Cordy + Angel??

[caughtup]

This has probably been done to death but I'm new here so.. does anyone else have a real problem with the whole Cordy/Angel thing. I think it was obscene... just plain wrong.

[KingofCretins]

You'll find a lot of opinions on both sides of that, to be sure. But I'm pretty sure the mods like to keep all such discussion to the appropriate threads on the Clubs and Ships forum

[buffyholic]

But it?s already a dead thread, so I think we can discuss it here.
What do you think?

[kana]

But it?s already a dead thread, so I think we can discuss it here.
What do you think?

I suppose we can until said thread is revived.

What I liked

That I could relate to it. A few people felt the romance was a little effected or forced but to me it's one way in which a relationship can go. It doesn't mean that inevitably close friends will end up as lovers (provided the other is the person of the preferred gender) but it can happen. Her relationship with Angel gave Cordy more depth and understanding of her purpose. Cordy brought Angel out of himself a little. She also saw the side of Angel that Buffy never really got, the everyday Angel. Not simply the principle parts of Angel of yore, most notably: Angel/Angelus, but the everyday foibles that colour the wide spectrum of his personality. Also I went through something similar with a friend, so I can relate.

What I didn't like

Boreanaz and Carpenter just don't have great chemistry. It's ok but it doesn't look as comfortable as his chemistry with Benz or Gellar. Just my personal feeling but it did affect my enjoyment watching them as possible couple.

Other thoughts

I wasn't sure about the curse. We know that Angel can have positive sex with someone but he was barely with Nina when they slept together. I wouldn't be surprised if he lied and was thinking about Buffy at the time. He seemed to feel a lot more for Cordy and in the fantasy, being with Cordy in conjunction with a good day turned him. Hypothetically, if Connor did embrace him and he did meet up with Cordy and they embraced each other, it's certainly worrying. I think Fred was right to keep checking. It's not a given but it is a risk.

Overall?

I was cool with it overall. Despite the chemistry issue, I did like the storyline and I loved You're Welcome.

[Nina]

I love both characters, I love their friendship but I never bought their romance. It felt wrong, like it were brother and sister or something like that. I don't know if I should blame my own view of them, stupid writing or the chemistry between the actors.

And I have issues with best friends who become lovers in tv-series. In real life, I like it ... but on tv it almost always feels forced. I adored Angel and Cordelia as friends more than I adored the friendship between the scoobies is season 1-4. Their friendship felt honest, equel and real, probably the most realistic relationship in the 'verse. Besides, it was nice to have a woman who wasn't in love with/didn't have a crush on Angel. In 8 years Angel on tv, there were Darla, Buffy, Drusilla, Kate, 16 years old Cordelia, Fred, Nina, the warrior from 'She', Judy, Lilah and maybe Faith and Gwen. Beat that! But of course ... also grown up Cordy had to fall in love with Angel. The only women who didn't fell in love with Angel were Willow, Jenny, Harmony and Eve. How sad is that?

Besides, the lack of the name Cordelia in Angel's conversations in season (4 &) 5 was really bad. She died and two episodes after that he is starting a relation with Nina. In season 4 after he lost Cordelia he was kissing Buffy. In season 5 he was the whole time talking and thinking about Buffy where we already saw that he was 'over' Buffy in season 3 but he never talked about Cordelia, who just died. It was just weird and it didn't really scream; Cordy & Angel 4-evah. It made me sad, and it wasn't consistant with what we saw in the first seasons.

But the romance doesn't disgust me or something like that, and I love the end of You're Welcome ...

[LaJaula]

My favorite Cordy/Angel is at the end of Season Two and the beginning of Season Three. Angel's just starting to fall for her, and she's still Cordelia. Later on in Season Three, she becomes so completely and devoted to both Angel and the PTB that she totally loses her personality. And I hate, hate, hate the fact that they were going to meet at Point Dume, because I hate that they were trying to make it some huge romantic ordeal when, really, Cordelia should've just come into the Hyperion the next morning and told him how she felt. Or she could've gone to the Hyperion right then and not a romantic meeting on the cliffs. Bleh.

But (and this is a possible UO--maybe I'll take it to that thread) I really like the Angel--> Cordy relationship in Season Four. I just feel so bad for him, and I'm so glad that the writers acknowledge the fact that, hey, Cordy/Connor is disgusting and wrong. Angel just looks so lost every time he sees her, and it's worse on rewatch when you know that if Cordy had control of herself, she'd be right by Angel's side, helping him figure out how to take down the Beast/Connor/Jasmine instead of causing it all.

