11:19 PM.

                  "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                  "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."


                  • #10
                    First - thanks Nile for making it a little clearer than it was before! I too have ust rewatched S4 and was confused as usual at the end. I was trying to find that conversation last night between Skip and the Gang and couldn't.

                    However, I think I can see shades of Jasmine now going back before S4. Cordy changed quite a bit - now some of it I will attribute to growth and maturity. But there were too many "Cordy's grown into a quite a woman" statements throughout

                    And I noticed it more watching it this time around, that Cordy does become a very different almost "Jasmine-like" person earlier than S4. There are moments with Angel she just seems "too nice", "too sweet", too "there" with the good advice.
                    "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                    - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                    Spuffy Videos!


                    • #11
                      The problem I've with the retcon, is that it's created and worked out in season 4. There was never a plan to bring Jasmine into the mix, Cordelia would be the big bad after she came back from heaven ... with a 'Angel vs. Cordelia' battle in the end. All Jasmine did, wasn't planned. And I don't like it that the choices the characters made (because of their flaws/virtues) are all retconned to 'Jasmine planned it all'. Because in the season 1-3, there was no Jasmine. And Wesley kidnapped Connor because of Sahjan and his own pride, not because Jasmine planned it. Angel won a life because he wanted to save Darla, not because Jasmine planned it and Cordelia choose to give up her humanity because she wanted that and not because Jasmine pushed her. In season 4, the writers created the biggest retcon in the history of the 'verse and violated the choices of the characters by saying that Jasmine planned it all, and that it all worked.

                      I know that the retcon is canon and and that it actually works. But it bothers me because Jasmine gets credits for things the characters did, and isn't Ats about the choice of the humans, the free will as their only weapon against the big powers? Now the first seasons (and BtVS season 1-3) are all about Jasmine and the choices she made. Was it Jasmine that made the choice in IWRY, was it Jasmine who helped Fred with opening the portals to Pylea? Was it Jasmine who made Doyle save the halfdemons in 'Hero'?
                      In the first seasons, the choices and talents were those of Angel, Fred and Doyle ... now they became Jasmine's choices. And we can go back earlier; was it Jasmine who pointed Darla in the right direction in 1753? Was it Jasmine who gave the gypsies their spell?

                      But I will stop rambling now and go to bed, because I'm really tired. Tomorrow I have probably a fresher view.
                      Last edited by Nina; 04-07-08, 11:44 PM. Reason: Because Wesley did never kidnap Jasmine.


                      • #12
                        You know what Nina, I am completely with you. I am not okay with everything being Jasmine's plan, as you said it takes away part of the theme of Ats to begin with. I refuse to believe that everything was always going to happen because Jasmine planned it. For me I would put it more toward what the First did in Amends, it had a specific purpose that it wanted Angel to accomplish, when he refused it was happy with Angel's decision to kill himself (plan B) knowing that Angel would be more harm than good if he wasn't the minion it wanted him to be.

                        I see Jasmine as uber powerful, a manipulator, but also someone who thinks fast on her feet, because no way is only Jasmine interested in Angel. Wolfram and Hart, The Powers that Be, Angel's own need for redemption...they are all just smoke screens? I will never accept that.

                        Jasmine found a way to use what was happening to her advantage and definately helped influence some of the characters decisions but if she was that good at getting everyone to do her bidding, she would have seen the blood thing coming or at least immediately realized when Angel was no longer working her will and he and Fred would have been eliminated.

                        You either make her that powerful and end the show dark showing that they were never in control of their destiny or you show that there are so many forces trying to get a piece and sometimes you end up used but you keep plugging along anyway. Because it is you choosing to fight that matters.

                        Having Jasmine be the be all end all and then all the sudden Angel and Fred are lucky enough to find out what has been happening and be the heroes finally, for the first time ever is imho LAME. And if that is what Joss and the writers were going for then I sorely misjudged them and I would have to reevalute the whole love for the verse' thing.

                        On a side note, Nile you did such a great job of showing how Jasmine could have been into everything I just really hope that is not the case and like I said just cannot accept that right now.


