Issue 12 Cover (Spoiler)

[LaJaula]

Here it is. Although again, this is very spoiler-y, so proceed with caution.

Spoiler:

Wow. I think it might be my favorite one yet. It's so beautifully tragic, and I think Angel's face looks perfect. I love that Connor is there with him. As far as speculation goes... I have absolutely no idea. I could see Angel living or dying. Or un-living again. It's only issue 12, so clearly this, right now, isn't the end, but beyond that I have no idea.

[lee]

Spoiler:

OMG, could this be the end of Angel, and connor takes over?

[NileQT87]

Spoiler:

okay. this just made my desktop.

YES! YES! YES! and this is the runge artwork style that i actually do prefer over urru (despite those horrific cartoony urru-wannabe drawings in the spoiler pages). runge is better when he goes for realism and this is exactly what i want. consistency is one of his issues, but i still preferred the wesley pages style (even with the creepy smile).

and as for bleeding angel in the rain and connor holding him... omg. shades of connor finding holtz! and especially if angel dies in a rainy alley... i'm pretty much in love with the alley motif.

i really don't want angel to get vamped again--and if he does, hopefully willow left wesley and/or angel a copy of angel's curse or perhaps lorne is owed some favor by some balancing demon that specializes in soul magicks--preferentially without the cruel loophole.

but if angel does die by vamp-gunn, seeing dead angel in connor's arms could pretty much make me love it. oh, *so* beautiful an image.

angel's serene expression is beautiful. also the fact that the pose is a piet?. would certainly add even more depth (and foreshadowing) to illyria's knifing of angel to the wall crucifixion-style (and spike commenting on it being just that). basically messing with angel as a jesus figure... and then rising again!

[ciderdrinker]

Spoiler:

and as for bleeding angel in the rain and connor holding him... omg. shades of connor finding holtz! and especially if angel dies in a rainy alley... i'm pretty much in love with the alley motif.

Spoiler:

That's interesting because my first thought was the pouring rain in the alley at the end of NFA, as if Connor finds Angel there, but actually now I think about it your analogy is better (cos a dying Angel at the end of NFA would've gone to dust). Surely, Connor's birth was in a similar way too.

Actually that was my second thought, my first thought was "Nah, don't believe it. It's symbolic or something" I genuinely don't think that Joss or Brian would kill Angel off, but maybe that's my fear talking...

[Nina]

I love the cover, I agree that it's the most beautiful one. The art is amazing.

Spoiler:

Wow, Angel looks bad (not the painting of course) ... but I don't see wounds that are 100% mortal ... it could be, but it could also look worse than it is. *hopes*

There 4 issues after this one, so I don't believe that this is the end of Angel. And I doubt that one of his friends/close ones will sire him because they know that Angel prefers to die like this than to be doomed again. So, here I stand with my hope that Angel looks worse than that it really is and that all he needs is a bed, food and some bandaids.

[QUOTE-NileQT87]angel's serene expression is beautiful. also the fact that the pose is a piet?. would certainly add even more depth (and foreshadowing) to illyria's knifing of angel to the wall crucifixion-style (and spike commenting on it being just that). basically messing with angel as a jesus figure... and then rising again![/QUOTE]

Isn't that Buffy's thing? When was the last time we saw Buffy = messias figure? But I linked the same things ... I just hope that he won't die and stand up as a vampire again.

[vampmogs]

Spoiler:

There 4 issues after this one, so I don't believe that this is the end of Angel. And I doubt that one of his friends/close ones will sire him because they know that Angel prefers to die like this than to be doomed again. So, I here I stand with my hope that Angel looks worse than that it really is and that all he needs is a bed, food and some bandaids.

Agreed. If they're going to kill his character off, they wouldn't do it this earlier. Or at least I think they won't, hope I'm not wrong

And yeah, I don't think it's likely Lynch will have any of his friends sire him. In his own words he stated it didn't make sense for Angel or Spike to sire Gunn because they knew he wouldn't want that, can't see how Angel would be any different in that regard.

