Angel After the Fall Chapter Five spoiler discussion

[Dorian's Kitten]

So Brian Lynch offers a little clarification about the issue five covers in his latest myspace blog. The Cautionary Tale of Issue Cinco
There are a couple of interesting tidbits here. Nothing real spoilery, but since issue five will be out soon I figured I'd just start a thread for it.

[LaJaula]

Ooh, that got me excited. Lots of questions answered, but still a cliffhanger that we'll have to wait for three months for an answer to? I wonder who the person is on the cover that's so spoilery. If it's Cordelia (which I'm hoping against hope for, but find it doubtful), then I could see her return as being the huge cliffhanger at the end of #5. But then again, if she's the same as the mystery woman on the FN cover, it doesn't seem likely that they'd release her image on the FN cover, but not Issue 5. So most likely, it's someone else. Lindsey?

[KingofCretins]

Someone on the Dark Horse boards called it, they posted a screen shot of a clean-cut Mark Lutz looking much like Franco's Groo pic.

This was me Mwuhahahahaha!!!!

I can groove on Groonan the Barbarian. I actually really thought Groo was coolest when he was "assimilated" -- to me, the iconic image of Groo is him standing, stockstill, waiting for something to pop out of the tear into Quor'toth in Season 3. But, something Brian doesn't mention but I think is also relevant is that, no matter how good comic art is, not everyone can always tell characters apart that look alike. And it doesn't even have to be in comics -- they made Emma change her hair in Season 6 because she looked too much like Sarah.

It may not have been a reason to keep him as Groonan, but it's a benefit -- the casual or new reader won't have to be like "okay, is that Angel, or Groo?" It's the same reason that, from the very first full page splash of Season 8, we've got the Slayer With Huge Read Hair, the Slayer With The Rude Girl Button, etc.

[ThePoet's<3]

WOA! Lots of scary spoiler pimping! I hate when they do that!

I wonder if the Spike: AtF is to incorporate/canonize Lynch's Spike comics - Asylum and Shadow Puppets? Hmm...

Nice to know who the "well-dressed" guy is but still can't say I'm glad to see him back.

Also, all these little "cover bloopers" add up to $$ for comic collectors. It's like minting "two-headed" coins if they fix them in future covers.

[Vampire in Rug]

Also, all these little "cover bloopers" add up to $$ for comic collectors. It's like minting "two-headed" coins if they fix them in future covers.

It's not rare for comic covers to have very little to do with what's in the actual story. Think of Xander and Willow doing that giant jigsaw of Buffy. I doubt they'd go to the trouble of re-drawing Groo in future printings so that he has long hair. It's a cool idea though.

[vampmogs]

It's not rare for comic covers to have very little to do with what's in the actual story. Think of Xander and Willow doing that giant jigsaw of Buffy.

In many ways it did. It was a metaphorical image of them piecing Buffy back together. Which as it were, they were both working on getting her out of Amy's true love spell. But yeah, the covers aren't always literal. As this one wasn't, nor ?The Chain' when the decoy is ripping Buffy's mask off, or Issue #5's cover which Lynch has already confirmed, won't have the group shot.

[ally]

Ok call me stupid, but is there a preview of S5 or the cover out yet? All I can find is that weird cover with Gunn and that fish and it looks like someone knocked it up on Photoshop.

But I did love Brians rant about Groo with Angel hair vs old school warrier Groo. Awesome.

[Jaseon]

I think any kind of Groo sucks personally.

Just didn't really sit well with the character, he stole Cordy from Angel and he was just... really annoying.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I love Groo. He is a big slice of awesome. Groooo! Though without Cordy, I'm not quite sure what I'll make of him. He works in my mind as part of a dynamic with her. But perhaps he'll feel quite at home in a world of big demons he can just slay? Though I think his fish out of water style was more interesting.

[Vampire in Rug]

I can understand why people don't like Groo. He does feel a bit like a Mary Sue. Or Gary Stu. Or Gary Groo.

I mean, he's on par with Angel when it comes to strength and fighting skills, he's polite and considerate, he's funny but he can also go out into the sun, experience perfect happiness and has no dark history. Basicly he's got all the pro's Angel has, and none of the con's.

I think that's great because he makes Angel feel threatened and insecure, but at the same time Angel can't hate the guy because he really does mean well.

I can understand why others hate Groo, but I think he's awesome. And he's really funny. I think the comedy value alone justifies his place in the story.

[NileQT87]

the dichotomy between angel and groo was that groo is angel without any of his flaws (a mary sue)--and yet, he's more flawed than angel, because unlike angel, he's not a complete character by definition. he's missing everything that makes angel so amazing, even though he has everything that angel has by definition and some things angel doesn't.

however, it's hard, by definition, to stomach such a character. yeah, never liked groo outside of the hypothetical basis of why he was there.