And I lurve "You're Welcome" (who doesn't?) but I wish Angel would've mentioned her more often in the beginning of Season Five. "Conviction" takes place....what, nineteenish days after "Home"? And "Home" happens at most a week after "Inside Out", right? So I guess it's been about a month that he's had to adjust, but still, a little mention here or there would've been nice. Also, while Nina doesn't really bother me (I was totally on board with a Nina/Angel relationship during "Smile Time", and then after it ended, I realized, "Wait...Cordelia died two episodes ago!" But still, that's no reason to hate the poor were-girl), Buffy does. Specifically, "The Girl in Question". I kind of wank that Spike makes Angel more competitive, and that he doesn't really care about Buffy that much, he just doesn't want to let Spike win.

[Boltmaiden]

I never liked Angel and Cordy as a couple. I never understood it. Kana's post helped a little but like Nina I really liked their friendship.

If I am brutally honest the idea of them as a couple made me feel sick to my stomach and literally run away from having to see them in that capacity.

I guess I am one of those people when I find a couple I like I have a real hard time letting go or accepting a new one. Then again it may be Angel's fault more than Cordy's...I wanted her with Doyle, I liked her with Groo and wanted her to have a real, happy relationship. With Angel I hated the idea of him truly moving on from Buffy, and I know that is not fair to his character especially entertainment or character growth wise.

Maybe I thought Cordelia was the only one I could see finally breaking him away from his "one true love..." Then again when Fred first appeared I was kind of hoping she would hook up with Angel and she is one of my all time favorites in the 'verse. Have to say even though it was just to try to hide I loved their one kiss.

Uh, nevermind I am a doofus...i thought when I started typing that Ihad a really good reason but I guess it ends up being that I really just didn't like the idea. I will say that I agree with kana that David and Charisma didn't have romantic chemistry. And maybe that is why I felt so strongly against them.

I'm gonna go hide now

[buffyholic]

I never felt like the relationship was forced. I feel that at the end of season two, he already feels something for her, more than friendship. But I admit that their bond, their friendship is one thing that I love to see.
I also think that Angel moving on to Cordy, doesn?t mean that he?s already over Buffy. Buffy will always be the love of his life or unlife. But Cordy and Angel don?t have the chemistry Angel and Buffy had.

[a.a.k]

I'm a huge C/A fan. I love how they went from almost strangers to best friends and finaly lovers. And I think DB and CC had *a lot* pf chemistry, and not only for the friendship part of their relationship. I think WITW clearly showed that they do have romantic chemistry.

[sherrilina]

I love Cangel--it's by far my favorite Jossverse relationship, and maybe even TV couple period (let's see what happens with freaking Booth/Brennan though, lol!). I love their development, how they bring out the best in each other, and evolve/change for the better as a result of their time together. I love how easy and comfortable they are around each other (I don't know how one could say they aren't, unless you mean the sex scene done while she was heavily pregnant, which of course would be uncomfortable!), how they know each other better than anyone else, how she inspires him/keeps him on the right track, how much they care about each other, and are willing to do anything for each other.....I don't think it's wrong at all, but completely right. I also think they have plenty of chemistry, even if its more subdued than between DB and others, but that's my personal opinion I suppose....but yeah, as aak said, I think WITW was pretty hot and chemistry filled!

I guess I am one of those people when I find a couple I like I have a real hard time letting go or accepting a new one. Then again it may be Angel's fault more than Cordy's...I wanted her with Doyle, I liked her with Groo and wanted her to have a real, happy relationship. With Angel I hated the idea of him truly moving on from Buffy, and I know that is not fair to his character especially entertainment or character growth wise.

How is it not fair to him entertainment or character growth wise to ever move on from Buffy?! In fact the opposite is true--it would be quite unfair if he had to sit there pining for Buffy forever, never growing or maturing beyond that, but stuck on that one relationship! Plus I think it'd hardley be entertaining if the protagonist of a show never got a love interest in all five seasons, except one on an entirely different show that you only see him with in one episode in the first season!

Maybe I thought Cordelia was the only one I could see finally breaking him away from his "one true love..." Then again when Fred first appeared I was kind of hoping she would hook up with Angel and she is one of my all time favorites in the 'verse. Have to say even though it was just to try to hide I loved their one kiss.

Hm, do I detect a double standard here? So first you say you hate the idea of Angel ever moving on from Buffy, that it'd (somehow) be "unfair" to his character growth to move on, but now you're saying it'd be okay if he moved on with Fred? You have to either think its okay for him to move on or not, pick one....

