"Angel: After the Fall" Issue #10 Spoiler Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

As the story winds down for a moment after the huge battle, "After the Fall" continues...

Angel's dream was hysterical. Loved the old Golden Age art for Spike & Connor, that was an inspired, inspired moment. A perfect nightmare for Angel.

Angel really is an interesting sort of guy at this point -- both times we've seen him become human now, he's become even more singularly obsessed with being The Guy than he ever was, and both times, that was in spite of being surrounded by people better equipped to handle it. I used to think it was because he blamed himself, for the threat the Mohra posed, for LA being in hell. But is it also ego? His dream sorta makes me think it might be. That would be a bit in character for him, but kind of unfortunate for his well-being.

It was about time to "out" his humanity, and I liked it. Illyria *did* know the whole time, and just, fittingly, didn't bother to comment, probably because she didn't care. And I love Connor's reaction -- protectiveness and also a bit of disappointment in Angel's insistent pathos.

I guess Nina must still be a bit smitten by Angel, she latches on to him immediately and probably even more protectively now that she knows. If it is that way, I hope he's smart enough to treat her better if he gets a second chance. Nina's all class.

Illyria gets the line of the issue with "You are inept as social interaction". Truer words, Illyria.

Spike and Wesley's scene was interesting. Confirmation of a "relationship" between Spike and Spider, again, although with her thinking more seriously of it. And disproof of a Spike/Fredlyria relationship (unless he's lying -- either the Chapter 11 cover is a reveal or a Wes' jealousy thing).

With the use of the "Asylum" characters, we get confirmation of something I had been theorizing from the start -- from the outside, there's nothing wrong with LA, which answers the question of why we haven't heard of it in Season 8. But were they just a device to establish that, or will it be Asylum characters to the rescue? I haven't read it, so I don't know number guy or horned girl, but the other I assume is Beck.

Gunn's villainy is getting more and more impressive, and I'm really wanting him staked now. He killed a Slayer; that's usually enough for me. Worse, he used George to do it in a rather horrible fashion. And what's with him having all this foretold knowledge or plans based on it? That inside line again? Glad to see it's going against him for at least a moment, though, that he *can* be taken by surprise, though. I hope Angel, Nina, Illyria, and the Dragon take him apart.

Great issue, though. Chapter 11 next month, and like another 11th episode (Season 7), it's all about one word -- "Showtime".

[Nina]

Sounds great,

Angel having trouble with his ego sounds very IC for him. The idea that Spike (or Groo) has to save him must be awful for him. Or that somebody else if going to be the hero ... poor proud Angel.

Yay, Nina is back. I enjoy her character ... she seems so normal between the really weird people.

And the bomb is dropped, Angel is human and they all know it now. I can see why Connor is disappointed in Angel not telling him.

I already heard that Gunn is showing that he is not an easy puppy. He is such a complex vampire, but this sounds horrible. I wait until I read the issue, but right now, I want him to stay. It's too long ago that we had some really dangerous vampires.

[Curiouswolf]

[QUOTE=KingofCretins;237300]As the story winds down for a moment after the huge battle, "After the Fall" continues...


Spike and Wesley's scene was interesting. Confirmation of a "relationship" between Spike and Spider, again, although with her thinking more seriously of it. And disproof of a Spike/Fredlyria relationship (unless he's lying -- either the Chapter 11 cover is a reveal or a Wes' jealousy thing).

QUOTE]

What Chapter 11 cover reveal? The Spike/Illyria cover was for Spike: After the Fall #3. I can't buy a bonding moment between Spike and Wes if Spike isn't telling the truth about what happened between him and Illyria.

[vampmogs]

Just read the issue and I really enjoyed it. It's one of my favourite issues so far actually, it just ran really nice and smoothly for me and I didn't have a hard time reading it at all, whereas I found Issue #9 a tad confusing.

