Was It Right

[Salvation]

In Angel season 4 Finale Angel & the rest of AI members chosed to work in Walfram & Hart & use all the resources of the law firm have so they can fight the First Evil, but as we all know there's a catch.

I wanna know was it right That Angel decided to give his son the normal life he never knew with a loving family,even if it means that Connor will never knew that Angel is his real father & the AI members have no idea who Connor is?

Was earsing everyone's memory was the right decision for all of them?

[KingofCretins]

No, it wasn't. Angel had no right to forcibly override the memories of everyone he knows without their consent, any more than Willow had the right to erase Tara's.

[Dorian's Kitten]

No, it wasn't. But the worse part is that I think if he would have asked they would have consented, and then it would have been fine.He didn't give his crew enough credit; they would have understood. He had the best of intentions but, as Buffy learned,you can't fight evil by doing evil.

[vampmogs]

I've never understood why Angel didn't tell his group and have all their memories remain intact but everyone elses, including Connor's erased. Perhaps Angel wanted another shot at a healthy relationship with Wes, and for everyone to remember Cordy as something other than Jasmines lackey. Regardless, I agree with the majority in saying that I don't believe he had a right to do this, and I completely understand Wes' intial anger when he found out Angel had done something to their memories.

[sherrilina]

I've never understood why Angel didn't tell his group and have all their memories remain intact but everyone elses, including Connor's erased. Perhaps Angel wanted another shot at a healthy relationship with Wes, and for everyone to remember Cordy as something other than Jasmines lackey. Regardless, I agree with the majority in saying that I don't believe he had a right to do this, and I completely understand Wes' intial anger when he found out Angel had done something to their memories.

How was Cordy Jasmine's lackey--isn't a lackey a willing and conscientious servant to someone, like the Beast was to Jasmine (as Angelus notes)? Cordy was anything but willing--she was unable to do anything to stop it though. I don't think lackey is the right word to describe her--more like 'host' or something like that.....

And lol, it's an interesting question as far as Wes, b/c I think he was certainly happier without the memories...though it's still not Angel's place to change them. I do wonder though whether it was even an option for the gang's memories to remain or not--in IWRY Angel is also the only one who remembers. I know it's a different case, but maybe illusions have to follow similar rules, and it's an all-or-nothing deal, or it defies certain laws--like either everyone's memories or changed (except for one person, the originator--and anyone not conscious at the time), or nothing is changed--and obviously Connor's memories and life had to be chnaged to save him. If it was an all-or-nothing deal, it might have been less wrong, though he might have discussed it with them first....

[vampmogs]

How was Cordy Jasmine's lackey--isn't a lackey a willing and conscientious servant to someone, like the Beast was to Jasmine (as Angelus notes)? Cordy was anything but willing--she was unable to do anything to stop it though. I don't think lackey is the right word to describe her--more like 'host' or something like that.....

Your right and I was actually struggling for words here to articulate what I was trying to say. I had actually originally written that Cordy was Jasmine's "bitch" but changed it The point is, maybe Angel was happy to have the gang's memory erased, to give Cordy some of her dignity back (even though it wasn't her, I figured she'd get some weird looks and uncomfortable glances).

And lol, it's an interesting question as far as Wes, b/c I think he was certainly happier without the memories...though it's still not Angel's place to change them. I do wonder though whether it was even an option for the gang's memories to remain or not--in IWRY Angel is also the only one who remembers. I know it's a different case, but maybe illusions have to follow similar rules, and it's an all-or-nothing deal, or it defies certain laws--like either everyone's memories or changed (except for one person, the originator--and anyone not conscious at the time), or nothing is changed--and obviously Connor's memories and life had to be chnaged to save him. If it was an all-or-nothing deal, it might have been less wrong, though he might have discussed it with them first....

Well we know that Eve and Cordy retained their memories about Connor and the past, so Angel wasn't the only one to remember. I think the spells in IWRY and 'Home' were slightly different. For one thing, I believe the Oracles had access to a lot more power than Veil ever did. The Oracle's spell appeared to be lasting whereas Veil's spell was contained within that box thingy (memory blank).

[Mabus]

Well, the Oracles actually changed history, though, didn't they? The events they removed actually failed to happen. They did more than alter memories, or Angel would still have been human.

[sherrilina]

Well we know that Eve and Cordy retained their memories about Connor and the past, so Angel wasn't the only one to remember. I think the spells in IWRY and 'Home' were slightly different. For one thing, I believe the Oracles had access to a lot more power than Veil ever did. The Oracle's spell appeared to be lasting whereas Veil's spell was contained within that box thingy (memory blank).