I love both characters, I love their friendship but I never bought their romance. It felt wrong, like it were brother and sister or something like that. I don't know if I should blame my own view of them, stupid writing or the chemistry between the actors.

I've never understood this "they're too much like brother and sister!" idea--they seemed more like just really good friends to me, who were naturally growing closer and whose feelings were becoming romantic--this process begins in season 2, it doesn't happen overnight! One thing I love about Cangel is its gradual development.....which I prefer to Bangel's BAM! we're in love after 6 episodes!

Besides, the lack of the name Cordelia in Angel's conversations in season (4 &) 5 was really bad. She died and two episodes after that he is starting a relation with Nina. In season 4 after he lost Cordelia he was kissing Buffy. In season 5 he was the whole time talking and thinking about Buffy where we already saw that he was 'over' Buffy in season 3 but he never talked about Cordelia, who just died. It was just weird and it didn't really scream; Cordy & Angel 4-evah. It made me sad, and it wasn't consistant with what we saw in the first seasons

Well I don't know where you get the idea that there was a "lack of the name Cordelia in Angel's conversations in season 4"--she was constantly on his mind and lips then, right through the season finale. The kiss (which could have very well been a "hello" kind of kiss, as Buffy says--they certainly were back to busniess pretty shortly afterwards) is not on ATS, but on BTVS in Chosen, an episode in which Angel was acting pretty OOC anyway throughout. And it's not like he cared all that much for Nina, as we see--she seemed to be a different way to deal....

And honestly, it's weird that all the others--not just Angel--talked about Cordy so little, so that's a larger problem (perhaps part of Joss's "I'm pissed off at Charisma Carpenter!!" schtick after season 4 that led to his firing her?) with the season....though according to Angel Cordy is constantly in his thoughts, even if he doesn't speak about it (he says he thinks about what they could have had every day in YW, and his saying softly to Spike that "he lost Cordy" in AHITW indicates this as well)....

And he does not spend the "whole time talking and thinking about Buffy"--the only time he thinks of her is a) when he hears she's in trouble in one episode (it's understandable he'd want to help in any case given their part relationship, even if he was over her!), and b) when he's fighting with Spike--and in those cases it's more about dominance and who comes out on top rather than about Buffy herself--it's more about Spike and Angel.

[vampmogs]

How is it not fair to him entertainment or character growth wise to ever move on from Buffy?! In fact the opposite is true--it would be quite unfair if he had to sit there pining for Buffy forever, never growing or maturing beyond that, but stuck on that one relationship! Plus I think it'd hardley be entertaining if the protagonist of a show never got a love interest in all five seasons, except one on an entirely different show that you only see him with in one episode in the first season!

I think Boltmaiden meant that he knew it wasn't fair to expect Angel never to move on from Buffy, only that it felt odd when he did

I've never understood this "they're too much like brother and sister!" idea--they seemed more like just really good friends to me, who were naturally growing closer and whose feelings were becoming romantic--this process begins in season 2, it doesn't happen overnight! One thing I love about Cangel is its gradual development.....which I prefer to Bangel's BAM! we're in love after 6 episodes!

I don't think it was very gradual at all. The moment Fred mentions it suddenly Cangel is on, it happens with a drop of the hat. I personally didn't feel it felt gradual at all from what we've seen before, it seemed completely out of the blue. Same with Cordelia's sudden major personality transplant from when she comes home from her holiday, which coincidentally needs to happen at the same time as the big Cangel lead up for the season finale.

And he does not spend the "whole time talking and thinking about Buffy"--the only time he thinks of her is a) when he hears she's in trouble in one episode (it's understandable he'd want to help in any case given their part relationship, even if he was over her!), and b) when he's fighting with Spike--and in those cases it's more about dominance and who comes out on top rather than about Buffy herself--it's more about Spike and Angel.

Season 5 was heavily Buffy centric, IMO too Btvs centric in general. From Angel dreaming of Buffy in his hallucinations, fighting constantly about her with Spike, having someone watch her throughout the season.. it was all about Buffy. They did pretty much drop the Cangel storyline that season.

[Nina]

I've never understood this "they're too much like brother and sister!" idea--they seemed more like just really good friends to me, who were naturally growing closer and whose feelings were becoming romantic--this process begins in season 2, it doesn't happen overnight! One thing I love about Cangel is its gradual development.....which I prefer to Bangel's BAM! we're in love after 6 episodes!

