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  • Fred and Wesley

    General thoughts about this question: Would Fred have dated Wesley if the mind-wipe had never happened?

    I'm not quite sure that she would have. I don't think that Fred ever shunned Wesley for kidnapping Connor like Angel, Cordelia, and Gunn did, so I don't think that her lack of knowledge about that subject would have had much to do with it. But I think that both her and Wesley's personalities changed greatly as an effect of the mindwipe; they both mellowed out quite a bit. I don't think that Fred was ever afraid of Wesley per se, but in episodes like Soulless and Calvary, she does seem somewhat intimidated by his personality, an aspect that is gone with Wesley's new-and-improved self.
    The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

  • #2
    My problem with their relationship is that Fred falls in love with every guy in het neighbourhood. Wesley is in love with her since the start of season 3, Fred started to be attracted to Wes in season 4 ... but that can be the classical 'bad-boy' effect and there was not much left between Gunn and her, but Wesley was there for her and almost obsessing over her. But it's not until Smile Time that she really picks Wesley. That's almost 2,5 seasons after Wesley 'picked' her.

    It feels unequal to me, like the guys love her always much more than she loves them.

    About the mind-wipe, I think that you're right. It probably played a role. But it's hard to tell because we don't know how season 3 and 4 were without Connor and the kidnapping. We know that Cordy still went bad, but we have no idea how Wesley acted in season 4.

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    • #3
      Fred never shunned Wesley for what he did, I think she knew and understood his reasons but she was forced to abandon him because of Gunn and Angel. Gunn was extremely hard on Wesley. In season 4, Fred started to have feelings for Wes but she didn?t want to believe them, since she was still with Gunn, imo.
      Have you realised that Gunn is very harsh on betrayals in the team. When Angel left the team, it took Gunn a long time to trust Angel again and now the same thing with Wesley and he is very harsh on them verbally.
      What is your opinion?

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      • #4
        hmmmm....see, I think it may be just the opposite....I think the mind-wipe may have pushed Fred's feelings for Wes into the background in early S5....she had an attraction to him that was evident in Supersymmetry and Soulless, but Connor was also around at that time...it doesn't really tell us what all was extracted from their memories, if it was a lot of time, or if it was ONLY Connor, but a lot of the instances that they had an emotional bond were revolving around Connor, so perhaps it just took her a while to re-find those feelings, in essence over-coming the mind-wipe. Wes wasn't affected in regards to his feelings toward Fred with the mind-wipe, because he had feelings for her before Connor came along.

        I don't know, I'm really tired and that may have made no sense....
        sigpic

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        • #5
          I also think Fred looks better and has more in common with Wesley than she has with Gunn, although Fred and Gunn never bothered me but I always had a feeling that their relationship was never gonna last, it was a little superficial!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nina View Post
            My problem with their relationship is that Fred falls in love with every guy in het neighbourhood.
            See I don't have a problem with that, heck in some ways I think Fred is the smartest girl in the verse for appreciating all the hotness that was around her

            In all seriousness I always fel that it was very deep and real what Fred felt for Wesley. I honestly never understood the Gunn thing and wasn't on board with their being in love. I know it is canon, but it kind fall into the Cordy/Angel relationship, the writers keep telling me that there is all this love and yet my heart and brain can't compute.

            Did Wesley love her more? It is definately possible but I put that more on Wesley and the way he is, he is so passionate in every avenue of his being. Again I have to compare to how I view Angel with Cordy. I saw his love, he gives the person he loves everything of himself, Cordy is a different personality, she loved him but I didn't see the err epicness on her side. Oh man does that make any sense at all, I am having a hard time convaying what is in my head and for once I am really not trying to knock their relationship.

            Uh in a nutshell is comes down to the individual person on how they approach love, and then express that said love....I am just going to stop now.

