"Angel: After the Fall" Chapter 9 Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

"After the Fall" resumes...

This is probably my favorite issue so far. I love hopeful and romantic Angel, all inspired by teamwork and stuff. I like Spike when he provides the much needed sarcasm.

The fact that Angel had a plan this whole time and made the big rescue little more than a sentimental moment is something I actually liked. It gave him a lot of validation from his allies, a great moment with his son, and a return to heroic status in general.

Connor/Gwen confirmation! Brian Lynch... thank you. I love having been all over that vibe despite you always ignoring my questions about it! And I also like the parallel it creates for father-son bonding because of Angel's curse and Gwen's power. Gwonner rules! Someone make me a banner!

That the loan shark survived is no great surprise, because he's funny. A little disappointed that he has a name, though -- I kinda liked that he might have that whole "tucker's brother" thing that trailed Andrew throughout Season 6 of "Buffy".

I'm very grateful that we actually get a lot of little expository tidbits that had been sort of chinese water torture before -- like some idea who or what Spider is. She is Maria. Spike just met a girl named Maria. Now everywhere he goes... *ahem*. No, it was nice to learn that she's just a uniquely "gifted" person who glommed onto Spike at some point, and not in fact an evil-super-captor (apparently) or force of hand-wringing evil.

I can't say enough positive stuff about the return to the Hyperion. It's symbolically perfect. It's Bruce Wayne announcing he's going to rebuild Wayne Manor brick by brick in "Batman Begins". It's Angel saying "let's go to work" in "Not Fade Away". Having been broken down completely, he can now be rebuilts, and that's the right place, as always, to do it. Nice touch to remember that Spike had never been there, either, and thus had no idea why they were there.

Fredlyria's story is pretty much what most of us thought, but, again, nice to get some expository funk rubbed on it. And having her still so desperately attached to Wesley (in either form) is poignant... although does make a certain cover even more eyebrow-raising.

Another fantastic touch -- Cordy still having her say, as much as she can anyway. Very nice to think of her as being (legitimately) doing the job she was "hired" for in Season 3, and in such a subtle gesture basically letting Wes know all manner of things will be well.

Gunn's plot thickens, and he delightfully reduces himself by one more annoying minion. He reminds me of one of my favorite "Veronica Mars" lines -- "I'm feeling the calculating stare, but where's the villainous hand-wringing and maniacal laugh?" In other words, he is deeply cool precisely because everything seems to be going his way even when it shouldn't be. Makes him inherently badass in the same way that Twilight is.

Couple questions/points of interest -- "Angel the Vampire Slayer! Angel the Vampire Slayer!" Right now, I'm clinging to the idea that that's a tiny bit of fanservice to the folks who expect non-vamp Angel to still be a superbeing of some kind, and not actual foreshadowing. Because, frankly, there *are* a lot of people who would/will jump on that and say "but of course! He'll turn into a guy-Slayer!" -- completely overlooking that the notion of a male Slayer is thunderously concept breaking to the entire Buffyverse mythology.

The question I'd have for Brian would be his use of the word "champions" so diligently to describe the fighters for the demon lords. It was pretty deliberate and repetitive, and left me wondering -- is it an intentional inversion/deconstruction of the Buffyverse's established use of the term to mean Force For Good, Protector Of The Helpless? We got a little of that in Season 5 when Angel admitted to being "tired of that word", and it occurred to me to be so precise with using it in this context, that it was an intentional effort to trivialize that concept in "After the Fall".

[Nina]

Sounds great, I can't wait to read the issue.

And Gwonner (weird name) ... okay I didn't saw that one coming, but it sounds cool. So yay!


And there was a plan, Angel did made a plan! ... woohoo.

