Spike: AtF Issue 3 Cover (Spoilers)

[Enisy]

Springtime, when a young vampire's thoughts turn to...

Well. Won't exactly be dropping the comics over it, but I can't say I'm dancing circles either, especially given how certain cliques are bound to react. The cover is very pretty, though -- one of Franco's best. We'll get a coloured version, too, won't we?

[LaJaula]

Eh, I'm not really sure how I feel. I really liked Spike having an actual friend, a woman, that he wasn't attracted too. And I never really saw Illyria as feminine, y'know, but I guess this is a hybrid Fred-Illyria-weirdness. But then I never saw Fred as attracted to Spike at all either, so...I'm hoping if they do get together (because the cover could just be a representation of the mood that issue-- maybe there's just the romantic feelings and then they STOP! because they realize that it's bad ) it was just because they both feel afraid and alone. Or something.

But I am interested to see how this will change the dynamics in A: AtF. I can't even imagine how Wesley will react. And I kind of think that, even if he was really genuinely romantically interested in Frillyria, Spike would give up now that he knows that Wes is back.

Edit: Although I do really like the artwork. They're reminding me of Spike and Dru, somehow-- maybe because of the kissing-while-in-the-midst-of-destruction.

[NileQT87]

nooooo! poor wesley. that's wesley's arc.

::grumble::

man, they're doing a great job of running spike's character into the ground. evil hefner bimbos (i'd love spike to make carnage of them), stealing wes' girl + the genderless pure demon who inhabits her shell that was once a mass of tentacles (does everybody forget that part?)...

it's one thing for spike to be hiding fred popping up in illyria from the others... especially with wesley still having a presence. hiding the fact that illyria is cracking and going insane with fred popping through. that was actually an arc that i liked. it got a great payoff moment when spike says he wouldn't have brought her if he had known wesley was around... and then illyria turns into fred. ditto with spike finding fred on the ground. i liked that.

hopefully, this is just character popularity fan-service for a cover, but it doesn't reflect the continuing story.

i think it's been more than confirmed that wesley's pre-death journey in season 6 was supposed to involve going into a twisted relationship with illyria and they were trying to cram elements of that into a girl in question and not fade away ("be blue. be anything. don't be her. don't ever be her." / "would you like me to lie to you now?").

if there was one arc i wanted (possibly even beating the great surprise that was human-angel), it was wesley/fred/illyria.

[Enisy]

Same here. I adored Wesley/Illyria in Season 5 of Angel, and we only got to see the tip of the iceberg there. I don't want them to drop it or discard its internal complications in favour of external ones so early. Meh.

I'm also wondering if the attraction is more between Spike/Illyria or Spike/Fred. Neither has the sufficient setup so far, and I'm biased in Wesley/Fred's and especially Wesley/Illyria's favour, but if I had to choose, I think I'd prefer Spike/Illyria, if only because Fred has hooked up with or had a crush on almost every single member of Angel Investigations already (Wesley, Gunn, Angel himself). Amy Acker even joked about it with Joss in their A Hole in the World commentary.

[LaJaula]

I'm also wondering if the attraction is more between Spike/Illyria or Spike/Fred.

Unfortunately, I think it's Fred, because the way Spike treats Illyria in A:AtF is nowhere near how he'd treat her if he were in love with her.

Edit: Also, it makes Illyria's comment about Spike watching her while she bathes sound weird.

[Thomas]

You've got to be kidding me? I really hope this is more symbolic or something and not actual Spike/Illyria in a relationship. Even if it's Spike/Fred, I doubt Fred would bone the first corpse she sees.

[Nina]

But this is all happening before A:ATF issue 5 right? In that issue did Illyria change in Fred when she saw Wesley. Not when she saw Angel or Connor, but only when she saw Wesley. I don't know what that means, but it's not over between Illyria/Fred and Wesley ...

This cover is a big suprise for me, I'm not sure what to think about it. I wouldn't mind the couple Fred/Illyria & Spike if Fred wouldn't be in love with everybody (in three years, Angel, Gunn, Wesley and Knox) ... I'm not against the couple I guess ... I'm against Fred having another crush.