I really liked Angel's dream at the start and I think it's very human and natural for Angel. I don't think it was ever a secret that Angel did enjoy his super powers, he confirms that much to both Nina and Connor in the series. I think Angel is a lot like Buffy actually, and I think the circumstances surrounding his turning human is what grates on him. He can't be happy because of them. Buffy never wanted to be the slayer and still in some respects, I don't think she's fully come to terms with it. In 'Helpless' she looses her powers and is, as she believes, possibly presented with a normal life, it's what she wanted. As Willow says it's "opened up so many doors" for her. But Buffy "still knows what goes bump in the night" and as she says, as long as she does she can't be helpless like that. Under the circumstances Buffy couldn't be happy with just being a normal girl, even though that's what she wanted so desperately.

I see Angel as the same, he believes Wolfram and Hart made him human (I personally think there will be a twist for his character and it was the actual Shanshu) and he knows LA is still stuck in Hell and people need his help. As long as that's the case Angel's always going to feel uncomfortable with being human. If he was Shanshued for real, if he stopped the apocalypse for real, if the threats were gone, he's no longer needed for the good fight and he can take rest in the fact he's finally human, but until that happens he can't, just like in 'I Will Remember You.'

I really enjoyed Illyria this issue, I thought she was great and I loved how she so casually revealed Angel's true form. I also really liked Connor's reaction as well and his over protectiveness and anger Angel keeps putting himself in harms way. I'm suspecting this will be a major plot point for their relationship now and may end in tragic circumstances given the haunting Issue 12 covers.

The Spike/Wes scene was very, very cool. I enjoyed both characters immensely in that scene and it's nice they're both discussing their relationships. Also nice to see Spike reference his time slip and his decapitation of Spider, and shows he cares about her if he'll stay away from her to prevent that from happening.

And I'm with King, I'm hoping Gunn gets staked now. When he stuck the blade into the slayer I felt horrible inside, when a slayer dies given my love for characters like Buffy and Faith my heart strings tug a little. I really didn't enjoy that, and I think it will confirm to everyone he's without a doubt evil and needs to be taken out. My sympathy dropped a hell of a lot here, it was a particularly nasty scene. Poor girl.

Lorne and the snow was cool, Gwen sticking up for Connor was cool, Nina was very cool, overall a nice cool issue.

Oh and the reveal at the end, that was superb, can't wait to see how it unfolds!

[Nina]

Read the issue as well, I liked it ... ot the way I loves issues 3 and 5 but it was better than last week ... the art was sometimes perfect ... and sometimes not that perfect. But Runge is a good one, I love his style.

Oh the dream, this is one of those moments that I wished that this was on tv. Can you imagine James and Vincent in those stupid superhero clothes, while David played the old Angel. And I loved the way how it was painted, incl. the font they used for 'Spike's town'. The dream is like Angel dancing and Angel singing Mandy, funny without the intention of the character.

But okay, Angel is insecure about him being a human and if the others would still like/need him. I agree with Mogs that Angel and Buffy have the same issues ... they want to be normal and special at the same time.

Gunn, well I don't pity him or feel for him (never really did in the comics actually). But he is a very impressive vampire. He is cruel, twisted, powerful and much smarter than I had expected. Gunn was always the fighter, sometimes he had a good idea ... but most of the time he let the others think. And he is an evil mastermind now, how he killed the slayer was awful but also very smart. I wouldn't care if he got killed, but Gunn has also the potential to becoma a great Big Bad ... I don't know is there is enough time to keep him around ... but wow he is going to steal Angelus' 'most vicious vampire ever' title if he gets the chance.

Loved Nina, she moves a bit weird, but she behaves like a normal human, maybe she has it a little bit better under control. I liked her in the scenes and I hope that she gets another shot with Angel, move on or find somebody else ...

Gwen is really into Connor, last issue it sounded still a little bit like a dream of Connor. But they are really a couple and it's coming from both sides.

Spikettes, Lorne and Groo ... that must be a team. Not really interesting this issue.

I loved the scene between Spike and Wesley. I love the way how Spike is developing himself in the comics. He really cares about Fred, but without the romantic feelings ... everytime I see Wesley ... I get a Giles vibe, it's not only the painting ... it's also the way of talking.

some random thoughts;

That new green demon dude is hard to understand ... I don't hope that we have a lot of conversations with him.