I never had trouble with the instant love thing with Bangel, they made the Bangel relationship something big, and the instant love thing fits with that, also the ability to sense eachother is an unrealistic but beautiful touch. At least, that is my opinion, some don't like it ... I love it.

The brother and sister vibe is something that I have, I've the same vibe with Buffy and Xander.

I agree with Vampmogs about the fact that the Cangel relation wasn't gradual at all, they were great friends until Angel decided in one episode that he was in love with Cordy ... and then the writers made Cordelia some saint with blonde hair to be the perfect fit. But the Cordelia & Angel relationship is not the mythic relationship ... but the adult relationship that grows slowly ... and that didn't happen IMO.

Well I don't know where you get the idea that there was a "lack of the name Cordelia in Angel's conversations in season 4"--she was constantly on his mind and lips then, right through the season finale. The kiss (which could have very well been a "hello" kind of kiss, as Buffy says--they certainly were back to busniess pretty shortly afterwards) is not on ATS, but on BTVS in Chosen, an episode in which Angel was acting pretty OOC anyway throughout.

OOC or not, it is canon, and it did bother me.

And it's not like he cared all that much for Nina, as we see--she seemed to be a different way to deal....

I know, but that doesn't change the fact that he was dating her pretty quick after Cordelia died. It just felt too soon.

And honestly, it's weird that all the others--not just Angel--talked about Cordy so little, so that's a larger problem (perhaps part of Joss's "I'm pissed off at Charisma Carpenter!!" schtick after season 4 that led to his firing her?) with the season....though according to Angel Cordy is constantly in his thoughts, even if he doesn't speak about it (he says he thinks about what they could have had every day in YW, and his saying softly to Spike that "he lost Cordy" in AHITW indicates this as well)....

I know, I've big issues with the relations between the characters in season 5. And one mention of Cordelia wasn't enough for me ... Cordelia was his best friend and lover ... and they give her one mention, but they fill episodes with Buffy-Spike-Angel. Gah!

And he does not spend the "whole time talking and thinking about Buffy"--the only time he thinks of her is a) when he hears she's in trouble in one episode (it's understandable he'd want to help in any case given their part relationship, even if he was over her!), and b) when he's fighting with Spike--and in those cases it's more about dominance and who comes out on top rather than about Buffy herself--it's more about Spike and Angel.

I've to agree with Vampmogs again, there was an overdosis Buffy and BtVS in season 5. We saw Angel crying because Buffy moved on ... how sad is that? (Can somebody remove TGIQ out of my head?)

[Boltmaiden]

How is it not fair to him entertainment or character growth wise to ever move on from Buffy?! In fact the opposite is true--it would be quite unfair if he had to sit there pining for Buffy forever, never growing or maturing beyond that, but stuck on that one relationship! Plus I think it'd hardley be entertaining if the protagonist of a show never got a love interest in all five seasons, except one on an entirely different show that you only see him with in one episode in the first season!


Hm, do I detect a double standard here? So first you say you hate the idea of Angel ever moving on from Buffy, that it'd (somehow) be "unfair" to his character growth to move on, but now you're saying it'd be okay if he moved on with Fred? You have to either think its okay for him to move on or not, pick one....

You completely misunderstood me. That is what I was saying about myself, I said that is wasn't fair for me to want him pinning for Buffy because their is no way for his character to have growth with that being the case...and that when I really thought about it, it really was that I didn't like him with Cordelia romantically. I even called myself a doofus for not being able to come up with a good argument. However one thing I will defend mysefl on is that fact that I din't think they had chemistry romantically, that is subjective and no argument you give will change my mind on that.

Vampmogs: Thanks for trying to help clear it up

[LaJaula]

I agree with Vampmogs about the fact that the Cangel relation wasn't gradual at all, they were great friends until Angel decided in one episode that he was in love with Cordy ... and then the writers made Cordelia some saint with blonde hair to be the perfect fit. But the Cordelia & Angel relationship is not the mythic relationship ... but the adult relationship that grows slowly ... and that didn't happen IMO.

I don't see Cangel as totally out of the blue. IMO, they were building up to it from "Epiphany" on Angel's side. After he rejoins the MoG, Cordelia is always his number-one concern. He wants her to forgive him, he's crushed when she says they're not friends anymore, and then of course there's his expression during the clothes dance. I dare anyone to find a time when Angel has a happier expression on his face. Can't be done! And then he's so anxious to get her back from Pylea-- I really can't see him being that concerned if it had been Wesley or Gunn that had gotten lost. Or even Fred, had she been a member of the team at that time. If it had been anyone else, I think Angel would've been more logical about it, but he angrily charges in, trying to rescue her. Then there's the whole Groo/"I love you" scene, all of which IMO show that he has feelings for her, and this is even before Season Three starts.

