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  • #21
    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    The act in question is the definitive issue -- it was an objective moral wrong, intentions are completely moot. That's why Angel felt guilty about it. Angel doesn't get to decide what's right for his friends, or for his son, at the expense of the rights of others.
    But, the intentions are what drive the act. And deciding what's right for others is part of the job description of a LEADER.

    For the record, I can't say that I AGREE with the choice Angel made - I'm just saying that I can UNDERSTAND the awful dilemma facing Angel.
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    • #22
      I understand why he did the wrong thing, too

      There are some things that are always wrong no matter why you do it. Marauding the memories and life experiences of your friends is such a thing.
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      • #23
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        I understand why he did the wrong thing, too

        There are some things that are always wrong no matter why you do it. Marauding the memories and life experiences of your friends is such a thing.
        I can't disagree that there are some things that are always wrong no matter why you do it. That's what free will is all about.

        And I am ashamed to admit that in the same situation under the same circumstances, it would have only taken me a microsecond to do exactly the same thing Angel did. And I would know it was wrong and I would be guilt ridden forever for it. But there is no way I could let my son kill himself or anyone else if I could see any alternative. Especially if that alternative would (apparently) hurt no one but me.
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        • #24
          While I agree that messing with your friends' minds is wrong I think Angel had good intentions when he did it. First he was trying to give his son a normal life away from things that would kill him. Away from himself. It seems that Angel believes most people would be better off away from him. Out in the light. So he tried to drag his son away from this. I think he was also trying to make everyone feel...better, for a lack of a better word. He needed his team thinking straight and ready for battle. Can't fight evil if everyone is sitting in a corner reflecting on the past. He tried to make his friends mental capable of moving on. It wasn't the best way, but I wouldn't condemn him for it. (does any of my babble make sense?)

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          • #25
            It's interesting how it parallels with Jasmine. She interfered with free will in order to give those she loved everything which Angel condemned but he somehow identified with her:

            ANGEL
            I know how that feels. 'Cause I want to give you everything. I want to take back the mistakes, help you start over.

            Jasmine swooped in and made everything ok with one big gesture and that's what Angel did. Do I understand Angel? Of course. Did he do the right thing? It's questionable just like Jasmine's argument can be questioned. Even Wesley after he got his memories back not only understood Angel (I guess he did as he never brought it up again) but he preferred his new memories, and Connor felt the same.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by LRae12 View Post
              It's like saying was it wrong that a father killed a man who broke into his home to harm or kill his child. Of course not. No one would hold that father responsible for protecting his home and child. Angel did what was necessary and right for his family.

              That is totally diffrent. The man who broke in the house was guilty of trying to cause harm. Gun, Wesley and Fred were not harming Conner.

              With that said, I was glad Angel did what he did. It rang true. Angel wasn't so high and mighty that he would turn that down.
              Last edited by Goddess Guidance; 04-07-07, 12:35 AM.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Goddess Guidance View Post

                That is totally diffrent. The man who broke in the house was guilty of trying to cause harm. Gun, Wesley and Fred were not harming Conner.

                With that said, I was glad Angel did what he did. It rang true. Angel wasn't so high and mighty that he would turn that down.
                No, but with the state of mind Connor was in, Connor was a direct threat to THEM - he was ready to kill Cordy and himself and we don't even know what else.

                In You're Welcome, Cordy herself isn't in love with Angel's explanation, but the must have accepted Angel's reasons, because she doesn't beat it into the ground, like only Cordy can.

                Angel has raised martyrdom to an art form. The only thing all martyrs have in common is that they are all DEAD - and with Angel being dead already, well, that just provides endless opportunities for Angel to throw himself on his sword!
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                • #28
                  uuhm... I don't think it was right for angel to choose to erase/alter everyone's memories... althoug I do understand why he did it. He had never been able to give Conner what he needed because of what Holtz had done and Conner was never gonna see him as a father, listen to him and let Angel help. And yes as a parent I think you are then desperate to try anything and this way Conner could have a normal childhood (what he deserved). I also do understand why Angel wouldn't have wanted the other to know since then he would have had to deal with the questions and it constantly being brought up when Angel probably would just want to forget all about it...
                  hiding, scared
                  why won't it let go?
                  What did I do?
                  Will it ever end?
                  Ever get better?

