Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Angel in ATF and beyond that.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Angel in ATF and beyond that.

    It's not a very clear title, but it's to hide spoilers for the people who don't read it. But it's about the question; Angel as a human or as a vampire?

    Since we found out about Angel's humanity ... there are two groups; the people who want him to stay human and people who want Angel to be a vampire again.

    So in which group are you ... and why? And do you think that this is the shanshu?


    I hope that Angel stays human.

    It's a contrast to Buffy and her slayer army, it would be nice to see a normal human 'champion'. While Buffy is fighting the big war, Angel will do what he does best ... saving souls one by one.

    If this is the shanshu (what I think), it's done beautifully. It's not a reward, it's just a change and it's up to Angel to make it a positive change.

    It gives hope for Angel's future ... there can be a day that he will have a family of his own, the people who love him and who he loves, won't get much older than him.

    It gives the writers a lot of interesting new plotlines and Angel new problems.

    There are so many powerful warriors in the Ats cast by now, one less won't hurt. If Angel stays human, Spike, Connor, Groo and Illyria are still there. Angel will be the only normal human in the cast (or Kate has to join).

    Angel won't be a damsel in distress, he can still fight and kick some asses ... look at Gunn, Wesley, Robin Wood, Lindsay and Riley ... they are all human but they were never really helpless.

    For me, Angel isn't interesting because he is a vampire ... he is interesting because he is Angel. And he is still Angel as a human, only with new storylines and problems.
    23
    stay human.
    47.83%
    11
    become a vampire again.
    39.13%
    9
    become a human with superpowers.
    8.70%
    2
    die.
    4.35%
    1
    Last edited by Nina; 18-06-08, 01:30 PM.


  • #2
    I went with stay human, because of the points you've raised already.

    I remember arguing a while back that if Angel had stayed human in IWRY he would've still been able to contribute to the fight, and it was his pride that made him want to turn back. With all that he's gone through since then, it would be fitting for him to carry on fighting no matter what the circumstances.

    And to be fair, Angel fought to vanquish his inner demons, his own tormented soul as much as the need to save others. Human Angel would still have all the memories of what he did as Angelus, so still have that desire to make up for what he did then.
    sigpic

    Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

    Comment


    • #3
      Sueworld posted a list of options on livejournal. I went with duck there. As someone pointed out...he is the duck avenger. Ok, dark. But still. Duck!

      I want Angel to stay human if he's human. None of this fannying about back and forth please.


      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

      Comment


      • #4
        Personally I don't think Angel will have a choice in the matter somehow when it comes to the story.

        I myself would prefer him to stay a souled Vampire, because otherwise the 'magic' will have gone out of the character for me. The idea of Angel wanting to be human is a wonderful element to drive the stories forward for the character, but without that 'hook' I think it would lose something.

        It's the 'Lois and Clark' thing, Once a character has what they've always wanted the story often runs out of steam pretty quickly and I think there's loads left to tell with this particular character.

        Also "Angel the dark avenging pensioner" doesn't quite have the same ring to it somehow.

        Comment


        • #5
          I voted for him staying human, just because I don't want to se him going back and forth, back and forth; and besides that's what he really wants right? He wants his humanity back as a proof that he finally did things right, that he made amends.

          Personally, I don't want to see a show about human Angel, I think that should be, in any case, the finale of his story. See, for me Angel was all about keep on fighting, and believing that maybe you can make a difference someday, no matter if you get a reward or not, I even was perfectly happy with the end in "Not fade away". For me, he doesn't "need" to be human. The fight is more interesting.

          So, I'd like for him to stay human as an ending to his story.
          avatar credit: me!!

          Comment


          • #6
            I voted for "stay human" because I don't think that they could convincingly have him return to being a vampire. What would be the point of this entire transformation, then? If he returns to being a vampire, it would just feel like a cop-out to me. I suppose they could make it believable, but it would be a hard sell. I'm not sure how I feel about him being human-- I'm not overly fond of it, but it has grown on me-- but at this point, I feel like it's the best option.

