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  • Question about Angel (possible spoilers)

    I'm not sure where to put this so if it belongs somewhere else please move it thanks

    I've been reading season 6 of Angel so i'm up to date with everything. I just recently started rewatchiing season one of buffy today. According to season 6 so far Angel is human and was only healed quickly because of W&H. Obviously Angel was turned back in the 17/1800's. W&H has essentially been around since the beginning of time. So is it safe to assume that even though Angel looked like a vamp back then and he got a soul, he could have been under the control of W&H? Just something that came to my attention. They also could have led him to getting his soul back they have the power to do so if you really think about it...

  • #2
    What do you mean with "turned back"? And with "looked like a vampire"? He was a vampire until AtF.

    Liam is sired in 1750 (or somewhere around that year) and he got his soul in 1898. Between those years he was Angelus and after 1898 he was Angel (except those two times he lost his soul in BtVS and Ats).

    I think it important to remember that Angel thinks that W&H made him human, but Wesley thinks that there is something bigger than W&H going on. So, it not clear why Angel is human (if he is really human) and who did it. The quick healing was because all those tricks. We see a scary demon thing on Angel's wound and we see magic spells to heal Angel, that is Wesley's work I guess.

    And about Angel's soul, I don't think that W&H did it ... simply because they want him soulless. Since me met them, they want to bring Angelus back. And we don't know why they are so focused on Angel(us) ...

    And Angel was never been under their control, that is their problem. They try to keep him under their control (season 5) but in the end, they can't let him do what they want.

    They want something of him, maybe a prophecy we don't know about? Maybe they want Angelus to do something, what only he can do and what Angel won't do? If this is the case, they aren't behind the (fake?) Shansu, because Angelus is gone now. Or the theory, that Angel will be a vampire again after their return from hell, is a very good guess.


    I hope that this is what you were talking about because I didn't really understand your question/point.
    Nina
    and her haircut.
    Last edited by Nina; 09-03-08, 07:51 PM.

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    • #3
      If I'm reading you right I think the confusion may be coming in that you're thinking the reveal meant that W&H all along, at least in the time we knew him, were giving Angel vampiric powers when he'd in fact turned human again already at some point in his history. In fact, what really happened is that Angel somehow lost his vampirism only after Not Fade Away, when LA was dropped into Hell. Previously he'd always been a vampire since Darla first sired him, no strings attached (well except the soul) .

      If I'm reading you wrong though I apologize.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sacred Knight View Post
        If I'm reading you right I think the confusion may be coming in that you're thinking the reveal meant that W&H all along, at least in the time we knew him, were giving Angel vampiric powers when he'd in fact turned human again already at some point in his history. In fact, what really happened is that Angel somehow lost his vampirism only after Not Fade Away, when LA was dropped into Hell. Previously he'd always been a vampire since Darla first sired him, no strings attached (well except the soul) .

        If I'm reading you wrong though I apologize.
        Your more on my way of thinking then Nina is ^^;; I get that Angel was sired by Darla but don't you think theres a possibility that it could have been orchestrated by wolfram and hart. W&H might have wanted him to be turned so he could have been the one to get the soul so he could fufill the phrophecy, and while him having the soul they were trying to get him to play on ther side. One of the phrophecies said that the vampire with a soul would either help save or let loose the apocalypse something to that extent anyway. I don't recall it being specified a side that angel would be on..

        I guess my point is that I think it's plausible to say that Wolfram and Hart engineered Angel including Darla siring him...

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        • #5
          I see it as a huge money/stock market with The First, Jasmine, PTBs, Senior Partners as the market makers and shakers. They can and will influence events, hey can also take advantage of other events that either happen through free will (big believer of that in the verse) or through another higher power influencing things. I couldn't say for certain who is dierectly responsible for what though, but I'd still like to think Darla was responsible for siring Angel and the SPs, PTBs etc, saw the opportunity to use that event for their own end.

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          • #6
            Okay, I cleary didn't get it. But I think that I understand the point now.
            And I agree with Kana.

            My question was always; How powerful are the senior partners? Illyria told us that they are really old but they were never that important. They clearly survived and became more powerful ... but Wesley is thinking that they lost control in hell, that would point out that they are overrated. I really don't know how powerful they are; Do they have so much power because they are really powerful or becasue they have lots of big demons working for them.

            And like I said in my first post in this thread, I'm sure that the SP have plans with Angel(us), but he is chosen by the PTB. They are the gods who brought him back, they did send Doyle and Whistler to guide Angel. So, is Angel important for the SP because he is important to TPTB or because they were always interested in Angel(us)? I think it's the first option because in the 100 years after Romania, he was in LA a lot and pretty vulnerable. If they wanted to bring Angelus back, it would be easy in those years. Nobody to protect him or give him his soul back.

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            • #7
              I don't think that Wolfram and Hart are interested in Angelus at all.

              My understanding is that they are interested in Angel because he was the only person to qualify for the shanshu prophecy. Angel would be the key player to determine whether the world would be saved or destroyed. Now, Angel only qualifies because he's a vampire with a soul. Up until the gypsies cursed him, I don't think he was on thier radar. Angelus can't affect the shanshu prophecy because he's soulless and doesn't qualify.

              This raises the question of why W&H would turn Angel human. Becuase if the shanshu prophecy is still unfulfilled, a human Angel doesn't qualify either. It's gotta be a vampire with a soul.

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              • #8
                I always thoughtthat they wanted him evil, it never occurred to me that they wanted to corrupt Angel since the beginning. But it makes more sense. But again why didn't they try it before Angel went to Sunnydale. The bitter and lonely guy would be so much easier to corrupt.

                And I'm alway confused what the actually Shanshu prophecy is; Is it only about the soulled vampire who becomes human, or is the part about having a key player in the apocalypse also part of the same prophecy. If it are two prophecies, there is a chance that Angel is the vampire in the first, and Spike the vampire in the second.

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