[LaJaula]

Ooh, this makes me so happy. Connor's always had "a thing for older women", so that works out nicely. I'm also pleasantly surprised to hear that Angel actually did have a plan-- I had grudgingly accepted the fact that Angel's friends could save him and it would just be a nice little sentimental moment, but this is so much better. I'm also excited for the return of the Hyperion, because the Hyperion is Angel. Although it will be a bit depressing to be there without Gunn, Cordy, or Fred. (Is Wes even there? I guess he can't really go back to the pile of rubble that is Wolfram and Hart.) Speaking of Cordy, I'm glad to see that she's helping out however she can, and also that she's helping Wes, because I think their friendship often gets overshadowed by CordyandAngel.

[LaJaula]

Yay for transcript! Thanks, KoC.

Some thoughts:

My apologies to anyone with insect tendencies or relations.

The reminds me of the scene with Lilah, Lindsey, Lee, and the assassin demon in Five by Five. Very PC and WR&H-ish.

Like, okay, like me, for instance. I’m seeing an electric girl who I can’t really touch and I know you’ve been through that whole “can’t be with the one you love” thing...

And this one is reminding me of Willow's rant to Buffy in Dead Man's Party. I liked it, but it's weird to see from Connor. I mean, an actual concrete admission that he's proud of Angel and that he thinks Angel's doing good. It's been under the surface ever since Origin, but it's neat to see him actually come out and say it. Especially the last part-- "You're my damn father." And Angel is so flabbergasted, hee.

Although the "can't be with the one you love" part is interesting... I would assume he means Buffy, since that's the most obvious choice, but where would he have heard about her and their issues from? Spike? That's a conversation I'd love to see. Or, I suppose he could mean Cordelia, but not-having-sex was never really an issue in their relationship the way it was in Bangel.

Uncle Spike says lots of things.

Hee! It makes it even funnier to me because this is one time that Spike wasn't just making stuff up-- he actually thought he knew what he was talking about.

And we’ll talk about the girl situation once we get a moment, I promise.

Aw, I could really see Angel saying this and being proud that he can advise Connor on something. (Even if it's not necessarily the best thing to be an expert on, heh.) Also-- I wonder if Connor knows that Angel kissed Gwen? "Always the same, dad."

He didn’t find everything. He sure as hell doesn’t know everything.

This made me curious. Gunn knows more about Wolfram and Hart than anyone in Hell right now, most likely, and he blew it up. What didn't he want Angel to find? Or is it something he wanted for himself? I'm gonna go back and reread that part of Issue 3.

Next time, I silkscreen shirts *after* the big battle for control of Los Angeles.

Ha! I remember seeing this image in the preview, and thinking "...what?" But the franchising thing is hilarious.

Door’s jammed. From the inside. Can’t break through.

It's nice to see more mentions of Angel's now-limited abilities (there was the mention of him hurting his fist when he punched the demon earlier). It'll be interesting to see how long he can keep this up for, though the covers to Issues 11 and 12 give me a pretty good idea. But Illyria knows, yes? "He’s not what he was." in this issue along with her line about Angel being "half of what he was" in Issue 3 make me think that she does realize what's up.

He can’t bring himself to say her name, I figured the last thing he’d want is for her to be dragged into this.

This was interesting to me-- Angel's mentioned Cordelia at least three times since her death-- twice to Spike when they're in the plane, and again in Power Play when he explains about the vision. So is his grief just now settling in, or does he feel upset because he feels like he failed her? Her or the PTB-- either Angel seriously messed up their message and maybe he feels guilty about that, or maybe he did exactly what he was supposed to and now he's angry that the PTB would let this happen.

You don’t control what happens. You don’t tell me what will be. You can’t fail at being at my side once and then force yourself in front of me *only to walk away again. You don’t leave. You’re staying with me*.

This quote, more than any other, really made me wish that I could hear Amy Acker saying it. Illyria doesn't use contractions, does she? Not that I can remember. It's a sign of her becoming more Fred-like and less god-like, and I would really love to hear it read in "Illyria's" voice, because I really can't hear it myself. Or maybe a slightly toned-down version of Illyria's voice? A mix, sort-of, between her and Fred.