I don't blame Spike, he thinks that Wesley is dead ... and Fred is the only person who really cared about him in LA. They are in hell, nobody knows who are alive and you can be dead in a minute. No, I don't think that Spike behaves badly here ... actually it's a very normal thing to do.

[KingofCretins]

Wesley *is* dead... deader than Spike, anyway. I've got no problem with this development. It's more organic than... other 'shippy directions the comic continuations have gone so far

It's a good point that Illyria reverted with Wesley around, but keep in mind, that was an anticipated reaction on Spike's part, which is why he freaked when he saw Wes was there. So he's seen Fred pop out more than a few times, I would suspect. It's not just a Wes thing for Fredlyria. That's sort of how I think of her at this point, Fredlyria.

[Dorian's Kitten]

But this is all heppening before A:ATF issue 5 right? In that issue did Illyria change in Fred when she saw Wesley. Not when she saw Angel or Connor, but only when she saw Wesley. I don't know what that means, but it's not over between Illyria/Fred and Wesley ...

This cover is a big suprise for me, I'm not sure what to think about it. I wouldn't mind the couple Fred/Illyria & Spike if Fred wouldn't be in love with everybody (in three years, Angel, Gunn, Wesley and Knox) ... I'm not against the couple I guess ... I'm against Fred having another crush.

I don't blame Spike, he thinks that Wesley is dead ... and Fred is the only person who really cared about him in LA. They are in hell, nobody knows who are alive and you can be dead in a minute. No, I don't think that Spike behaves badly here ... actually it's a very normal thing to do.

Yeah, I'm having similar feelings. And isn't this supposed to take place like a couple of weeks after the episode Girl in Question? In that epi we are definitely given the impression that for Spike it's still all about Buffy. His taking care of Fred totally makes sense, and I think that he had some strong feelings for her before her death, but...yeah the romance would seem awfully fast.

[KingofCretins]

Yeah, I'm having similar feelings. And isn't this supposed to take place like a couple of weeks after the episode Girl in Question? In that epi we are definitely given the impression that for Spike it's still all about Buffy. His taking care of Fred totally makes sense, and I think that he had some strong feelings for her before her death, but...yeah the romance would seem awfully fast.

Well, we were given the impression that it was still all about Buffy for Angel at that point, too, but the weight of the series itself says otherwise. It's not hard, and perhaps intended, that their behavior in "The Girl in Question" be considered habitual, a relapse into Buffyholism for them both. Angel in particular -- he was in love with Cordelia, that's canon and textual as far back as Season 3 of "Angel".

I would have loved for more commentaries in Angel Season 5. I got the impression, like the Buffy/Xander vibe in early Season 7, that they started out an a Spike/Fred arc deliberately, and then only decided to bail on it as they continued forming the season. Probably (as they were with Angel/Kate in Season 1) at least partly terrified of the pitchfork and torchwielding 'shippers

But I was into it in Season 5, I actually thought Fred and Spike would have been a pretty good couple. She's a perfect foil for his wit in many ways, and, well, Illyria could turn him into a Menger sponge.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Yeah-I took Angel's reaction at the time as habitual, but I'm not so sure about Spike. It's not that I don't think he could ever move on, it's just that I think he takes longer. I mean seriously, he put up with Dru for an eternity.

That said, I agree that Fred would have been a nice choice for Spike. She would have probably suited both his William side and his Spike side. In a way though the attraction would have been similar to the one with Wesley. Spike, like Wesley, is the geek that went to the dark side and is stuck now forever trying to work his way back.

Also, I would imagine that it would be nice for Spike to be with someone who hadn't known him when he didn't have a soul.

[ThePoet's<3]

Oh flippin' Hell-A.

This is a Ship I am NOT looking forward too. Oh Spike - must we go down this path???? Crap.

I would rather it be with Fred than with Illyria. I don't like Illyria. There's nothing "chemically" appealing about her whatsoever except when she turns into Fred! Which - the last comic made more sense now with Spike saying "me and Fred".