I know the spell was different, but I was saying that maybe it worked on a similar principal--I don't think Cordy counts as I implied b/c she wasn't conscious at the time (kind of like how Angelus still remembered Jasmine b/c he wasn't conscious, or his consciousness wasn't present or surfaced, at the time of Jasmine's wipe, which I assume is a similar situation), and Even is a special case b/c she's the liason to the Senior Partners, and was created by them I believe--I don't think she's quite human. And obviously Angel has to know, and the guy who created the spell. But no one else does--and so I think that it could eb a sitation where the illusion has to include all conscious people (who aren't connected to Senior Partners outside of the normal dimension, and thus aren't fully part of this world) present, or no one.

[vampmogs]

Well, the Oracles actually changed history, though, didn't they? The events they removed actually failed to happen. They did more than alter memories, or Angel would still have been human.

Good point, it was more than just changing memories, they actually reversed time.

I know the spell was different, but I was saying that maybe it worked on a similar principal--I don't think Cordy counts as I implied b/c she wasn't conscious at the time (kind of like how Angelus still remembered Jasmine b/c he wasn't conscious, or his consciousness wasn't present or surfaced, at the time of Jasmine's wipe, which I assume is a similar situation), and Even is a special case b/c she's the liason to the Senior Partners, and was created by them I believe--I don't think she's quite human. And obviously Angel has to know, and the guy who created the spell. But no one else does--and so I think that it could eb a sitation where the illusion has to include all conscious people (who aren't connected to Senior Partners outside of the normal dimension, and thus aren't fully part of this world) present, or no one.

I've never really understood the whole Angelus still remembering because he wasn't conscious thing. Angelus wasn't conscious when the monks altered everyone's memories to include Dawn, yet he obviously remembers her as he talks to her on the phone.

[sherrilina]

Good point, it was more than just changing memories, they actually reversed time.

Did they? I thought it was more like re-writing history, like what Skip did in Birthday....though I guess turning back the clock is both reversing time and rewriting history!

I've never really understood the whole Angelus still remembering because he wasn't conscious thing. Angelus wasn't conscious when the monks altered everyone's memories to include Dawn, yet he obviously remembers her as he talks to her on the phone.

Well it might have been a different spell, but I think it's more of a plot hole or goof....the whole Angelus not remembering thing is complicated and confusing, b/c it would seem to support the idea that Angelus is a completely separate entity from Angel, almost like a multiple personality or schizophrenia, not just a potential or past....especially when Angel says stuff like "things Angelus did...that I did..." The writers seemed like they couldn't decided what they wanted Angelus to be in relation to Angel....I think season 4 and the whole "Angelus remembers but Angel doesn't" thing shows Angelus to be worthy of his own character thread, but oh well....

I do think though that there would be no question of Cordy not being affected by the spell b/c she was unconscious--while Angelus is confusing, the principle of people not being affected by a spell while they were not present conscious-wise in a given place makes sense. Anyone ever read Artemis Fowl here, lol?

[Cinderela]

I wanna know was it right That Angel decided to give his son the normal life he never knew with a loving family,even if it means that Connor will never knew that Angel is his real father & the AI members have no idea who Connor is?

Was earsing everyone's memory was the right decision for all of them?

Well, considering Connor was both homicidal AND suicidal at the point that Angel had to decide, I can't totally condemn him for the choice he made. All anyone can do is make what seems like the best choice with the information they have at the time. Personally speaking, there isn't much I wouldn't do to protect my children and my friends. Including living with the guilt that Angel's choice would cause. It would seem like a small price to pay to save my son.

No, it wasn't. Angel had no right to forcibly override the memories of everyone he knows without their consent, any more than Willow had the right to erase Tara's.

King, IMHO, the big difference between what Angel did and what Willow did is that Angel chose what he thought was in someone else's best interest. Willow erased Tara's memory because it was in Willow's own best interest. In my mind, those are totally different circumstances.

[vampmogs]

King, IMHO, the big difference between what Angel did and what Willow did is that Angel chose what he thought was in someone else's best interest. Willow erased Tara's memory because it was in Willow's own best interest. In my mind, those are totally different circumstances.

That is a very interesting point and one I have to agree with. I'm not saying I support Angel's decision but in saying that, it isn't really the same as Willows. Angel tried to give his son a better life, his friends a better life. Willow on the otherhand was thinking entirley about herself, she changed things so Tara couldn't have an opinion on her magic or the relationship.

[kana]

I tell what this reminds me of: The Prodigal. Angel quickly made a moral judgement about Trevor Lockley. Trevor responds like this.

Trevor: You got any kids, Angel?
Angel: No.
Trevor: Right. Then don't think you know how a father feels, or why he does the things he does.

I bet now Angel understands Trevor. It's kind of 'when you have kids you'll understand' kind of deal.

[KingofCretins]

I think it's a false distinction. I'm sure if you were to ask Willow, she would have reasoned that it was better for Tara not to remember getting so upset about Willow's magic use, since the magic use was no big deal anyway.