So Lorne and Fred talking about kyrumption never really bothered me, since I could see it from Angel's side before. What I will say is out of the blue is Cordelia's reaction. While for the last year and a half or so Angel had been acting as more-than-friends, Cordy really hadn't. There was no subtext there to suggest that she saw him as anything other than her best friend until she came back from vacation, and by then she wasn't even acting like Cordelia at all. And even then, her declaration of love in "Tomorrow" felt rushed compared to what had come in the episodes before it! So yeah, from her side, I see it as sudden. But not for Angel.

[kana]

It's not sudden for Angel at all, I agree. Let us not forget that it took 3/4 months for Angel to actually be about to act after Fred pointed out their romantic connection. It can happen that other pick up on a vibe more quickly than the couple in question actually do (I've seen it happen in other shows and in real life) so if you call virtually a year of two people finally realising their feelings after others picked up on it, BANG then well I suppose we all have different definition of out of the blue.

Even Cordelia being out of touch with her feelings is believable because it sort of happened with Doyle.

I get the feeling Cordy wouldn't have dated Angel as he is a vampire with a curse but she was changing, and changing more than she realised. Her change is tied to Angel. In Angel's worst time it becomes obvious to everyone else that Angel is her priority. Again it takes her at least a month or two and Groo (hey that rhymes) to see that. Again her feelings were there but she wasn't in touch with them, again I've seen that before. So when you think about it, it wasn't that sudden at all. Certainly no more than standing outside the school gates and falling in love with a strange 15 year old girl instantly. As erm, sweet as that was, I cannot relate to that nor do I know (personally) anyone who can.

[LaJaula]

I was thinking about the severity of Angel's reaction to Cordy's trip to Pylea, and as I stated before, I really think that his reactions is more than that of "just friends". If you compare Angel's reactions in "Over the Rainbow" with his in "Shells", along with Wesley's in those two episodes, there's an interesting comparison.

WESLEY: Okay, let's approach this logically.
ANGEL: Screw logic. We're getting Cordy back. We're gonna open up another portal and we're going in after her.
WESLEY: Angel, I don't think that's a good idea.
ANGEL: Wesley, I don't think I care.

Angel is all prepared to rush in and get Cordelia back, no matter what the consequences. Then look at "Shells":

ANGEL: At the well in England, there was a way to save Fred, but only if thousands of others died in her place. As much as I love Fred, I couldn't let that happen. Look, I need you to bury it, Wes. Everything you're feeling, everyone you wanna hurt. I need you to put it aside and focus on what has to be done.

Angel's the one who's cool and logical here. Wesley's running around stabbing people in the gut, shooting people, and breaking down, and Angel's telling him to be logical. When it's the woman that they love, each of their actions is less logical, and based solely on getting their loved one back. When it's their friend, they're each able to step back and approach the situation rationally. I think that the Wes-Fred-Angel relationships in "Shells" are similar to the Angel-Cordelia-Wesley ones in "Over the Rainbow".

Of course, Wesley's actions are much more extreme than Angel's, but I think that Wesley's feelings for Fred were much more extreme than Angel's were for Cordelia.

[sherrilina]

I think Boltmaiden meant that he knew it wasn't fair to expect Angel never to move on from Buffy, only that it felt odd when he did

Okay then!

I don't think it was very gradual at all. The moment Fred mentions it suddenly Cangel is on, it happens with a drop of the hat. I personally didn't feel it felt gradual at all from what we've seen before, it seemed completely out of the blue. Same with Cordelia's sudden major personality transplant from when she comes home from her holiday, which coincidentally needs to happen at the same time as the big Cangel lead up for the season finale.

II agree with Vampmogs about the fact that the Cangel relation wasn't gradual at all, they were great friends until Angel decided in one episode that he was in love with Cordy ... and then the writers made Cordelia some saint with blonde hair to be the perfect fit. But the Cordelia & Angel relationship is not the mythic relationship ... but the adult relationship that grows slowly ... and that didn't happen IMO.

