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  • Do we suspect that there may be some kind of connection between ...

    I thought that it would be better that this topic gets a new thread, so here it is ... a brand new thread.

    Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
    no, gods and pure demons are separate beings in the jossverse.

    though illyria refers to ITself as a "god-king"--powerful as one, perhaps, but a pure demon all the same. it's well-established by drogyn and wesley that illyria is a pure demon--one of the "old ones". it's also established that the wolf, ram and hart are also pure demons, but were less than illyria in its heyday. the senior partners are also not the wolf, ram and hart--being that one is dead and one is named "mr. suvarta".

    glorificus, the other two hell gods, and probably jasmine and the ptbs were the gods we saw/heard about.
    Are this facts or assumptions? Because if this are facts, I have to rewatch some episodes. Because I can't remember this.

    I don't understand why the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart or Illyria aren't gods but the PTB and Glory are. They are all called gods and/or treated like gods, and I can't remember that there was ever a clear explanation of the therms 'Pure Demon' and 'God'. We know that Illyria and the Wolf, Ram and Hart are pure demons, but maybe Glory is also a pure demon, just like the PTB... we just never knew what they were.

    We know that the Wolf, Ram and Hart are in more than one dimension, and have lots of power. They were the leaders in Pylea for a long time, and it's made clear that they have power in other dimensions as well. They have servants, priests, slaves, demon armies, worshippers etc ... why aren't they gods? Because we found out that they were demons? "God" is just a therm for a very powerful demon with lots of worshippers, servants etc IMO. Why is Illyria a pure demon and Glory not, they are both called 'God', but we know that Illyria is a pure demon and we don't know what Glory is.

    And I still think that the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart are the Senior Partners. They can have more than one name (see: Jasmine who had more names), and I have to see season 2 again, but wasn't the point in that season, that Angel can't kill the SP? That whatever he did with the glove was useless? He couldn't kill the SP, he just killed the demon who was used by one of the SP to make contact with the office.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    I don't understand why the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart or Illyria aren't gods but the PTB and Glory are.
    Glory was the only one who was explicitly called a god. What exactly this means we can only speculate.

    They are all called gods and/or treated like gods, and I can't remember that there was ever a clear explanation of the therms 'Pure Demon' and 'God'.
    Was there a clear explanation of the term 'god'? I don't think so but pure demons, yes, well more or less. The pure demons were the original demons that existed before they were tainted by humanity. Illyria was one such demon.

    We know that Illyria and the Wolf, Ram and Hart are pure demons,
    We know that Illyria is but we don't know that the Wolf, Ram and Hart were. It was only implied that they may be demons that were barely stronger than vampires (according to Illyria) and while they were around when Illyria, it's possible, like humans, their race was in it's infancy.



    but maybe Glory is also a pure demon, just like the PTB... we just never knew what they were.
    Tara thought that she might even be older than an old one, which would explain why she even predates human language(although that could apply to Illyria). Apparently there is some metaphysical difference. Illyria is referenced as a demon and Glory as a god.

    We know that the Wolf, Ram and Hart are in more than one dimension, and have lots of power. They were the leaders in Pylea for a long time, and it's made clear that they have power in other dimensions as well. They have servants, priests, slaves, demon armies, worshippers etc ... why aren't they gods?
    Perhaps they were worshipped as Gods but they are not referenced as Gods. Illyria was indeed worshipped but was referenced as a demon. The PTBs were only obliquely referenced as gods by Jasmine herself. I suppose if such a thing is classifiable then it's safe to assume that if anyone would know it would be her. She could have been lying but there was no reason to lie so specifically about that. Doyle managed to get Angel to respect the PTBs without directly referring to them as Gods, so it's relatively safe to assume that if such a thing can be classified than the PTBs can the deemed a some form of deity (perhaps there are different kinds).

    Because we found out that they were demons? "God" is just a therm for a very powerful demon with lots of worshippers, servants etc IMO.
    Although it isn't explicitly said I'd speculate there could also be some metaphysical difference. Travers seemed clear in his distinction. He could of course be wrong but I'm sure we can be sure that a god can be classed as a god as much as a demon can be classed as a demon. What we lack however the metaphyisical, qualities that specifically consitute these kinds of beings.

    Why is Illyria a pure demon and Glory not, they are both called 'God', but we know that Illyria is a pure demon and we don't know what Glory is.
    I'm not sure but I think they refer to her power as godlike (as well as her ego) but she is referenced as a demon. If Travers was so adamant about the difference it's more than likely that there is a metaphysical difference. Illyria could be using hyperbole, to make herself sound more grand or maybe she's referencing how she is worhipped rather than what she actually is.



    And I still think that the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart are the Senior Partners.
    I think so too. Mr Suvata was just one of them.

    They can have more than one name (see: Jasmine who had more names), and I have to see season 2 again, but wasn't the point in that season, that Angel can't kill the SP?
    We don't know if they can be killed in the dimension they reside in now or even if they can be accessed. Angel did kill one of them but as Lorne said, that is one of the side effects of taking on the form of a killable demon in this dimension. Presumably the SPs in their native form are more powerful.

    That whatever he did with the glove was useless?
    It wasn't useless, he managed to kill that one. The ring was disenchanted so Angel couldn't get back to where the SP came from. I suspect that Holland's trip was part mindf*** and part demonstration. Angel couldn't get back to the hell the SPs come from but he was brought to a very real hell that exists here.

    He couldn't kill the SP, he just killed the demon who was used by one of the SP to make contact with the office.
    Well it was an SP manifested as a Kleynach and Angel killed it.

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