Angel's unilateral decision to take over W&H, a decision which is the proximate cause of the death of at least two and probably three of his closest friends, was one of many things he's done that make me question exactly how great he is, soul or not. The fact that he was willing to plunder his friends' memories without their consent is just brutal and unjust.

[ciderdrinker]

I don't think he was entirely right, but I do think he was fair. He was doing something to protect his son and his friends, and like Cinderela said when it comes to the right thing for your kids, almost anything goes as long as they're ok. (I'm a mother and do understand the decision)

On the whole, the others were better off with the new memories, as is shown by Wes being upset after he's got his memories back, but obviously it could've gone the other way, which is why I don't think he was right to do it, but he took a calculated risk (something he has to do every time he goes against anything evil) and it paid off.

[LRae12]

Well, for anyone who has a child, the answer is of course it was right. You'd do anything to protect your child and make sure they grow up healthy and well adjusted. Since Angel was robbed of that initially, he did the only thing he could do to ensure his son's happiness and well being. To not do so would have been wrong, from a parental stand point.

Was it wrong that everyone else's memories were adjusted? Maybe, but again as a parent your role first and foremost is to protect your child, not always being able to protect others in the process. It's like saying was it wrong that a father killed a man who broke into his home to harm or kill his child. Of course not. No one would hold that father responsible for protecting his home and child. Angel did what was necessary and right for his family.

[KingofCretins]

I don't think the fact that it was in Angel's interest as a parent even addresses the question of whether it was morally right. What if the question had been to kill them all in exchange for Connor, as he had been killing to kill Lilah for (Ma-sek-tet?) in the White Room? Based on the preceding arguments, this would have been 'right' because he is a parent acting in the interest of his child.

[LRae12]

Well, obviosly you can't go around mass murdering people and claim that you did it for your child...that's not what I meant.

I'm saying that nobody got hurt with what Angel did and it protected his son. As a parent you're faced with differing degrees of right and wrong everyday in connection with your child. You have to weigh the good vs. the bad, just like in any other situation.

[Cinderela]

I think it's a false distinction. I'm sure if you were to ask Willow, she would have reasoned that it was better for Tara not to remember getting so upset about Willow's magic use, since the magic use was no big deal anyway.

Angel's unilateral decision to take over W&H, a decision which is the proximate cause of the death of at least two and probably three of his closest friends, was one of many things he's done that make me question exactly how great he is, soul or not. The fact that he was willing to plunder his friends' memories without their consent is just brutal and unjust.

But, that's the exact point - Willow would have selfishly justified getting what SHE wanted by saying it was better for Tara. Angel put his own love for his son aside to do what he thought was best for Connor. He did feel guilty about plundering his friends memories, but it was the only way to give Connor the life that Angel couldn't. And, since Angel is almost continually angst ridden in his every day life, anyway, it probably seemed a small price to pay. Guilt wise, it probably seemed a pretty small guilt burden compared to his guilt about his past acts.

Unfortunately, we can't know all the possible consequences of any decision we make. Perhaps Angel would have made a different choice if he had known that his decision would be the proximate cause of his friend's deaths. Unfortunately, Angel is not a seer and had no way to know what was going to happen. And, as I recall, the gang was going to Angel to tell him to take the deal when he announced that he already had accepted.

Well, obviosly you can't go around mass murdering people and claim that you did it for your child...that's not what I meant.

I'm saying that nobody got hurt with what Angel did and it protected his son. As a parent you're faced with differing degrees of right and wrong everyday in connection with your child. You have to weigh the good vs. the bad, just like in any other situation.

Exactly my point - unfortunately this situation (as well as many real life situations) ended up in the "seemed like a good idea at the time" category.

No, it wasn't. But the worse part is that I think if he would have asked they would have consented, and then it would have been fine.He didn't give his crew enough credit; they would have understood. He had the best of intentions but, as Buffy learned,you can't fight evil by doing evil.

That being said, I do tend to agree with Dorian's Kitten. I believe the rest of the crew would have consented to save Connor. I think Joss made everything around the deal so vague on purpose just to keep us talking!

[KingofCretins]

But, that's the exact point - Willow would have selfishly justified getting what SHE wanted by saying it was better for Tara. Angel put his own love for his son aside to do what he thought was best for Connor. He did feel guilty about plundering his friends memories, but it was the only way to give Connor the life that Angel couldn't. And, since Angel is almost continually angst ridden in his every day life, anyway, it probably seemed a small price to pay. Guilt wise, it probably seemed a pretty small guilt burden compared to his guilt about his past acts.

The act in question is the definitive issue -- it was an objective moral wrong, intentions are completely moot. That's why Angel felt guilty about it. Angel doesn't get to decide what's right for his friends, or for his son, at the expense of the rights of others.