I like your comparison of Wesley and Spike DK. They are both geeks who drifted to the dark side. Which I guess is why both are drawn to Fred - the sweet damsel in distress. I don't think either one of them are drawn to Illyria except for the Fred Factor.

and I do believe it is quite soon after "Girl In Question". I don't see Spike moving on from Buffy. However, this is Spike and he will make the best of this from his point of view. So, he will not spend an eternity in hell without a squeeze.

BUT! How does Spider fit in with all of this?? Because Spike mentions that Spider and the SCV's have pretty much fulfilled many of his *ahem* needs in more ways than one!

My only HOPE is that ALL of this is an alternate reality Hell and things will revert back to normal when they do whatever it is for them to leave.

And yes - the artwork etc. is great. Thanks Franco.

at least partly terrified of the pitchfork and torchwielding 'shippers

***Bangs pitchfork and flicks Bic***

[Enisy]

This cover is a big suprise for me, I'm not sure what to think about it. I wouldn't mind the couple Fred/Illyria & Spike if Fred wouldn't be in love with everybody (in three years, Angel, Gunn, Wesley and Knox) ... I'm not against the couple I guess ... I'm against Fred having another crush.

This is the quote I referenced earlier, by the way:

Amy Acker: James kept telling me he thought we would be love interests. I was like "Ohhh, no!"
Joss Whedon: He was talking about the shhhhow, right?
Amy Acker: (laughs) Oh! Maybe that's where I got confused.
Alexis Denisof: Well, who hasn't been a love interest for Fred? Let's face it.
Amy Acker: That's true. I was the corporate slut. (laughs)
Joss Whedon: A little bit, yeah.

But I'm not sure I have the energy to get indignant over this. My past debates in the Phantom of the Opera fandom seem rather silly now, since, whatever the end result, there's only one relationship there that will go down in history and be referenced in articles and make its way into polls and be known to the general public years later -- and it's not Raoul/Christine or Phantom/Meg, no matter how much people pout and whine and proclaim how much better/healthier/hotter they are. And similarly, in the Buffy fandom, Spike/Buffy and Angel/Buffy are the 'ships that are going to endure, no matter how many Spike/Illyria's and Spike/Fred's and Angel/Nina's come after them. *shrugs*

*then borrows a pitchfork from ThePoet's<3*

Good point about The Girl in Question, DK. I would also note that, when Nile accused Spike of "stealing Wes's girl", Chris Ryall answered --

Er, it's just an attention-getting cover (that does have a raison d'etre in this issue), but I really hope you read the issue when it comes out to see that you actually missed the mark with your comments here.

-- so I don't think we're looking at an actual relationship at all, let alone Twu Wub 4eva.

[vampmogs]

I mean seriously, he put up with Dru for an eternity.

I wouldn't say "put up with" would be the accurate way to describe that pairing. Spike was head over heels for Dru, and clearly appreciated what they had together as shown in Crush. It only turned sour after Angelus and Spike sometimes got tired of her after she became weakened and disorientated, but remember that's not a long time considering how long their relationship was going on for.

That said, I agree that Fred would have been a nice choice for Spike. She would have probably suited both his William side and his Spike side. In a way though the attraction would have been similar to the one with Wesley. Spike, like Wesley, is the geek that went to the dark side and is stuck now forever trying to work his way back.

I agree, I don't what could really be a problem for these two. The only arguments I've seen are what about Wes/Fred/Illyria or Buffy/Spike or Fred would be a slut. But IMO they're all external reasons, I don't think the writers should shy away from doing something because some shippers might get pissy. Within the show, Fred and Spike shared some very nice scenes. If people want to them as friends or found them boring or whatever, cool, but I don't think outside reasons is really a good enough reason not to have this happen.

Personally, I loved Spike and Fred's interaction far more than I ever did Spike and Buffy's interaction or Fred and Gunns. I found Fred to bring out the best sides in Spike to be perfectly honest, and I loved how he adored and respected her in return. I also think it'd be a return to the kind of Spike I enjoyed and saw in early Spike/Dru. Not so needy and whiney about the girl, more confident and not so much loves bitch.

But didn't Lynch say we weren't getting any romance, and the comment Enisy's provided certainly leans that way as well, so I don't think we'll get it.