                        • #13
                          You know - that's very true. Which is probably why I don't like Season 4. It isn't fair to sum up all the seasons - all the choices - as Jasmine planned it all.

                          I don't know all the "background" actors vs. creators problems they were having. I tried to find some information about that the other night. Seems Charisma was having difficulties is all I could find. But wasn't S4 written this way because there were problems with Charisma?

                          I was just happy when we moved on to S5 and my favorite vampire... *sigh*
                          "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                          - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                          Spuffy Videos!


                          • #14
                            They wanted to make Cordelie the big bad, with some fighting stunts. When Charisma told them that she was pregnant, they had to change everything. Charisma couldn't do the fighting stunts and they had to make Cordelia pregntant.

                            I don't know if it's true, but this is the reason that Cordelia is written out of the series, and it didn't happen with a lot of respect for Charisma. When she returned in season 5, she said that she only wanted to return if Cordelia didn't die because Charisma loves Cordelia too much. And they told her that Cordelia wouldn't die, and when she saw the script ... she found out that Cordelia died. She pissed them off in season 4, and I don't know if she broke any rules and stuff ... but after 7 years she deserved some more respect. Especially of you see how great and full of life Cordelia still was in season 5 (same as David/Angel btw) while SMG, AH and ASH and NB played their character flat and lifeless in season 7 ... and they were sometimes phoning their text in. CC gave all, and she deserved more respect than this I think. (If it's true that she is shipped of the series, and that they lied to get her back.)

                            But that is all, off topic.

                            So yeah, stupid retcon ... but also I want to give Nile credit for her amazing post.


                            • #15
                              I choose to think Jasmine's influence over the whole thing was too hyped up. I tend to believe her in her involvement in Connor being born in the first place, because without it we have nothing, but I don't think she's responsible for all the decisions the characters made throughout the series, not one bit. I choose to think Skip was embellishing on that part.

                              And I don't believe Jasmine brought back Angel either. I believe the PTB influenced that, brought Angel back, the First tried to take advantage of this as it saw all the good Angel was capable of, failed so settled for Angel offing himself instead and then the PTB intervened with the snow to prevent the First mucking up their plans.

                              ~ Banner by Nina ~


                              • #16
                                I agree wiht you, I also don?t like how they sum up every action to the fact that "Jasmine was the one who planned everything" but maybe that was the point of S4, to ask oneself if there really are free will, free choices? Maybe, but I didn?t like it.
                                As for Cordy, I think she was possessed after "Spin the Bottle" and when she slept with Connor. But the morning after it was Cordy. Jasmine was controlling her but she still had to act as Cordelia, so the whole "This was a one-night thing" was Cordy. Or maybe Jasmine was only possessing her at certain times, not all the time.
                                I don?t know, I have to watch it again!


                                • #17
                                  I still can't get over the fact how awful season 4 for Cordelia was.

                                  First she finds out that there is no real role for her in heaven after that she is ripped out of heaven, when she came back ... she lost all her memories and when she has her memories back ... takes a higher power her life over and all she can do is see, feel and hear how her body uses, violates and betrays people she loves. She is raped in the worst way possible and after that she is left for death. I think that this is worse than what happened to any of the other characters ...


                                  • #18
                                    I dunno. I think Angel's had it pretty tough. After all aside from living with all the guilt of being one of the most cruel and worst vamps on record, ever. He was tortured for a hundred years in hell, sunk to the bottom of the sea for three months in a coffin shaped box, was forced to leave the love of his life, was forced to give up Connor and lost a lot of close people around him.. Gunn, Doyle, Cordy ect.

                                    I think the 100 years of agonising torture takes the cake personally. A hundred years! It’s really hard to imagine.

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~


                                    • #19
                                      Yeah ... okay ... 100 years hell is enough to make Angel the winner in this contest. And season 4 was not more than some weeks ... but still, it must be awful to be Cordelia in that season.


                                      • #20
                                        I agree. She never became all that mighty as Skip promised. And when she wanted to come down to help her friends, she got amnesia, then her body violated by Jasmine and as soon as Jasmine was born, she went into a coma.
                                        A pretty bad deal. At least, she had a good farewell in S5.