I also really like how possessive she is of Wesley. I've always thought that Illyria was much more...attached? (I don't think "in love" is really what I'm looking for) to Wesley than Fred was, and that'll be interesting to see here. Although I'm sort-of...anti-excited, since I really don't think that Fred ever loved Wesley and I'm almost sure I'll be proven wrong at some point in AtF. But if not, and we get Illyria's obsession with Wesley, then I'm all for it.

All in all, I liked it. I thought everyone was really well-written, and I have high hopes for the next issues because the gang's back together. I really want to see how this new group interacts with one another, and with Angel. They all know him well enough, but the core group has definitely changed. No Gunn, no Cordy, no Fred-- incorporeal Wes is really the only original one left. We got somewhat of a view of the new group with Angel, Spike, Connor and Gwen in the hotel, but I'm interested to see more.

[lara]

Thanks for the transcripts KingofCretins!!

I read the issue last night, it was really good, I love this:

CONNOR: But it also showed me what you did. And not just for me, or your friends, but for anyone that needed help. Well, look around, *plenty of people need your help*. Like, okay, like me, for instance. I'm seeing an electric girl who I can't really touch and I know you've been through that whole "can't be with the one you love" thing and I kinda brought it up to Spike but his advice was more of the weird uncle variety? so I wanted to talk to you about it, because, you know? you're my damn father.

It's SO funny I'd love to see what was uncle Spike advice!

Oh, and this is going to bug me: Spider and Spike actually... coughs coughs had a thing, 'cause what's that about "the throws of passion" comment he made? That means something is or at least was going on there right? But I like that at least we know now that her name is Maria and she's a special person with some superpowers. But still bugs me the whole thing about her and Spike.

About Wesley and Illyria/Fred, that's confusing, but their interaction is really good, I like where they are trying to lead the story about them.

Oh, also, Wesley was trying for someone on the higher planes to help him, he never said a name but for the references he made it was probable Cordy right? It'll be nice having her back a little, I'm not a fan of her, but her character was too important for Angel and the team, so it would fit if she comes back, even just to lend a hand one more time.

Good seeing them return to the Hyperion, they never should have lelf!! It's great, I think that carries a lot of meaning, you know, go back to the origin, where things were still good, starting all over, it's good.

[Nina]

I loved the issue ... but the page with 'Angel the vampire slayer' felt weird, it was a little bit stupid or something like that.

But I love that they are back in the Hyperion, that Connor is comfortable with Angel as father and Spike and Angel are actually working together.

I also love that Cordelia knows what happens, she sees them. I like that idea more than Buffy's heaven where she lived in a lie that her friends were okay. Cordelia watches over them.

edit:
Wesley's body looked very good for a body that is already dead for months.

[bishopcruz]

Anyone else grossly disappointed by the art? I think I'm the only one who liked Urru, and maybe I'll get used to the new art, but yeesh.

[Nina]

The art wasn't very great ... but it was the first issue of the new guy (forgot his name ... sorry) and he didn't like it as well, but there was no time to change it. According to Brian are the next issues better. And we saw some pretty covers from this guy as well. I think that it will get much better.

[RuFio]

I liked this issue. The endings of Angel's comics always leave a little to be desired for me and this issue continues the trend :/...but the story overall was good. I couldn't be happier to see the Hyperion again!! The art was a little iffy at parts, but what are you gonna do? Also, I'm liking the Connor + Gwen pairing. Totally didn't see it coming but it could work I guess. The best thing about this issue for me is the cover though! Angel in front of the "I love LA" sign is hot!