            Also, one of the things that I really liked about AtS was that it made good on its promises. For the entire duration of the show, the main reason as to why Wolfram and Hart hadn't killed Angel yet was that he had a large role to play in the apocalypse. Every time Lilah, Linwood, or someone wasn't allowed to kill Angel, I just sort-of rolled my eyes, thinking, "Oh, that's convenient." After almost five years, I didn't think this apocalypse would ever actually happen, but it did. The apocalypse happened, and Angel did play a large part in it, and all of those handy little escapes that Angel made actually had a point. I kind of see the Shanshu (if that is what this is) in the same way-- it's been promised forever, and I never really thought that it would actually happen. But it has, and now I think it should stay.
            The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

            Comment


            • #7
              I voted for "stay human" because I don't think that they could convincingly have him return to being a vampire.
              Oh I think that they could, very easily If they wanted to.

              Comment


              • #8
                But then what would have been the point of making him a human now? It's I Will Remember You all over again if just decides to give up his humanity and become a vampire again (I would assume that, if this were to happen, it would be in an attempt to trade his life for Gunn's). If he doesn't give it up willingly, but is sired by Gunn or some other vampire, then I still don't see the point. It's just hurting Angel just to hurt Angel-- it's taking the only hope he has away from him, and I think that Angel's had so much stuff in his unlife go wrong that he really doesn't need this, too. If Lynch can convince me that turning human, then turning back to vamp again was necessary for Angel's development, and that Angel grew and changed because of it, then I'll buy it. But I think it'd be hard.
                The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

                Comment


                • #9
                  But then what would have been the point of making him a human now?
                  As a punishment? Remember this condition wasn't created as a reward but a punishment by Wolfram and Hart. They have made him physically weak, when he needed to be strong.

                  Hasn't it accured to anyone that Angels 'condition' may only last whilst he's in Hell? And that maybe If he leaves the place things go back to how they were before?

                  It seems that the PTB gave him this as a 'curse' more then anything else, and that If everything rights itself, that curse may be lifted.

                  Just an idea...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hasn't it accured to anyone that Angels 'condition' may only last whilst he's in Hell? And that maybe If he leaves the place things go back to how they were before?
                    Yeah, it's occurred to me, but I just don't really like it. To me, it basically invalidates anything that happened in Hell-A and makes it more like a bad dream than reality. If it ends with "Oh, well, surprise! You're actually back in the alley, and nothing that went on here had any consequences," then to me it makes the whole thing useless, because you could basically just ignore it and start a new story right after NFA. It'd be like The Wish or Birthday was an entire season (or half season) rather than one episode-- just some alternate universe that doesn't actually have lasting effects for the "real" world.
                    The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. This wouldn't be some kind of dream, or altered/alternative reality. This would all be happening in 'linear time' so to speak.

                      Whenever Angel gets out, his friends who died would still be dead. It wouldn't be about time resetting itself and him finding himself back in the ally.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh, I guess I see what you're saying. You think it'd be more like the deal with Gwen or Illyria? I guess that could be true, but that would mean that Angel's right and this isn't the Shanshu, and I really think that it is (considering Angel's now fulfilled every necessary aspect to obtain it). I think that really, that's what it comes down to for me-- if it was the SP that made Angel human, then I think he should go back to being a vampire. He still has to fulfill his destiny. But if it was the Shanshu (and IMO it was), then I don't think that he should give that up and become a vampire again.
                        The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                          Sueworld posted a list of options on livejournal. I went with duck there. As someone pointed out...he is the duck avenger. Ok, dark. But still. Duck!

                          I want Angel to stay human if he's human. None of this fannying about back and forth please.
                          For those who are interested here' the results so far from the poll that I stuck up on the AtF comics lj community. Quite a different result from over here it seems, with the majority wanting Angel to stay as a souled Vampire..

                          Last edited by sueworld; 19-06-08, 12:35 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sueworld it looks like some that posted an answer don't take Angel very seriously... a duck?

                            Anyhow there is no way I could ever say why I want him to stay human better than Nina has so please refer to her post to see my reasons.

                            But Sueworld I totally think you have a point with if they wanted to, it would be a perfectly understandable step to make Angel a vampire again and it would not be a cop out. I just don't think his story would have to be over if he stayed human.