I really hope Angel doesn't become a vampire again. I think two things are likely;

a) If LA is saved from Hell, everything will be restored to how it should be. Which means Gunn is either dead for good, or no longer a vamp and alive, I suspect dead for good, which also means Angel will be a vampire again ect.

or

b) Angel gives up his own humanity in a trade of Gunns. So Gunn is no longer a vampire and Angel is again.

Whilst the second option would make me incredibly proud of Angel I still wouldn't like it as much as Angel just staying human. He's already been human then turned back again, what would be the point of doing it again? And honestly, has he been any less interesting as a human than he was as a vamp? IMO no, so there's really no need. Keeping him as human opens up so many doors for his character to go.

[Nina]

Option A would feel like Angel bashing to me ... we only see him human when he can't do anything and when he fought for months and finally found a way to work with his humanity and the time that he can enjoy being human ... he is a vampire again.

Option B sounds better to me, and it would make me proud as well. But it sounds a little bit impossible. Gunn isn't a vampire because Angel isn't anymore one ... he is a vampire because he is sired by a random vampire. I think that Gunn is doomed and worse, killed by Angel in issue 11.

[NileQT87]

Spoiler:

actually, ats had more jesus imagery than buffy ever did.

wesley's constant referral to as "judas iscariot" and the "30 pieces of silver" comment being notable. there's the whole scene about dante's inferno with lilah.

connor also had a baby jesus moment (look at how fred is holding angel's jacket over her head ? la virgin mary) and an immaculate conception. wesley also gave a speech about connor's placement among impossible births in mythological stories carrying the possibility of both salvation and armageddon.

ats and angel, himself, is rife with religiosity--starting with his original fallen angel imagery. not to mention the fact that (probably due to db, judging how much it is also pervasive throughout bones), liam, angelus and angel are all quite obsessed with catholic imagery (the father issues, carving crosses into the left cheek to mock god, the obsession with nuns and convents, drusilla's religiosity, etc...). also the redemption and christian heaven/hell concepts.

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

actually, ats had more jesus imagery than buffy ever did.

wesley's constant referral to as "judas iscariot" and the "30 pieces of silver" comment being notable. there's the whole scene about dante's inferno with lilah.

connor also had a baby jesus moment (look at how fred is holding angel's jacket over her head ? la virgin mary) and an immaculate conception. wesley also gave a speech about connor's placement among impossible births in mythological stories carrying the possibility of both salvation and armageddon.

ats and angel, himself, is rife with religiosity--starting with his original fallen angel imagery. not to mention the fact that (probably due to db, judging how much it is also pervasive throughout bones), liam, angelus and angel are all quite obsessed with catholic imagery (the father issues, carving crosses into the left cheek to mock god, the obsession with nuns and convents, drusilla's religiosity, etc...). also the redemption and christian heaven/hell concepts.

Spoiler:

I have a few things I hope for on the subject. I don't want Angel to be a vampire again. I really don't want this all to be an end-around to make him an uncursed, souled vampire -- fanservice just isn't a big enough word to fit around that. But even if he is becoming a vampire again -- it *can't* be his choice. Because 2.07 "The Trial" actually happened, and it made it very clear that Angel prefers a human death to life as a vampire, and was able to convince Darla of the same. It would be grossly out of character for him to voluntarily become a vampire again as an alternative to dying. And if it was "to save the world" or something, then we'd just be doing "I Will Remember You" over again, which would also be no good.

[NileQT87]

Spoiler:

perhaps vamp-gunn will do a "black sleep of kali" indiana jones-style forcing of angel to drink vampire blood. thus, angel won't actually have a choice. he'd try to not drink it, but it could be forced on him. and yep, the trial definitely insinuates he'd try to get himself killed first mortally rather than be turned again.

yeah, i'd have to go with a non-curse version being a gross example of fan service. i'm pro-human-angel, but it would be completely tragic if angel was forced against his will... and perhaps wesley got the curse from willow... or it's in the w&h archives.