[NileQT87]

yeah, i think they did a massive short cut on dramatic potential with wesley's corpse. it would have been soooo much sadder if illyria had been holding a corpse that's been rotting for a few months (which it has, unless angel was walking in enough time to find an eva per?n / v.i. lenin / rosalia lombardo a.k.a. sleeping beauty-level embalmer). let's just say--a few months of a body just laying out... it's not going to be looking too pretty. the body goes kerplooey pretty fast without extreme embalming. the first days alone involve rigor mortis, a lot of funky colors that darken the body, gasses bloating the body and red liquids coming out of the mouth and nose--a large portion of why people believed in vampires in the first place, etc... and not to mention insect activity.

buffy's corpse was more realistic after a few months. that was the mummification stage and breakdown of the skin to leave just the skeletal remains.

as for the art... runge has higher highs and lower lows than urru as an artist. urru is very much always consistent. when runge is going for realism, he's waaaay better than urru. when he's going for a comic look and a lot of distant shots, it is a lot worse than urru. if he can get it consistent with his realism-based style, he'll definitely surpass urru. but yeah, this issue had the worst we've seen of his work (not as good as the wesley pages at all--though some frames came up just as good). his covers have been flawless, however, since the high-realism is what he goes for on those.

[vampmogs]

Haven't commented on issue yet, so thought I should now. I really enjoyed this issue but it actually confused me quite a lot. I always have to re-read After the Fall whereas with Buffy I'm very rarley confused as I read. Minor complaint though.

LOVED that they went back to the Hyperion. Such great symbolism there and I adored how Angel was so adamant at everything staying exactly the way it was.

LOVED that Angel had a plan, I saw a few people claiming he was being stupid but that's our Angel.

LOVED the reference to Cordelia, that was just fantastic and so sweet. I agree with comments above me saying that Wes/Cordy was often overshadowed for the Cordy/Angel or Angel/Wes relationship, it's nice to see a nice moment just between them. And it's hauntingly beautiful that she's watching over them.

LOVED Connor and Angel's interaction this issue. Can't believe I'm actually liking Connor, that in itself is remarkable, couldn't stand up in past seasons.

It's nice that Spider got a name, Maria. And it's also very different than what I expected, she seems far more genuine than a nasty piece of work. Also interesting that her and Spike were a bit more intimate, or at least that's the impression I got, than first thought.

The only thing that disappointed me, was that like Nile, I was hoping to see something a tad more horrific for Wes' corpse. It would have made it so much more sad, disturbing and real, the same way it was when we saw Buffy's corpse in 'Bargaining.'

And yeah, the art bothered me a little to. Sometimes it was great, very nice shot of Spike with his girls, of a close-up of Illyria and a couple close ups of Gunn and Wes, but some of it was really poor. I feel really bad saying that though, I don’t really enjoy criticising people’s artwork but it just felt very uneven when you have a few great panels showing off how talented Uruu is, then some really average ones.

[NileQT87]

illyria's disconnect with humanity would have been so much more poignant if it had held wesley's decayed corpse... something i just can't ever imagine fred doing, no matter how much she loves wesley. but it would have been positively heartbreaking for illyria to do it, because it would show both how fred has affected illyria as well as the fact that illyria struggles with human emotions.

ditto with what vampmogs said about seeing buffy's corpse. it was a bigger punch in the gut emotionally than had they not shown the body after 167-168 days.

runge needed the extra month, imo. people complain both ways, but it's not about what an audience wants... it's what they need. if it's not ready, it's not ready.

[ThePoet's<3]

It was an excellent issue!! YAY! We are back at the Hyperion! I've never been so glad to see that old building!! I think I must have felt what the gang was feeling at that time!

I also like that Gwen and Connor are together! I think it's a great 'Ship! And Gwen's not THAT much older than Connor!

Spike just met a girl named Maria. Now everywhere he goes... *ahem*.

"When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way, from your first cigarette, to your last dyin' day"

TOO FUNNY!

There was a bit of "Westside Story" going on there!

I was equally glad that Spider - aka "Maria" seems to be an ally rather than a contender in the fight! Was really glad to see the SCV's there at the end!! ***They looked strangely like Slayers...anyone else think about that??*** Can't wait for the Spike Interlude so we can find more about these lovely ladies!

All in all - great issue!