Season 4

[buffyholic]

I?ve finished this season and I gotta say that I?m surprised by how much I liked it. My major problem with it is the plot. I just find the plot to be a little confusing and just too much put into it. Also the Cordelia/ Connor thing annoys me a little. But still, there is great stuff. How the characters are developing and their conflicts are very interesting, mainly Wesley and also Lilah. Faith?s appearance is just pure gold. The episodes are very strong and very dark. I really like the Apocalyse stuff and how everything and everyone became so dark. This is not the best of Angel but it?s great fun and well worth the watch.

What about you? What do you think about season 4?

[skinless]

What about you? What do you think about season 4?

I never really liked season 4. I think the Plot is bad, Jasmine is unbeliveable, The Connor and Cordelia thing IMO is Disgusting and the whole season as a whole reminds me of season 4 of BTVS. Not very good at all.

[Nina]

I've already posted that season 4 is my favourite season. Of course there are things that I don't like ... Evil Cordy and I hated the sex scene between Cordelia and Connor. But it has so many great things,

The great pacing, everything happend in 3 weeks if I'm correct ... which feels a lot better than that season 4 would happen in one year.

The amazing big bad, never there was a plan of the big bad so grey. The dilemma between freedom or peace is a difficult one and it's so much better than; "I'm evil, I'm going to kill the good guys and destroy the world. Mwuhahaha!" Jasmine was well played and very scary ... evil!Cordy was not a favourite, but Jasmine is one of my favourite big bads.

And if that weren't enough bad guys ... meet the Beast, Angelus and Lilah + W&H.

The acting, Charisma wasn't really great as the big bad ... but David showed some great silent acting, Alexis was great as the tortured Wesley and the other cast members (main, regulars and guests) were good but the prize goes to Vincent Kartheiser. His Connor was very well played; the young, used, tortured, brave and confused hero was amazing.

The guests, Gwen, Darla, Faith, Willow and Angelus are fantastic guests ... Angelus was a bit of a let down after his last big arc in BtVS season 2 ... but he was still creepy.

The episodes, the best season opener in the verse, a great Faith arc, a good Jasmine arc, and before those arcs, there were amazing episodes with the Beast. And I adore "Spin the Bottle".

The relations, I'm no fan of C&C, but all the other relations were great. The Wesley, Fred & Gunn triangle was very well done, Wilah , Faith & Wesley, Angel & Connor, Angel & Wesley and Angel & Faith.

[Boltmaiden]

Season 4....when it first aired I flipped out..alot
This is the only season where parts of the story made me literally ill... Cordelia Angel...than bad Cordy..then Connor/Cordy...i had a hard time

However there were some great stuff from this season and now that I have stepped back from it and look at it in the series as a whole I accept it so much more now.

So I see both Skinless and Nina's sides on this season

I personally loved Faith's appearance..I loved her parts with Wesley..loved her kicking Connor's uh... butt, she was defiantely one of the highlights for me.

Always like an appearance by Angelus..yeah not as epic as season 2 of Buffy as already mentioned but still happy to see him, also I got a cameo of Willow and her and Fred were hilarious.

I also loved Jasmine as a Big bad too, her motive were different than most of the villains we've seen and she really thought she was the answer for the world. Plus it brings about one of my most proudest moments from Angel..which I have discussed in the ship's thread. Love the battle between him and Jasmine. Also the finale of the season is amazing, just loved the hard choices and the what happens now feel.

I need to go back and watch the Wesley/Lilah stuff, for some reason I don't remeber them all that well. And I could take or leave Gunn and Fred...but then again I am biased in my Fred/Wesley love so maybe I should look at them again. For me I liked Gunn hooking up with Gwen..that was hot and thought they would have been an interesting couple. When was that..i forgot anyway...so all in all not my favorite..probably my least favorite as a whole series but yet there is definately alot to watch again and enjoy.