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Cinderela View Post
                    No, but with the state of mind Connor was in, Connor was a direct threat to THEM - he was ready to kill Cordy and himself and we don't even know what else.


                    Then it was Angel's duty to kill him.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Goddess Guidance View Post


                      Then it was Angel's duty to kill him.
                      At this moment, I can't imagine anything that would make me kill my son.
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                      • #31
                        Please stop posting oneliners in this thread! As you know, posting oneliners is considered spamming here at Buffy Forums so please write longer and more in-depth posts. Thank you!

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Cinderela View Post
                          At this moment, I can't imagine anything that would make me kill my son.

                          He had more of a right to kill Conner than to alter his friends memories. It wouldn't be an easy thing to do and I'm not saying I would. Ojectively it's more correct.

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Cori View Post
                            Please stop posting oneliners in this thread! As you know, posting oneliners is considered spamming here at Buffy Forums so please write longer and more in-depth posts. Thank you!
                            Thanks for the reminder!

                            Originally posted by Goddess Guidance View Post

                            He had more of a right to kill Conner than to alter his friends memories. It wouldn't be an easy thing to do and I'm not saying I would. Ojectively it's more correct.
                            Killing him would have set up a whole new set of problems with all the rest of the gang. Since one of the underlying themes of Angel has ALWAYS been redemption, it would have been pretty hard for Angel to justify KILLING his son when Angel himself has done so many things that he should have been staked over. (Even earlier in that season!) I wonder if the gang would have had a harder time forgiving Angel for killing Connor or for making the choice he did.....huh.....I never thought of that before.

                            After everything they went through to SAVE Connor, I wonder how they would have handled it if Angel just killed him.........interesting - I'll have to think about that awhile.

                            Has anyone else thought that through?
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                            • #34
                              Well, maybe I'm dusty...but why did he have to alter his friends memories in order to save Connor? Couldn't he have just altered Connor's and the new families memories.

                              It was terribly wrong to change his friends memories. If he was worried about Connor's safety, who could have lied and said that Connor was dead. But wiping out all of their memories for about 2 years was really stealing a large portion of who they were as people.

                              Lydia made the punch!

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                              • #35
                                He probably didn't, Lyn. No reason to think Vail could have tailored it more narrowly. But, since the entire point of offering it to him was to corrupt him, why not exploit his willingness to sacrifice the interests of his friends for his own benefit?

                                Oh, to have been a fly on that imaginary wall when Lilah explained what the ritual would entail, and Angel's reaction to it. I really doubt he had any reservations or even questioned the premise about erasing their memories. He had left that kind of compassion for his people back somewhere in Season 3.
                                Last edited by KingofCretins; 10-07-07, 06:15 AM.
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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                  He probably didn't, Lyn. No reason to think Vail could have tailored it more narrowly. But, since the entire point of offering it to him was to corrupt him, why not exploit his willingness to sacrifice the interests of his friends for his own benefit?
                                  I think it was more for Connor's own benifit. Angel's own benifit would be erasing their memories so that Connor loved Angel as a father and wanted to fight alongside with him.

                                  Oh, to have been a fly on that imaginary wall when Lilah explained what the ritual would entail, and Angel's reaction to it. I really doubt he had any reservations or even questioned the premise about erasing their memories.
                                  Angel's always been concerned with spells, I doubt he wouldn't have even questioned the premise, that is something anyone would naturally do before signing the deal.

                                  Remember Wes' in s4 stating "A fresh start, doesn't sound so bad" when speaking about Cordy unwillingly loosing her memory? Perhaps Angel felt he was actually doing them all a favour? I don't agree with what he did but I don't think it could be deemed selfish either, just not a choice that Angel should have made.