[KingofCretins]

Well, new issue is out, and it was riveting. A bit hard to follow in places, but the second read-through cleared up a lot of that.

I love how continually awesome all things related to Connor, Gwen, and Nina are. And Lorne. Everybody was awesome in this issue.

Angel and Spike had a near moment of actually like each other, which I'm sure will also be turned into the slashiest slash that ever slashed.

Groo was funny, just great stuff. And of course, the last page was arguably more jaw-droppingly bitchin' than Angel being human.

[LaJaula]

Are Gunn and Illyria in this issue? I saw Wes in the preview page released, so I'm assuming he is? I'm glad we get to see more of the Connor/Gwen/Nina situation.

Can't wait for that transcript!

[KingofCretins]

Transcript is posted, La Jaula

Really, everyone is in it. Including the mystery character

[LaJaula]

Ooh, I didn't even check! It's so early!

*zooms off to read*

Edit: Okay. Wow. I may need to go back and reread, but here's some initial thoughts.

Spoiler:

Well, the cliffhanger was...wow. It all makes such sense now, though-- why Spike is so desperate to protect Illyria, why she's been going crazy, why Angel can sense more of Fred in her. And, of course, within this issue, Spike's line, "She’s why I’m here. She needs help, and that’s what you do." Nice that Spike's repaying the favor he owes Fred. So....not having seen that last image, is Fred definitely the woman on the First Night cover? I don't really think that looks much like her (the hair, for one) but maybe the way she's drawn in this panel makes it clear that they are one and the same.

I liked lots of the little things in here-- Angel shaving (which is funny, since I guess I never thought about the fact that, technically, vamps shouldn't have to cut their hair or shave. Explains why Spike doesn't have bleach his hair each week, although that doesn't really account for "Lessons"), Connor talking about how Angel would've visited him if he thought he was going to die, the mentions of Eve and Lindsey (I guess that means she's dead?), Spike and Angel fighting back-to-back. Although the narration in this issue seemed a bit off. I don't think I've ever heard Angel directly address the audience before. And "Man knows me" sounded odd, too, though I'm not sure why. It just doesn't seem to me like Angel would refer to Spike like that. Eh.

I also liked Angel 'fessing up for the whole Hell situation. Nice to see him start taking some responsibility. But what were the "seeds" that he and Wesley kept referring to? That hasn't been revealed yet, right; I haven't missed anything? Gunn referred to "seeds" also, though I'm not sure if he was talking about the same thing Angel was.

I'm really curious as to what Gunn's planning. No one knows he's back, and he's determined for it to stay that way. It's interesting that he was going to try to save the falling man, and also the civilians. But the line that makes me most curious was "Besides –– this is my doing. Band’s back together." How exactly was this Gunn's doing? Does he mean by making Angel find Spike and Illyria, by framing them for the murders? Or is there something else going on here?

Oh-- and given the fact that Spike and Gwen (and presumably Nina) know each other, I'm hoping we get some of both of them in Spike: After the Fall.

Thanks for the transcript, King!

[NileQT87]

a whole discussion dedicated to jossverse vampire hair:

Spoiler:

being demonology nut here, i'll step in on the hair thing... this is an anne rice-ism as far as vampires--and doesn't work in the jossverse. vampires' hair grows in the jossverse. that was established very strongly as all the vamps are shown to have fluctuating hair lengths and styles. all of which had hair that grew and shortened several times and they used wigs in some of these instances, so it's not a matter of actor's hair length either. it is certified fact that vampire hair grows in the jossverse. and not the first time somebody has wondered either (see: willow in reptile boy).

see: angel 1920s-1943-1952 short hair / angel circa 1976 fuglicious donut shop wig (earliest year gotten from jukebox songs)
see: spike 2002 basement dark roots
see: spike 1880-1900 hair grows a ponytail
see: angelus 1838-mid-1800s grows mustache and even longer hair
see: drusilla 1958 flashback with very short hair and her next appearance chronologically is back to long hair

also: darla loses her bangs upon resurrection and angel's hair stays the same returning from hell for 100 years!

if hair stopped growing for vampires, it'd either play by anne rice rules and grow back within the day (the iwtv movie makes it instantaneous for claudia) or never grow back at all (and that just doesn't work). yes, angel and all of them have to shave, get haircuts, etc... also explains some 5 o'clock shadow with david boreanaz in later seasons of ats (vincent kartheiser also had it going as well).

angel should actually find shaving and cutting his hair easier now with a reflection. now i'm getting this image in my head of darla giving the fanged four all haircuts and drusilla banned from trying to help.

brian--people here can definitely help you with any continuity questions you might have!!! lol!

the actual review (and its an excited, happy one):

Spoiler:

FREDIKINS! and wesley. see! i knew that the wes/fred/illyria thing was supposed to be in season 6! and wes getting in trouble for being too much of a cheerleader for angel--great drama.