But as LaJaula said, there was build-up BEFORE Fred's little speech--check out the whole episode in the beginning (the 2nd epp of the season!) about Cordy's increasing trouble with her visions and how desperate Angel is to help her, even going against his morals and helping WH break a demon out of a jail cell of the PTB to help Cordy, and then committing murder in cold blood. We have a whole scene in which Angel makes it VERY clear how much Cordy means to him, that it's HER that matters and not the visions. This can be seen as friendship perhaps, but it can also be seen as something more developing--it's similar to how Booth would act if Brennan was in trouble/suffering for example (he in one episode threatens to murder a gang-member who put a hit out on Brennan if anything happens to her--very similar to his words to Lilah). Seriously, if that was Buffy in Cordy's place, everyone would think it's totally romantic, no question! It is, as LaJaula says so eloquently, yet another indication of Angel's growing feelings for her--which go back to the end of season 2, after his "epiphany"--as Wes angrily points out with his "while you're at it why don't you pick me up a 'Sorry you were shot in the GUT' bouquet!" line, Angel does seem to be much more concerned about Cordy than the others (you'll notice that she was the first place he checked when he was trying to save all of the FG members) than about the other members--which doesn't really make sense if he considers her as just a good friend along with Wes and Gunn! And then there's his crazed desperation to get her back when she disappears to Pylea, even when Wes warns him that if they just jump in after her they could be torn apart or never come back! And there's his reaction to her incapacitation in Birthday as well--he doesn't even care/notice that Lorne's horn is torn off, he only cares about Cordy....it's very clear, and has been for a while, that he loves her, even before Fred points it out to him--and as kana says, it does take him a while to ACT on it, even so.....WITW is a while after Offspring!

Cordy's love for Angel is also much more gradual than you guys are giving credit for--throughout the seasons she has shown deep concern for Angel, and she of all the FG members is the most hurt by Angel's abandonment, the most hostile towards Darla, except when she learns that Angel slept with Darla--at which time she takes out her anger on Angel by being extra nice to Darla. Seriously, why would Cordy be so especially furious with Angel at learning that he had slept with Darla if she had purely sisterly feelings for him? Especially when at this point it's clear his soul wasn't affected by it, and he had been doing tons of crap during that period anyway? Hell, she showed jealousy about Angel back in season 1--as Doyle points out, she is clearly jealous of Buffy, and her especially hostile attitude towards Rebecca (she was a bit over the top with her enormous cross and such--and if it was just concern about him sleeping with her and losing his soul, why wouldn't Wesley be as worried about it as her?) can be jealousy as well.

Then there's season 3--and I really don't know where you guys get this "personality transplant" idea from. Didn't you guys see "Birthday" (BEFORE her vacation!) when she gives up her very humanity and the chance to ever have a normal life again (to hell, be a MOVIE star! Her former dream!) for ANGEL alone! (Because there wasn't anything wrong with that AU except that Angel was suffering and in pain--she makes it clear that it is for HIM that she becomes a demon here and later when she explicitly says so). THAT's selfless love if I ever saw it! And this is not the first time we've seen it from her--if you go back and watch "That Vision Thing," you'll notice that her main stated reason for wanting to keep the visions is not just to help people in general, but to help ANGEL--she says that she doesn't want to lose them because then she couldn't help Angel. So her being self-sacrificing and caring deeply about Angel goes all the way back to the first episodes of the season--looong before she ever goes on vacation with Groo! She made it clear that Angel was her priority long before she said it aloud. Yes, she was momentarily distracted by Groo, but that's TV for you--it's a common enough device, again, turn to "Bones," where in season 2 Brennan has a relationship with a similarly Gary-Stuish character for a brief time, though ultimately her heart isn't in the relationship either, and (as Angela says), she doesn't leave with him to go live in the Caribbean at least in part because of Booth--who is clearly the man she loves, even if for a brief time she was all about Sully, talking about having sex with him JUST like Cordy does in front of Angel in "Couplet"--once again, the girl is really in love with the main guy the whole time, though she is momentarily distracted by a new random guy who she thinks she likes a lot, but ultimately realizes it's not as much as she likes her real love interest.....plus B/B is the perfect example of a TV couple who clearly love each other, but they're the last ones to see it! Fred and Lorne were merely trying to point out the obvious to them, something that is already evident earlier....

So in short, it WAS a gradual relationship--the signs were there early on, even if maybe not everyone picked up on or saw them....

Season 5 was heavily Buffy centric, IMO too Btvs centric in general. From Angel dreaming of Buffy in his hallucinations, fighting constantly about her with Spike, having someone watch her throughout the season.. it was all about Buffy. They did pretty much drop the Cangel storyline that season.