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                                  • #37
                                    Even when he's not essentially morally ambivalent, as he is by the time he takes the job at Wolfram & Hart, Angel is notorious for acting on his own opinion without having sought any input from others. Even in "I Will Remember You", he make a unilateral decision not to stay with Buffy and then another, and idiotic, unilateral decision to ruin the time with her by telling her what was going on after it was too late. Season 2 is basically one ongoing process of Angel ignoring anyone else. In Season 3, he decides on his own that Wesley deserves to die (and settles for kicked out).
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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                      Even when he's not essentially morally ambivalent, as he is by the time he takes the job at Wolfram & Hart, Angel is notorious for acting on his own opinion without having sought any input from others.
                                      We could just as easily accuse Buffy of doing the same thing, there are many instances throughout the series when she acts in the exact manner. I don't really see this as a fault; more the traits of a leader.

                                      Even in "I Will Remember You", he make a unilateral decision not to stay with Buffy and then another, and idiotic, unilateral decision to ruin the time with her by telling her what was going on after it was too late.
                                      Would you rather he not tell Buffy at all like he did with his own team? Again this was about saving Buffy's life, the Oracles state she will die sooner and that the only way Angel can help Buffy and innocent people is by being a vampire again.

                                      Season 2 is basically one ongoing process of Angel ignoring anyone else. In Season 3, he decides on his own that Wesley deserves to die (and settles for kicked out).
                                      The same way Buffy decides on her own that she is going to sacrifice herself in The Gift even when Dawn tells her no, or when she refuses anyone from killing Dawn because she says so, or when she decides on her own that she will kill Faith or that she will go down into the vineyard?

                                      No one usually sits down with a group and talks about a decision of killing someone who just stole their son and had him lost in a hell dimension; it wouldn't exactly be the normal thing to do.

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                        I think it was more for Connor's own benifit. Angel's own benifit would be erasing their memories so that Connor loved Angel as a father and wanted to fight alongside with him.



                                        Angel's always been concerned with spells, I doubt he wouldn't have even questioned the premise, that is something anyone would naturally do before signing the deal.

                                        Remember Wes' in s4 stating "A fresh start, doesn't sound so bad" when speaking about Cordy unwillingly loosing her memory? Perhaps Angel felt he was actually doing them all a favour? I don't agree with what he did but I don't think it could be deemed selfish either, just not a choice that Angel should have made.

                                        He was so afraid of what Connor would do or had planned to do.....I wonder if he was so desperate he wasn't thinking AT ALL.....just feeling and searching for ANY way out of the situation. He probably didn't feel he would be hurting anyone but himself.

                                        Kinda like the Jasmine thing - they were so desperate to stop what THEY perceived Jasmine was doing that they all looked shocked when Lilah announced that they had ended world peace.
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                                        • #40
                                          We could just as easily accuse Buffy of doing the same thing, there are many instances throughout the series when she acts in the exact manner. I don't really see this as a fault; more the traits of a leader.
                                          With Buffy, it's never been a pattern of behavior that's gotten her people killed. In Angel's case, *all* his people, except for Lorne, who ultimately walked away on his own, and Spike, who never would have rightly been called one of "his" people.

                                          Would you rather he not tell Buffy at all like he did with his own team? Again this was about saving Buffy's life, the Oracles state she will die sooner and that the only way Angel can help Buffy and innocent people is by being a vampire again.
                                          Buffy was probably right that he should have talked to her before he did anything like that. But, yeah, after he did it -- why tell her? Nothing would have changed.

                                          Kinda like the Jasmine thing - they were so desperate to stop what THEY perceived Jasmine was doing that they all looked shocked when Lilah announced that they had ended world peace.
                                          They weren't wrong about Jasmine. Lilah was picking at their self-doubt. Peace is more than just an absence of conflict. Jasmine was bringing nothing but tyranny.
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