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Holtz's Final Farewell

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  • Holtz's Final Farewell

    To me when Holtz died near the end of s3 was he truly sorry.And wanted to make with angel especiallly for connor's sake. Or Was it all a set-up to send a final f*ck u to angel by turning his son against him forever?

    I have no idea but I think this is one of those ambiguous moments of the buffyverse. Let's hear your opinion.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

  • #2
    Didn't he die just to screw Angel over? He died because he had a big fork in his neck ... like a vampire killed him. Holtz was too far gone to feel sorry for what he did, all he wanted was revenge ... and this was one last thing to make Connor kill Angel.

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    • #3
      See that's one thought. Can't remember haven't seen for awhile but another is that he really might have wanted to get out of angels way and Justine is the one at fault because she killed him like that and told connor the lies.

      Because Holtz just wanted finally for Connor to be happy so he brought him back for his dad. And he seemed to sort of be to tired to keep up the fight with angel anymore.
      "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

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      • #4
        Holtz actually didn't lie to Connor, he just completely deceived him lol, I think that's what Tim Minear said. Basically Holtz did realise that Angel and Connor were going to share a mutual fate and if he were to try and stand in the way of that Connor would only end up resenting him for it. Holtz accepted this but he wasn't going to make things that easy for Angel hence the final act of vengeance, but everything he said in the letter was true.

        He could see that they were connected after he saw them sparring outside the club. Holtz was resentful but not blind.

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        • #5
          I think he did it for the ultimate revenge, he did it in order to put Connor against Angel. He might have looked sorry or remorseful, but no, that was played out. He hated Angel till the end,that?s my opinion!

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          • #6
            My interpretation of it was that when Holtz saw Connor and Angel sparring he realised that Connor was starting to form a bond with Angel despite everything Holtz had taught him about him. Holtz's hatred for Angel was so deep that he purposefullly wrote the letter for Connor so Connor would think that he was leaving to give him a chance to get to know Angel. Then he went to Justine and made her stab him in the neck so it would look like he had been bitten by a vampire - more specifically, by Angel. His plan worked perfectly. Connor thought that Angel had killed Holtz (thanks in part to Justine filling his head with nonsense) when holtz had been about to walk away anyway. Cue a nice boat ride and a submarine for one lol
            "fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"

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            • #7
              I saw the same thing as all of you, However I also saw the other side that maybe he had just been tired, sick and tired and wanted the best thing for connor. He wanted to be out of the way but Justine did not want it to end and it was her decision to put the bite-like marks on Holtz's neck. And that isn't what he wanted. he struggled at the end because he realised what was going to result and that was not what he wanted. Basically I thought that maybe his love for connor and a new family might have grown stronger than his hate for angelus.

              Anyway thanks for clearing that up.
              "I never learned from a man who agreed with me.'" Robert Heinlen

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              • #8
                If I remember right wasn't Holtz encouraging Justine to stab him in this way? Why'd he give her this tool to do so, or grab her hand and place it to his neck? He could have just as easily handed her a gun or a big old knife to stab him in the gut with. He made an effort to hand her a weapon and force her to use a weapon that would resemble vamp puncture wounds, and made an effort to place her hand at his neck. To me it shows Holtz intended to trick Connor into thinking Angel killed him.

                ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                • #9
                  Yeah, you're right. Justine never wanted to kill Holtz. She was clearly pretty upset that he wanted her to. He even had to tell her to make the next puncture mark after she had made the first. Plus, it was Holtz that dragged her into the whole Angel business so it really wouldn't make sense for her to be forcing him to do something when everything she did was always for him, what he wanted.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nina View Post
                    Didn't he die just to screw Angel over? He died because he had a big fork in his neck ... like a vampire killed him. Holtz was too far gone to feel sorry for what he did, all he wanted was revenge ... and this was one last thing to make Connor kill Angel.
                    I believe the same.

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                    • #11
                      Wes: "Not much of a plan though, was it, really? Easy to figure out which door to kick in when Angel went missing. And not much harder to persuade you to betray everything Holtz had given his life for. Not that it was worth very much. Well, you should know. You're the one that ended it."
                      But what to think of that line from "Deep Down"?
                      Maybe the writers changed their mind like for the end of Buffy season 6 where obviously Spike wanted to get the chip out and then surprise in season 7, in fact he wanted a soul...

                      Or maybe Holtz never wanted this, he just asked Justine to kill him and she tricked Connor...
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                      • #12
                        I always thought Wes was referring to Justine giving up her mission to dust vamps, which was something Holtz had basically given up his life for, in favour of being wrapped up in petty jealously and revenge plots.

                        But you could interpret it both ways.

                        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                        • #13
                          justine's betrayal was telling wesley what holtz's plan was--making connor believe "angelus" had killed him (when it was really justine). justine was helping wesley (under force) to find angel. holtz had given his life to get revenge on angel. by telling wesley where angel was (so he could rescue angel), justine was betraying holtz.

                          holtz's revenge was to have connor love him, hate angel and have angel underwater forever. if wesley rescued angel with the help of justine, justine would be betraying holtz's plan.

                          when angel returned, it was only time until connor would find out that justine killed holtz rather than angelus, which would make connor see that holtz's letter was a lie.
                          Last edited by NileQT87; 21-07-08, 05:27 AM.

                          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                          • #14
                            Holtz was too far gone for any sort of redemption, his need for revenge had consumed him well before he awoke in the 21st century. I do however feel he realized at the end that much of what he did was wrong: "I'm not asking you to follow me into Hell, just help send me there." Even so, taking out his final revenge was clearly the only way he felt his soul would ever be at rest. This is where the real tragedy of Season 3 comes in, neither Holtz nor Angel were truly responsible for what happened. The true villains of S3 were Angelus and Sahjhan, one to commit the crime, the other to manipulate the victims.

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                            • #15
                              Holtz lost everything he cared about because of Angelus and it doesn't surprise me that he uses Angel's son as the perfect opportunity to ruin Angel's life. He knew that Angel and Connor would probably eventually get together again and this was too much for him as he had never had that chance with his own children. It was completely to do with revenge in my opinion.
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