now, i want my epic wesley/fred/illyria drama!!!

and nice mentions of lindsey and eve (also giving us confirmation that she got killed when w&h was coming down--as lorne said)!

liked lorne's bit of using his out-of-dimensioness to say his champion is himself in the forms of connor, gwen, nina, spike, groo, etc... lol.

ok, she-skip has to be killed by a gunshot to the ripped-off earhole. com'on. it's a classic. and i kind of think it would be funny if the dragon incinerated the t-rex into a dinosaur skeleton... but that would be pretty looney tunes-level funny.

and yay, fred!

and um, yeah. the shaving thing doesn't make sense. see above.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Spoiler:

Funny. Charming and funny. Haven't read the comic yet, just the transcript. But "long awkward night"? Heh. Loving your work ladies and gentlemen of the comics industry.

Gonna hold off posting til I've read the actual comment, but thanks very much for the transcript KOC. Forlorn, heh!

And think this has the makings of an awesome issue.

[NileQT87]

a few segments of what i wrote to brian lynch:

Spoiler:

i particularly love the guest artist for the "wesley: first night" issue previews that we've gotten (please get him to do more! wow!).

------------------------------

but yeah, can i just say... FRED/ILLYRIA/WESLEY! *this* is exactly the #1 thing i was waiting for (besides angel becoming human someday--that was a glorious treat). when season 6 was getting discussed and its plans... the fact that the plan seemed to be that wesley's death would have been held off a season and wesley/illyria would enter a fairly unhealthy relationship (one hinted at frequently in the remnants of foreshadowing for that arc), illyria started exhibiting fred-behaviors/feelings earlier ("the girl in question"/"not fade away") and fred was supposed to get put back into a shared body of sorts. that was what fans have heard for the non-existent 6th season with that arc.

in that respect, fans knew fred would somehow be coming back to share bodies with illyria. same with vamp-gunn.

though--fred's soul was destroyed... so actually lorne was wrong. she wouldn't have gone to heaven. the soul debate faction of the fandom seems pretty sure on the idea that its all about the soul as far as what happens to you (vampire victim souls don't go to heaven or hell--they go into the ether--a state of nothingness--and despite dueling theories, the idea that angel is liam and liam/angelus are separate entities reigns supreme--ditto for william/spike). there's even a discussion after fred dies where they discuss trying to put fred back in the shell, and they find out her soul has been destroyed. another example of soul-destroying was halfreck in "selfless". there is no afterlife that we know of after that. either fred's soul wasn't destroyed or it was and illyria is just getting even more corrupted by the electric spasms from fred's brain in her dying moments giving illyria fred's memories and then, illyria got the "origin" set of memories.

hopefully, you'll deal with that little factoid of fred's soul having been destroyed (or was it?). or is it fred's memories corrupting illyria (remember wesley's speech about all that we are is based upon our memories--see: "origin")... it would be the astronaut conquering the caveman if it were fred's memories corrupting illyria rather than it actually being fred's soul being stuffed back in like an angel/angelus bunkmate deal. of course, we do know that illyria was already showing signs of being corrupted by fred's memories--feelings for wesley, in particular.

speaking of "origin"... only wesley and illyria should know of connor's relation to angel. spike has obviously been clued in and gwen has relearned it... but technically, it should be a blank to a few key other characters still (like gunn, lorne, etc...).

[Ralphie]

Since Vail is dead I think the spell is gone, so everybody remembers

[ThePoet's<3]

So - does ANYONE have anything to say about Issue #5?? Since it was released Wednesday??

Spoiler:

I for one am glad to see Fred back!!! I think that was a GREAT move because it was one of the worst (emotionally) when she turned into Illyria.

However - as this is AU Hell-A - will she remain Fred when all is right with the world?? Which leads me to wonder will all be reversed when the world is made right again? Will Angel be Vampire once more? Wesley still dead? Gunn still human?

What I found interesting was Spike's whole coversation with Angel (which come ON wasn't it great the two of them fighting side-by-side and having this little - "Oh yeah - by the way - " kinda conversation?!?) about Illyria turning into to Fred!

Do we think Spike knew this was probably what was happening during the last issue when he is talking with Spider?? Perhaps he had seen glimpses of Fred all along??

And I LOVED the quick action battle scenes! Unfortunately my comic store had only 4 Angel comics available - and all four were special edition covers!! How odd is that?! At $20 a piece I decided I could wait until next week to get my regular priced cover and see the art action layout.

Kudos again to KoC who transcribes each issue!!! Even the writing flowed very well and I had no problem following the storyline without the artwork.

Spike's mention of his time with Spider and her girl warriors (Can't wait to see them with clothes ON! ) makes me very excited with anticipation of the Spike: ATF - perhaps a little more information about this in his spin-off issue??