[LaJaula]

The guests, Gwen, Darla, Faith, Willow and Angelus are fantastic guests

Ooh, yes, the returning characters this season were great. I'm currently rewatching season four with a friend, and I have to tell her "Oh no! Don't look at the DVD menu for Salvage! Or Orpheus! Or Players...Inside Out...oh, you might not want to look at Home...unless you want to be spoiled."

I think that Season Four is by far the best season of Angel, for reasons Nina already stated and probably a few hundred other things I can't remember right now. But one that I'll add is that it's never boring. Season One is boring in the beginning, when the show struggles to find its footing. Season Two has the stretch in between Reprise and Redefinition that's tough to get through, and the episodes in Season Three between Connor's birth and kidnapping aren't great either. The beginning of Season Five I also find boring. Season Four brings it in every. single. episode.

[buffyholic]

It has some bad moments, I?ll admit but what fascinates the most about this season is how incredibly dark the characters are. They are totally in a grey area, especially Wesley. The Apocalyse stuff is great too and I actually feared for their safety. IMO, better and more complex than season 3.
Now, my ratings:
Deep Down - A
Ground State - B
The House always Wins - C
Slouching Towards Bethlehem - B
Supersymmetry - A
Spin the Bottle - B
Apocalyse Nowish - B
Habeas Corpses - A-
Long Day?s Journey - B
Awakening - B
Soulless - C
Calvary - B
Salvage - A
Release - A
Orpheus - A
Players - B
Inside Out - B-
Shiny Happy People - B-
The Magic Bullet - B+
Sacrifice - B-
Peace Out - B
Home - A-

[Nina]

My list;

Deep Down - 9.5
Ground State - 7
The House always Wins - 5
Slouching Towards Bethlehem - 6.5
Supersymmetry - 8
Spin the Bottle - 9
Apocalyse Nowish - 9
Habeas Corpses - 9.5
Long Day?s Journey - 7.5
Awakening - 8
Soulless - 9
Calvary - 8
Salvage - 9.5
Release - 9.5
Orpheus - 10
Players - 7.5
Inside Out - 8
Shiny Happy People - 8
The Magic Bullet - 9.5
Sacrifice - 7.5
Peace Out - 8.5
Home - 8

[Ralphie]

Season 4 is not my favourite, but here is my list

Deep Down - 7.5
Ground State - 7
The House always Wins - 5.5
Slouching Towards Bethlehem - 6
Supersymmetry - 7
Spin the Bottle - 8
Apocalyse, Nowish - 9
Habeas Corpses - 8.5
Long Day?s Journey - 7.5
Awakening - 7.5
Soulless - 9
Calvary - 8
Salvage - 9
Release - 8.5
Orpheus - 8.8
Players - 7
Inside Out - 8
Shiny Happy People - 7
The Magic Bullet - 7.5
Sacrifice - 7
Peace Out - 7.5
Home - 8.5

[buffyholic]

I forgot to mention that I also think Jasmine?s arc was very good, very thought-provoking. I wouldn?t want to live without my free will. What do you think about the Jasmine arc and what are your thoughts about that? About free will and choice? Would you like to live like Jasmine wanted or do you wanted your choices?

btw, I?m starting season 5 this weekend.

[Nina]

Season 5 needs some time, the beginning is maybe the worst beginning of a season ever in the verse ... but the second part is pretty good.


Jasmine's dilemma;
The people were happy when she was leading them, it's not something evil until you aren't under her spell anymore. That's the point where you see how big the influence of a free will is and how scary people are when they lost their will.

When I watched it, there was for me not one moment that I was thinking that Jasmine did the right thing, because the people changed in zombies. But I can understand that the people who were under her spell and knew how fantastic and peacefull that was, had a big problem with this dilemma.

In the end, nothing is more important than a free will in Ats.

[sandpaperback]

I recently rewatched this whole season. I found it difficult to watch knowing that Cordy was evil the whole time and tricking them little by little. ALso the c/c was so gross. As this season originally aired I loved it. I thought the cliffhangers were great. Knowing a huge secret like that really changes everything. I loved the whole angelus and faith thing. I also really liked the jasmine thing especially how it showed Fred being so tough. and thank god connor was "killed." He got more and more annoying as the days went by.