perhaps connor could be on his way to rescuing angel, but it's too late and finds him dead. connor would be a good candidate also to dust gunn. or perhaps angel at his last moment manages to do it. i do love that piet? pose, though. definitely insinuates a rising again and puts a lot of emphasis on angel and illyria's crucifixion knives-in-palms scene.

it does seem almost too foreshadowed not to be the case.

well, there's always hope for angel in fray, then.

but it kind of nixes the shanshu. it would be like angel's redemption was all for naught. back to being damned to hell. connor would remain the only thing that remains of things he hoped for--and in a few years that's going to be very sad when connor's going to be physically older than his father. ditto with buffy, etc... angel doesn't have long before the last of his loved ones creep over liam's age.

[sueworld]

Has anyone considered that Angels 'condition' only lasts whilst he's in Hell? And that maybe If he leaves the place things go back to how they were before?

It seems that the PTB gave him this as a 'curse' more then anything else, and that If everything rights itself, that curse will be lifted.

[ciderdrinker]

Has anyone considered that Angels 'condition' only lasts whilst he's in Hell? And that maybe If he leaves the place things go back to how they were before?

It seems that the PTB gave him this as a 'curse' more then anything else, and that If everything rights itself, that curse will be lifted.

I've been arguing that case for a while - it seems no one is listening.../sigh

[sueworld]

That was the first thing that entered my mind when we discovered about his 'condition'. Seems that I wasn't the only one either then.

[ciderdrinker]

I started a thread about whether everything that's happening to all of them is a result of them going through their personal hells here https://www.buffyforums.net/forums/s...ead.php?t=2740

[dinamo]

Does anyone think the cover might be meant to mislead a little? That perhaps thats from after the fight with Wolfram and Hart's army? That he found him like that then, as opposed to now?

[ciderdrinker]

Does anyone think the cover might be meant to mislead a little? That perhaps thats from after the fight with Wolfram and Hart's army? That he found him like that then, as opposed to now?

I think that's entirely possible. My first (or was it my second?) thought was that it was from the alley fight in NFA, and that Angel's not dead in it.

But wasn't it Wesley that found Angel after he jumped off the building, and Connor didn't know where Angel was for the period whilst he was healing?

[Nina]

Yes, it was Wesley ... but we still need an explanation how Wesley in his current state, could help Angel who broke every bone in his body.

Does Connor know about human Angel? If he was in the alley after the fight, he would know right?

[ciderdrinker]

If he was in the alley after the fight, he would know right?

He doesn't appear to be anywhere near the fight when LA goes to Hell in the First Night issues. He was trying to get there but didn't make it if I remember correctly?

[Nina]

Yes, he was saved by Kate and Kate gave him the speech ... after that he got himself a sword and that's all we know. This all happened after Angel jumped of the building and broke a lot of bones. I don't think that this cover is about Connor finding Angel after Angel jumped of the building ... I think that this is Connor finding Angel after Angel's fight with Gunn.

But I agree that this cover doesn't have to be literal.

[lara]

OMG!! What a great cover!! I love it.

Originally Posted by sueworld
Has anyone considered that Angels 'condition' only lasts whilst he's in Hell? And that maybe If he leaves the place things go back to how they were before?

It seems that the PTB gave him this as a 'curse' more then anything else, and that If everything rights itself, that curse will be lifted.

That's a good point, and it could be possible, 'cause sometimes it seems that what they're living it's Angel's personal version of hell, and for him it a moment like this, being "alive" and kind of hopeless when he needs to fight to try and save the world it a big trouble.

Originally Posted by dinamo
Does anyone think the cover might be meant to mislead a little? That perhaps thats from after the fight with Wolfram and Hart's army? That he found him like that then, as opposed to now?

Hummm, probably it IS misleading. But the fact that Connor is there keeps me wondering.

Anyway, if this cover it's not trying to mislead than, OMG!! What now?

Spoiler:

Angel seems to be bleeding to death there, could it be that he would die and Connor will take his place, it could be, it would made sense for his son to carry on his work. It'd be very tragic, but also a good way to end Angel's story don't you think?