[KingofCretins]

I'll actually be more disappointed if it's just a sensationalist cover with no actual traction to anything between them. I don't care what 'ships will or won't "endure" from the Buffy franchise -- none of them are sacred cows. Here and now, the notion of a bizarre three-for-the-price-of-two romance between Fredlyria and Spike has more narrative and emotional resonance than anything else that either character could be involved in. Wesley's dead, and his arc doesn't seem to be more bright-side than Lilah's was. And even if Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike weren't a little played out, they are structurally unavailable as stories to tell anyway.

It's worth noting that what Ryall said doesn't actually counter the notion of Spike/Fredlyria, just the "stealing Wes' girl" comment.

[Enisy]

I also think it’d be a return to the kind of Spike I enjoyed and saw in early Spike/Dru. Not so needy and whiney about the girl, more confident and not so much loves bitch.

Joss doesn't like that Spike at all. The only reason he set him up so confident and cool in early Season 2 was because he was convinced he was going to kill him off in What's My Line. As soon as he decided to keep him around, we saw an immediate transformation to "love's bitch", with the wheelchair and the endless humiliation from Angelus and Drusilla and, finally, the drinking and pining and patheticness of Lover's Walk, which was the episode that convinced Joss he wanted Spike as a regular.

But disregarding that: you really think Spike would regain his very short-lived -- given the flashbacks in Destiny -- confidence in a relationship with Fred? She's in love with Wesley, and that's far fresher than Buffy's feelings for Angel, which Spike was angsting over in Wrecked and Chosen and Season 5 of Angel.

Personally, my thoughts about Spike/Fred can be summed up with "Bored now". Spike/Illyria would be more interesting, especially in the current setting, but I favour Fred/Wesley/Illyria (which Brian confirmed is coming up -- "a ton of it", in fact).

[vampmogs]

I'll actually be more disappointed if it's just a sensationalist cover with no actual traction to anything between them.

Same here, if it was just to grab fan's attention and nothing more, kinda gotta ask, what would be the point? It's gotta have some meaning to what happens in the issue, or you'd have to ask why on earth would the artist even do this?

I don't care what 'ships will or won't "endure" from the Buffy franchise -- none of them are sacred cows. Here and now, the notion of a bizarre three-for-the-price-of-two romance between Fredlyria and Spike has more narrative and emotional resonance than anything else that either character could be involved in. Wesley's dead, and his arc doesn't seem to be more bright-side than Lilah's was. And even if Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike weren't a little played out, they are structurally unavailable as stories to tell anyway.

I agree. It's basically saying Spike can't be with anyone if he can't be with Buffy, assuming of course she'd even get into a relationship with him anyway, and Fred can't be with anyone if Wes is dead. *Or* Wes has to die for Fred to get into another relationship. None of those options sound great to me personally.

In saying that I understand people's need for the Wes/Fred/Illyria relationship to be resolved in one way or another though, I don't suggest they drop it just like that.

Joss doesn't like that Spike at all. The only reason he set him up so confident and cool in early Season 2 was because he was convinced he was going to kill him off in What's My Line. As soon as he decided to keep him around, we saw an immediate transformation to "love's bitch", with the wheelchair and the endless humiliation from Angelus and Drusilla and, finally, the drinking and pining and patheticness of Lover's Walk, which was the episode that convinced Joss he wanted Spike as a regular.

Yeah but I think that's been done to death now, we had what? Eleven episodes of a Spike who isn't following a girl around "making moon eyes" or the other extreme when he's a complete ass to her (Harmony) in comparison to technically four seasons of bitch Spike? Given Spike's other step ups of late, in the champion department and doing what's right because he actually wants to (Shells), I think the next step is giving him a step up in the romantic department. He's evolving as a person, changing for the better, I don't see why we can't see a very different relationship for him now.

Frankly I'd find it kind of off-putting if the champion Spike was still a bitch when it came to love. I don't want his relationship to be perfect or without faults, they never are in Whedon's verse. But, that doesn't mean he has to be quite tha 'loves bitch' he was, he's gained so much more self respect now. I think it'd seriously put his character a step back if he entered yet another unreciprocated, or at least not the extent his feelings are, kind of relationship. I’d actually expect him to stand up for himself a bit more now.