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            • #7
              I really really don't like them as a couple. I think he likes/loves/worships her too much. I don't reallu like the character he turned into. I really thought his arc was very interesting but I didn't like him much as a character in the end. I was glad Fred became Illyria, and I hope that Illyria and Wesley never have anything more than a friendship/guide-ship sort of relationship. Fred seemed to go for every guy at some point which I thought was silly. Once Cordelia was gone it seemed like they had to make some sort of romance so made the one that had been ''brewing'' for so long happen, and made it more tragic by having it happen just before she's taken over by the ass kicking blue thing. It may have worked had Illyria not come along, but as it was I just thought it happened because the writers wanted to make things more tragic.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dinamo
                it was I just thought it happened because the writers wanted to make things more tragic.
                Yes, exactly, which bothers me. The only reason that Wesley and Fred ever got together was to make her death more tragic for Wesley-- that he had her, briefly, but now she's gone. It wouldn't really have mattered either way to Fred if she had gotten to be with Wesley briefly before she died, because I think that Wesley would have been constantly at her side as she lay dying even if they weren't actually dating. And it wasn't like Fred had been waiting for ever and ever just to make it work with Wes; she had been in love before, with Gunn, so it's not like those brief days they had together were a once-in-a-lifetime thing for her. Only for Wesley. And it's odd for me, because I love Wesley so much more than I do Fred, but the fact that they put them together only to further his storyline and kill her off still makes me somewhat upset.

                Really, I just don't like the way Fred/Wesley was handled in Season Five. I do think that there were hints in Seasons Three and Four that she had some sort of feelings for him-- she goes to him in Billy; she considers them good friends, at least, by Couplet; she's the only one to trust him in Forgiving as well as the only one to visit him in the hospital after Angel's attack, not to mention the fact that she does talk about him a lot in the beginning of Season Four (I think Gunn has a point, here) and her reactions to his kiss and also the knowledge that he was sleeping with Lilah. But in Season Five, we really get nothing on her side until You're Welcome, and then suddenly...she likes him because he can do magic. Which...he could totally do three years ago when you met. Mkay. Then we get the short-lived happiness followed by death, and I've already stated why I don't really like that. So....I'm blaming the mindwipe for why their relationship got (IMO, from a viewing standpoint) worse. Because I can.
                The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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                • #9
                  Well, I just watched episodes "A hole in the world" and "Shells" a couple of days ago, and have to agree with LaJaula here, the writers put the romance just to make everything way more dramatic for Wesley, (which worked, at least for me, I cryed my eyes out for poor Wesley, it was so sad) but it wasn't necessary, he would have been by Fred's side no matter what, 'cause it was pretty clear that he loved her too much, and I don't think the brief time together they had was "the best days" of Fred's life, 'cause for her everything was just starting, it wasn't like she had been waiting for years to date him. She even dated Gunn, for a while (which I couldn't really understand, for me that couple didn't make sense at all) and the thing with Wesley, by the time she died was still in the beginning for her, I mean it was obvious that she liked him and had feelings for him but she wasn't as inlove as Wesley. And that kind of bothers me, 'cause I've come to like Wesley so much, in Angel, he was my favorite (until James Marsters came to the show in season 5) and I think that he deserve to have his romance with Fred developed for something more than just the drama effect the writers intended.
                  avatar credit: me!!

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                  • #10
                    I agree that Fred and Wesley were only put together to make Fred's death more tragic. Also Fred and Gunn never really did it for me, it was like Buffy and Riley, it worked in principle but in practice it just didn't feel right!

                    I found it very sudden how Fred liked Wesley in Season 5. This may have been because I've only watched it once, but when Fred kissed Wesley, I had to rewind the scene and watch it again, all the time shouting at my tv '...what?! wait, WHAT?!' I just didn't get it!

                    With regards to every guy being in love with Fred, to me it felt like the days when I used to write fanfiction about bands, and make each and every member in love with me! It felt like Fred was in the middle of a story she was making up about herself, and so she could be as self-indulgent as she liked.

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                    • #11
                      All of the relationships on Ats have been rather "meh" for me, except for Angel/Darla and Wes/Lilah. I wasn't really interested in Fred/Gunn at all, and don't have the emotional investment in Fred/Wes that a lot of people do. But then I wasn't never really that invested in Gunn until late season 5 and 'After the Fall' so that might have to do with their relationship a little. He was a nice enough guy and I didn't not enjoy him being around but I just was never really that effected by him.

                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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