Angel really didn't knew about Gunn, poor Angel.

Angel is famous ... Cordelia would be so jealous!

The outside world doesn't know anything about LA, I'm curious what actually happened.

Connor is really mature, I love that he is so mature but still can be the youngest as well.

Illyria was fun in this issue.

[NimNams]

Ah, what a difference a great artist makes.

I've gotta admit, this was the first issue that I actually loved reading. Up until now, it's felt like a bit of a chore. But this one? Yep, this was everything I dig about the show in comic book form. I hope this artist stays on for the rest of the run.

[KingofCretins]

Well, if Lorne is the Mayor, then Groo appears to be sheriff now, and the SCVs are the new constabulary. Makes sense.

One thing I loved, the thing I *MOST* loved about this issue, and I forgot to mention it.

Angel's working on a case. That fact alone is what's awesome. He is still working the case from the Rose Bowl incident, and *that* investigation is what leads him to Gunn. For a long time, "Angel" lost the noir detective touch, and epic things just started happening near and around him. Pretty much all of Seasons 4 and 5, and Darla's pregnancy as well. I loved the days where he came to the situation because he was trying to help someone or avenge someone. Hell, it was working a case, his first case, that brought Wolfram & Hart to his attention in the first place. So I *loved* that touch, of him working the Drac-poser for info.

[Heather]

Am I the first person to comment on the fact that Illyria frakking flew? Like..."Look! Up in the sky! It's super!ILLYRIA!" That threw me for a loop, honestly. Never did I imagine flying as one of her abilities...And flying fast, too, by the looks of it.

And I really love the art. I honestly do. I love how it's so grungey and yet kinda noirish and I love how it really looks like a comic book. And, not to mention the fact that things are a lot clearer now for me when it comes to who's who and whatnot. Everybody doesn't look like the same angry blobs... I'm definitely a fan of Runge's.

[ThePoet's<3]

Really liked the slower pace of this issue. It's been so "AHHHHHHH" from the very beginning and the characters slowing down, getting interested in a case, talking with each other, means we the readers get to know what our characters have been up too.

Ah, what a difference a great artist makes.

Gotta disagree with you and agree with Pat Shand on this one. I MISS FRANCO!! Everything was BROWN. Hope this Runge guy is only staying while Uru is busy with Spike: After the Fall. Runge is like Foster to me...

Loved Nina, she moves a bit weird, but she behaves like a normal human, maybe she has it a little bit better under control. I liked her in the scenes and I hope that she gets another shot with Angel, move on or find somebody else ...

Yeah - I thought there would be more between Angel and Nina but it seems she knows he's not into anymore. And let's face it - Angel gets really distracted when there's Big Bad around.

Gwen is really into Connor, last issue it sounded still a little bit like a dream of Connor. But they are really a couple and it's coming from both sides.

But I thought Nina's subtext was kinda weird... Wonder if Nina was kinda attached to Connor? As in - if I can't love the father I might love the son? Or it could have been just Nina being very protective. Maybe she wanted Angel to know she had been trying to protect Connor before Gwen came along and asserted posession. Hmmm...

I guess Nina must still be a bit smitten by Angel, she latches on to him immediately and probably even more protectively now that she knows. If it is that way, I hope he's smart enough to treat her better if he gets a second chance. Nina's all class.

I agree! I was really excited when Nina was a part of the group - but now I'm really feeling sorry for her. Did you get the comment she said about him not being into her? She seems almost out of place now...

Spike and Wesley's scene was interesting. Confirmation of a "relationship" between Spike and Spider, again, although with her thinking more seriously of it. And disproof of a Spike/Fredlyria relationship (unless he's lying -- either the Chapter 11 cover is a reveal or a Wes' jealousy thing).

You know, somehow I don't see Spider as being the one in love with Spike. I see Spike being the one in love with Spider. Spider seems pretty sure of herself. She's a strong person. The whole "remember you love me" came off as wishful thinking on Spike's part. And I don't think he's lying about Fredlyria. Maybe he thought about it and that's what we see on the cover of issue #11.