Yes, season 5 was pretty much Buffy:LA Unit given that Spike was on the show and Buffy was over--but that's a larger problem with the season, and as I said his dealings about Buffy are largely part of his piss-fight with Spike, not out of necessarily "eternal love" for her--he mentions her because the whole season was BTVS-centric....

I was thinking about the severity of Angel's reaction to Cordy's trip to Pylea, and as I started before, I really think that his reactions is more than that of "just friends". If you compare Angel's reactions in "Over the Rainbow" with his in "Shells", along with Wesley's in those two episodes, there's an interesting comparison.

WESLEY: Okay, let's approach this logically.
ANGEL: Screw logic. We're getting Cordy back. We're gonna open up another portal and we're going in after her.
WESLEY: Angel, I don't think that's a good idea.
ANGEL: Wesley, I don't think I care.

Angel is all prepared to rush in and get Cordelia back, no matter what the consequences. Then look at "Shells":

ANGEL: At the well in England, there was a way to save Fred, but only if thousands of others died in her place. As much as I love Fred, I couldn't let that happen. Look, I need you to bury it, Wes. Everything you're feeling, everyone you wanna hurt. I need you to put it aside and focus on what has to be done.

Angel's the one who's cool and logical here. Wesley's running around stabbing people in the gut, shooting people, and breaking down, and Angel's telling him to be logical. When it's the woman that they love, each of their actions is less logical, and based solely on getting their loved one back. When it's their friend, they're each able to step back and approach the situation rationally. I think that the Wes-Fred-Angel relationships in "Shells" are similar to the Angel-Cordelia-Wesley ones in "Over the Rainbow".

Of course, Wesley's actions are much more extreme than Angel's, but I think that Wesley's feelings for Fred were much more extreme than Angel's were for Cordelia.

EXACTLY! Spot on! Angel's reactions to Cordy being in trouble are a lot more desperate and illogical than to others being in trouble--suggesting that his feelings for her are more than friendly....

[vampmogs]

But as LaJaula said, there was build-up BEFORE Fred's little speech--check out the whole episode in the beginning (the 2nd epp of the season!) about Cordy's increasing trouble with her visions and how desperate Angel is to help her, even going against his morals and helping WH break a demon out of a jail cell of the PTB to help Cordy, and then committing murder in cold blood. We have a whole scene in which Angel makes it VERY clear how much Cordy means to him, that it's HER that matters and not the visions. This can be seen as friendship perhaps, but it can also be seen as something more developing--it's similar to how Booth would act if Brennan was in trouble/suffering for example (he in one episode threatens to murder a gang-member who put a hit out on Brennan if anything happens to her--very similar to his words to Lilah). Seriously, if that was Buffy in Cordy's place, everyone would think it's totally romantic, no question!

But as you said, it could also be taken in the friendship way. With Buffy, "they'll never just be friends, they'll be in love to it kills them both" so it'd make sense for us to see it automatically as being romantic. But when Angel's actions easily fit the mould as being concerned for someone who he cares a lot about as a very close friend, the same way it was shown he cared a lot about Cordelia in 'To Shanshu in LA,' it can seem completely out of the blue when they try and put a romantic spin on it out of nowhere when Fred mentions it. Especially when we've been shown how much they care for each other in the past as friends, and at the time made comments how they'd never view each other in that way, Angel's "god no" springs to mind. At the time he said that, I never doubted he cared deeply for her as a friend, as his dearest friend, but it seemed completely out there when after Fred even mentions the idea of them being a couple, everything's immediately shifted to view them in that way.

It is, as LaJaula says so eloquently, yet another indication of Angel's growing feelings for her--which go back to the end of season 2, after his "epiphany"--as Wes angrily points out with his "while you're at it why don't you pick me up a 'Sorry you were shot in the GUT' bouquet!" line, Angel does seem to be much more concerned about Cordy than the others (you'll notice that she was the first place he checked when he was trying to save all of the FG members) than about the other members--which doesn't really make sense if he considers her as just a good friend along with Wes and Gunn!

I think it does. Angel's always been closer to Cordelia as a friend than Wes or Gunn. Cordelia's always treat him the nicest out of the three of them as well. Gunn has issues with him being a vampire, and whilst Angel and Wes were good friends, it was Cordelia who had been there with him with Doyle and from the start. He says in s4 that she's his "dearest friend" and I believe that, I have from half way through s1 after Doyle passed. Naturally I just assumed Cordelia took over Doyle's role as Angel's closest pal, and given we hadn't really seen anything to show otherwise, I don't think one can be blamed for finding it odd when they try and put a romantic spin on a very platonic relationship.