                            oh and Ciderdrinker, I understand your viewpoint about it was more Angel's pride in IWRY but I personally disagree, I think he needed to grow more, he wasn't ready to fight a different way at the time of IWRY, all the things that happened to him in later years was essential for him to be who is now and have the strength to keeping fighting as a human.

                            And like LaJaula said too, I love that everything that we have watch in Ats seems to have a purpose, it wasn't just a way to keep the series alive, everything has a point and I love that. Everything about Ats and Ats: After the Fall is complex.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sueworld it looks like some that posted an answer don't take Angel very seriously... a duck?
                              Aww, but just picture him waddling along in his little leather jacket. A wee brooding 'Duck avenger' would be sooo cute!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Isn't DB afraid of birds ... or just chickens?

                                But a question for the people who want Angel to become a vampire again ... and the one voter for superhuman Angel;

                                Is the fact that Angel doesn't have any superpowers anymore the reason that he shouldn't stay (a normal) human? Is a 'normal hero' less fun?
                                Last edited by Nina; 19-06-08, 07:42 PM.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The biting sarcasm for the overall fact of the canon continuations is apparent in that poll with the "centaur" option. Subtle as a brick.

                                  Angel's humanity was twisted into a punishment, but it sure feels like the point of the exercise has been proving he's still Angel anyway -- that's felt obvious in retrospect from the last line of Chapter 1: "But that's how I'm going to win. They think they've changed me". He's basically living out his own cruciamentum on a much larger scale, and it's the fact that it's (ostensibly) a permanent condition that is exactly what makes it so damn heroic.

                                  I think there's a bit of fanboy/girlishness to the insistence that he become meta-human or a vampire again, and it's disappointing. It's as if it was always the vampire and superpowers that made him interesting to people and not the man.
                                  sigpic
                                  Banner by LRae12

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    We already have many ordinary humans who try to be heroes in Angels world, and so he would just be another to add to the pile, sadly.

                                    The Vampire side of Angel adds much needed conflict into his character make-up. It's his strength and his weakness. Much angst and drama comes from that side of him. Thats what makes him so interesting.

                                    I do like my heroes to have something special about them, and I feel that being a souled vamp is Angels 'raison d'etre' so to speak.
                                    Last edited by sueworld; 19-06-08, 07:48 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                                      We already have many ordinary humans who try to be heroes in Angels world, and so he would just be another to add to the pile, sadly.

                                      The Vampire side of Angel adds much needed conflict into his character make-up. It's his strength and his weakness. Much angst and drama comes from that side of him. Thats what makes him so interesting.

                                      I do like my heroes to have something special about them, and being a souled vamp is Angels 'raison d'etre' so to speak.
                                      Apparently not his 'raison d'etre', as he still 'd'etres', doesn't he? The fact that he's still trying to win back the freedom and safety of a city thrown into hell despite having no superpowers is the most special thing we've ever seen about him.

                                      And there are far fewer "ordinary humans" making a go of the champion gig in the Buffyverse than super-powered types. Fred, Xander, Gunn, Anya, and Wood, basically. Wesley, Giles, and Andrew all use magic, so they're out. Oz is a werewolf, Riley is an uber-soldier who had a long-stretch of super-strength. Tara and Willow are powerful witches. And Fred, Gunn, and Anya are all dead. So... Xander and Wood are the "pile" to which Angel has been thrown, I guess.
                                      sigpic
                                      Banner by LRae12

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Well even Angel has been using magic to heal himself and cover the fact he's not a vampire any longer, so he's not been relying just on his human abilities, has he?

                                        I'd hardly call Wesley 'super powered' anymore then I would Giles really. Yes, they use magic, but only to a limited degree.

                                        Nearly all of Joss's human characters have got a little extra 'something' to add to the mix to help make them extra special to the audience, and aid them in what they are required to do in this verse.

                                        As Brain Lynch found showed if you chuck a totally normal person off a high building expecting them to survive as well as a vampire, well then you're in for a hell of a disappointment. As even Brian admits now, Angel should have been dead the minute he touched the ground. So you either realistically limit what you get these characters to do, or give them something to aid them in their 'quest'.

                                        At the end of the day, this is a fantasy show after all.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X