But disregarding that: you really think Spike would regain his very short-lived -- given the flashbacks in Destiny -- confidence in a relationship with Fred? She's in love with Wesley, and that's far fresher than Buffy's feelings for Angel, which Spike was angsting over in Wrecked and Chosen and Season 5 of Angel.

Well it really depends on her feelings for Spike. I didn't see anything to suggest she loved him or cared about him on a romantic level, though she was aware of him on a sexual, in s5, or him likewise. But the foundations for that to progress naturally were certainly there IMO. I don't think James just imagined it, or many fans who said the same thing at the time either. I see no reason why it couldn't develop into something Spike doesn't have to be insecure about.

Personally, my thoughts about Spike/Fred can be summed up with "Bored now". Spike/Illyria would be more interesting, especially in the current setting, but I favour Fred/Wesley/Illyria (which Brian confirmed is coming up -- "a ton of it", in fact).

Different strokes I guess I found the Spike/Fred scenes to be incredibly sweet, and I respected Spike far more in his interaction with Fred than I did with some of the other women on the shows. And I found his scenes with Illyria to also be very interesting as well, more sexual I guess, and as at the present time it's a Illyria/Fred combo we're dealing with. I think you'd get the best of both worlds. The sexy and the sweet. And didn't all the slashers want some Spike on guy action anyway.. Illyria's technically a king

But I don't expect anything major to happen anyway. And at the end of the day I don't really care. I really liked Wes/Illyria/Fred and I really like the idea of Spike/Fred/Illyria.. so I'll be happy either way.

[Enisy]

Can't bring myself to care enough about the vague and foggy prospect of Spike/Frillyria to debate its pros and cons at the moment, although that might change later. Just wanted to comment on this:

The only arguments I've seen are what about Wes/Fred/Illyria or Buffy/Spike or Fred would be a slut. But IMO they're all external reasons, I don't think the writers should shy away from doing something because some shippers might get pissy.

There's a reason Angel/Darla worked for the general public and the show's writers as a follow-up to Angel/Buffy, while Riley/Buffy worked less -- and it was external. You know the one. Sometimes external influences can lead to arguably "OOC" moments, as in Chosen and The Girl in Question, but sometimes they should be heeded. I think the current demand for more of the Fred/Wesley/Illyria storyline and the "Well, who hasn't been a love interest for Fred?" protests fall under the latter category.

[vampmogs]

There's a reason Angel/Darla worked for the general public and the show's writers as a follow-up to Angel/Buffy, while Riley/Buffy worked less -- and it was external. You know the one. Sometimes external influences can lead to arguably "OOC" moments, as in Chosen and The Girl in Question, but sometimes they should be heeded. I think the current demand for focus on the Fred/Wesley/Illyria storyline falls under the latter category.

I agree that under certain circumstances external influences can work the best and can also harm what's going on, on-screen. I'd concede that Fred/Wesley/Illyria could fall into that category, like I said in my previous post I feel like it at least needs to be resolved.

But I pretty much reject the idea Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike could ever fall into that category now. They're never going to stop being loved by people, and that's cause they were two big ships, but both have been done. Unless the writers are going to bring one of the couples back for good, then they shouldn't stop any more romances happening for all the characters involved.

But I do feel like it's a little unfair for fans to reject the idea of Spike/Fred as a possibly nice ship on its own merits, because they happen to be fans of another coupling. Like I said, I understand people not liking the idea if they think it would be boring, or prefer if it stayed as a friendship, but if their only real genuine complaint is that it could prevent another relationship from happening, I personally don't think that's fair.

It hasn't even been given a chance yet.

As far as Fred and her love history. Spike's not that different.. 'Crush' had him facing off with three love interests *at once.* And now you can add Spider to that list. Heh. So I guess they've got that in common!

[Enisy]

Well, I wasn't lying when I said I'm more bothered by this on a Fred/Wesley/Illyria level than a Spike/Buffy level. The latter mainly just poses an internal problem, in that, if what we're seeing here is a Spike/Frillyria 'ship, it takes place a very short time after The Girl in Question, so it may come off as "Well, Buffy has moved on, so I should just settle for the next best thing".