Seriously, why would Cordy be so especially furious with Angel at learning that he had slept with Darla if she had purely sisterly feelings for him?

I never viewed them as brotherly or sisterly. I'll make that clear. They were aware of eachother sexually, as was Xander and Buffy. I never buy into the idea of them being "brother and sister" just platonic. And her reaction can easily be summed up to the fact he didn't confess he'd slept with Darla when he mentioned it in 'Disharmony,' that he slept with an evil vampire, that he was prepared to risk his soul ect.

Especially when at this point it's clear his soul wasn't affected by it, and he had been doing tons of crap during that period anyway? Hell, she showed jealousy about Angel back in season 1--as Doyle points out, she is clearly jealous of Buffy, and her especially hostile attitude towards Rebecca (she was a bit over the top with her enormous cross and such--and if it was just concern about him sleeping with her and losing his soul, why wouldn't Wesley be as worried about it as her?) can be jealousy as well.

Cordelia's always been jealous of Buffy though. Has very little to do with Angel. She was jealous of Buffy because she was her biggest rival, the girl once was 'Spordelia.' The girl whom Cordelia once said made Xander and Willow cooler by hanging out with them, who IMO caused her so much trouble and turned her world upside. She was jealous of Buffy when Xander wouldn't stop going on about her.

Then there's season 3--and I really don't know where you guys get this "personality transplant" idea from.

Cordelia turned into a downright saint after her return from her holiday. I don't think anyone is denying she'd done some major growing before the holiday, she most certainly had. But she maintained her snappiness, her zest, there was a nice believable balance. All it was, was saint Cordelia when she came back, everything about her was different. She didn't even look the same, her fashion, her hair, her entire personality was pretty different from when she'd left earlier.

So in short, it WAS a gradual relationship--the signs were there early on, even if maybe not everyone picked up on or saw them....

The problem with Cangel is that these signs can easily be interpreted as friendship, so many people did interpret them this way, which is why it's viewed as forced by many people.

I don't deny they ended up in love, there's enough *textual* evidence to support it, there is confirmation on both sides. I just think it was forced, didn't feel the chemistry, didn't believe they could romantically like each other, especially Angel towards Cordelia. I was told they did, I saw that they did but it never felt right to be. I did wish they'd never done it, and in the end the conclusion was just a horrible mess, it was pretty much dropped.

Yes, season 5 was pretty much Buffy:LA Unit given that Spike was on the show and Buffy was over--but that's a larger problem with the season, and as I said his dealings about Buffy are largely part of his piss-fight with Spike, not out of necessarily "eternal love" for her--he mentions her because the whole season was BTVS-centric....

I agree to an extent that Spike brought up a lot of it, but I still think he clearly showed he was in love with Buffy. Spike didn't make Angel have someone watching her because "she's Buffy." Nor did Spike make Angel go to Sunnydale and then talk about them maybe being an item in the future. One can say it was OOC, but it happened, it's canon it was on screen, the same way those who don't like Cangel can't deny it was their on screen, it happened, it was part of their character growth and the series and there's no point ignoring it.

My biggest problem is like another member has mentioned, I just had a hard time seeing Angel moving on from Buffy. When the show put so much effort into making it clear how much he loved her, it's pretty hard to see him moving on from that or finding it believeable he would. And I know many Spuffies who've said the same thing about Spike. Her character was such a huge part in their lives, it was her character that got Angel off his ass and helped him become the person it was, and being with her made him perfectly happy. For Spike, it was her who led him on his path to redemption. When both were so heavily invested in her, it's really hard to picture either truly being invested in another relationship.

I think that's why Angel/Darla worked for me. And I actually think there's a quote out there from Tim Minear stating the same thing. They knew they couldn't top Buffy/Angel so they went to something that happened before that relationship, which was Angel and Darla's history.

[buffyholic]

In season 2 we can see hints that maybe his feelings for Cordy are more than just friendly. I think their relationship was ruined by the fact that they decided to make Cordy part-demon, which pretty much ruined her a little for me.
Angel is always reminding himself of Cordy in season 5. Reminding himself of what he has already lost, so I disagree with people that say Cordy is completely forgotten by him.

[Nina]

I can't really understand that? Why is their friendship ruined because she is part-demon? She didn't change ... the only thing that changed was the pain in her head.