[Cell]

What about you? What do you think about season 4?

I've said it before, but Season 4 of Angel was bar none the best season ever produced in the Buffyverse. From top to bottom it was great with not a bad episode in the bunch.

[wedonotspeak]

after season 4 i couldn't really get into angel
i watched all of it, but connor was intensely irritating, and WTF happened to season 5? worst ending of a show ever!

i was so disappointed in the last episode
i pretty much flipped out

[Nina]

What didn't you like about Not Fade Away?

Spoiler:

Was it the open ending, the way the characters acted in the last episode or the story?
If it is the open ending, maybe you can read the comics Angel: After the Fall.

[Nenya Awakens]

Hmmmm, I was not a fan of Evil Cordelia, i felt they had made such an amazing charactor developtment with her, and then they just destroyed it.
she should have been aloud to do so much more.

I was not a fan of jasmine, as much as i liked the Peace OR freewill plot line, i just did not like how it was portrayed.

Connors constant winging just got on my nerves, i found him to needy, much like Early Dawn in Buffy series 6.

My least Fav series i'll admit. but still frequently watched when i'm able to borrow it.

[lee]

i think Angel s4 is the worst of the 12 Buffyverse seasons(although it is still good)
If you take away Soulless to Orpheus, the rest is quite weak and unmemorable.
I basically hated Jasmine and Connor. I prefered Wes when he was nice and goofy.
Cordelias character just got worse and worse, i was so glad when she left.

s5 was like s1, it had some of the best 10/10 Angel episodes theres been but about half the episodes
are just averege. S2 and s3 are imo, the most consistant with the best character mix and tight storylines.

[Pandora's_Box]

I just posted my Top 20 of Angel. I can't decide if my favorite season is Season 4 or 5. On one hand, the central arc of Season 4 is pure gold, it's my favorite moment of the show and Season 5 has one of the worst first episodes and a not very good middle seaon. On the other hand, the last five episodes of Season 4 are awful, it's the worst Season ending of all the Buffyverse and Season 5 contains my three favorite episodes of the show. I'll need a third rewatch to decide I guess.
Here's my Season 4 rating:

Deep Down - 9
Ground State - 8
The House always Wins - 2
Slouching Towards Bethlehem - 6
Supersymmetry - 3
Spin the Bottle - 7
Apocalyse, Nowish - 10
Habeas Corpses - 10
Long Day?s Journey - 10
Awakening - 10
Soulless - 10
Calvary - 10
Salvage - 10
Release - 10
Orpheus - 10
Players - 7
Inside Out - 9
Shiny Happy People - 3
The Magic Bullet - 5
Sacrifice - 2
Peace Out - 1
Home - 0

[LaJaula]

If you take away Soulless to Orpheus, the rest is quite weak and unmemorable.

See, I find the Angelus arc to be the weakest piont of Season Four, because it blurs the lines so much (or, rather more clearly defines them, I guess) between Angel and Angelus. I had never thought of them before as two separate entities, but as two parts to the same whole. Also, I find this version of Angelus to be boring-- he doesn't even get to kill any secondary characters! I do like the Faith/Wesley-ness, but that's really it. I find the rest of the season to be much better.

it's the worst Season ending of all the Buffyverse

What didn't you like about it?

[skinless]

Connors constant winging just got on my nerves, i found him to needy, much like Early Dawn in Buffy series 6.
My least Fav series i'll admit. but still frequently watched when i'm able to borrow it.

You have a point there, It Really gets on my nerves when someone whines like the two of them do. I just cant stand it. And S4 of Angel is definitly my least favorite season in the Jossverse and Is too bad I'll have to watch it when I get to the Angel rewatch.

[Nina]

I agree that he whined and that it was annoying ... but somewhere Connor's whining was less annoying than that of Dawn. Connor had some reasons to whine and he could save himself ... Dawn was only another problem for the scoobies because she needed a babysitter all the time, she didn't add something to the fight or to their normal life.