For the most part, I like Spike's character in the comics. However, I would like to see more Season 7 Spike. More sensitivity. This new Spike began to transpire out of Angel S5. Lynch continued it into his two Spike comics. I think it shows the differences between our Buffy writers and Angel writers. Need to see more of the softer side of Spike... He doesn't have to be an ass all the time.

However, if he really cares about this Spider I suppose it's about time for him to have a relationship that isn't Buffy. (I'm ignoring the cheers. )

With the use of the "Asylum" characters, we get confirmation of something I had been theorizing from the start -- from the outside, there's nothing wrong with LA, which answers the question of why we haven't heard of it in Season 8. But were they just a device to establish that, or will it be Asylum characters to the rescue? I haven't read it, so I don't know number guy or horned girl, but the other I assume is Beck.

Not sure if the girl is Beck or not. The girl-demon with the horns is definitely from Asylum. But the brunette... She might be Beck. Beck created a "costume" for herself. It's a rubber tube-top type of thing. Of course rubber can't be most comfortable thing to wear day in...day out... It may have been Beck - but with Runge's awful artwork - not too sure. Franco drew her much prettier. In this comic she never looked like the same girl twice...

Gunn's villainy is getting more and more impressive, and I'm really wanting him staked now.

I hate that for Gunn. I was hoping he could be saved somehow. This just makes him a real schmuck. I'm really going to miss him not being a part of the A-Team. Maybe when all this is "over" things will return to normal again. And Gunn won't be a villain anymore. He'll be Gunn the great guy.

Someone explain the Slayer scene to me - and/or why the Slayers are with Gunn to begin with?? I was totally confused about that scene! Their behavior - other than when they were under George's influence - was very strange. Is this the way they habe been affected by Hell-A?? Cliff Notes please!!

Chapter 11 next month, and like another 11th episode (Season 7), it's all about one word -- "Showtime".

Bring it ON! I'm ready for some ALL-SPIKE!!!

[Nina]

When Spike said H&R ... is that a mistake and should it be W&H .. or is the Wolf dead and are the Hart and the Ram left together? I didn't got that one.

[Enisy]

You know, somehow I don't see Spider as being the one in love with Spike. I see Spike being the one in love with Spider. Spider seems pretty sure of herself. She's a strong person.

Hasn't Brian practically confirmed that she's in love with him? *digs* Here:

Brian Lynch: I tried to make her, basically, a character that was, you didn't know at any point what she was capable of doing -- we definitely go into that more. But more than that, she was the one character in the book that has utter faith in Spike. She's, like, his number one fan. She has bent over backwards for him, and we'll see the specifics of that in Spike: After the Fall -- I didn't mean that in a sexual way, but then, see, I'm writing Spike dialogue in my head, 'cause he would have jumped in and said that. But people don't like Spider, they want her away from Spike. And the storyline is going in a direction where, you know, they're not hanging out much, they don't have a lot of panel time, 'cause we want to get Spike in with the rest of the characters that are established from the show. But it was weird to me that this girl that worships Spike and will do anything for him and everyone else is counting him out, and she is leading the cheering for him, that people aren't reacting well to her.

And there's this bit from Issue 4:

Spider: I told them to spare you. I had rumblings that started in my heart and ended beyond. And I was right. ... You're the single best thing about this or any world.

But to Spike, as I see it, she seems to be like another Harmony, only with a bit more respect/affection on his side.

[dinamo]

Am I the first person to comment on the fact that Illyria frakking flew? Like..."Look! Up in the sky! It's super!ILLYRIA!" That threw me for a loop, honestly. Never did I imagine flying as one of her abilities...And flying fast, too, by the looks of it.

Wow, I've yet to read this issue, but thats amazing. You'd imagine she must surely have some more hidden powers that she's yet to show. If Willow can fly its not shocking that someone from Illyria's time with her powerbase is able to do something like that.