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"Angel: After the Fall" Chapter 4 Spoiler Discussion Thread

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  • "Angel: After the Fall" Chapter 4 Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Great issue, and finally lots of good splainy stuff!

    Things I had right --
    • Angel is *human*. Not meta-human, not superhuman.
    • The 'smell of magic' on him is from what Wesley describes as a vampire glamour.
    • The magic tricks at W&H have been the things keeping him healed as if he were a vampire.
    • Groo is back! Groo!


    What we still don't know is clearly why or how Angel is human. He opines that it's not because of the Shanshu because he signed it away, that it's something the Partners did to him for the reason we all thought -- to make him helpless. It's not clear whether or not this is permanent... because there's no indication that the Partners ever expect him to get out of this place. Logically, I figure it's gotta be permanent for that reason -- why would they plan around a contingency they don't expect? And we also get an explanation for him being unable to move for a while, and it's a good one.

    Lorne is, hysterically, the erstwhile lord of Silver Lake. But he seems to have set it up as... basically a suburban version of Caritas, really. The other demon lords just leaving him alone. Glad he's gone back to his roots, though. And I'm so excited to see Groo back, although why he had to be Pylea-clad Groo again, eh.

    Spider seems to be genuinely infatuated with Spike, and also quite a bit of a badass herself. Still loving her character. To the delight of Spuffy fans, Spike tends to treat her like he did girlfriend Harmony, but with a bit more respect because Spider is apparently a fairly dangerous lady.

    Gunn continues to be a complete badass, but also sympathetic. It's so sad that he wanted that photo of the gang from Season 3, though But he certainly is a man with a plan -- blowing up W&H! And, apparently, taking Wesley with it! Very exciting stuff.
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  • #2
    *puppy-eyes you for a transcript*

    (set made by Francy for me)

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    • #3
      Oh the issue is out already. *yeeh* I takes a while before I can read it but the new facts are fun.


      I'm glad that Angel is human and nothing special. It would make it cheap. He is just a good fighter. Those knives in issue #3 should have been painful. Poor Angel.

      Lorne is the last lord ... I was thinking about Groo. But Lorne is great, and Groo is back anyway. I love that Lorne made his part of the city a second Caritas. Is Groo with him?

      Is Spider wearing clothes in this issue? The whole 'no clothes' thing is a little awkward.

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      • #4
        Observations on my second read-through:

        1. Good explanation for Angel's 'not being able to move' thing.

        2. There are barriers keeping them all in Hell-A. Good to know.

        3. "They" turned Angel into a human because now is when he needs it most. Angel explicitly denies that it's due to Shanshu, and Wesley agrees with his assessment. Am a bit disappointed by this explanation of 'not a vampire' because it does mean we have the "because he's the hero" suspension of disbelief about how Angel could walk around for nearly an entire issue with 'normally mortal wounds', etc. And the fairly cheap prolongation of suspense with the 'not a vampire' turn of phrase.

        4. Not sure how actling like nothing has changed is supposed to help Angel get everyone out of hell. Angel does seem to have something up his sleeve though. He's planted seeds, whatever that means.

        5. Team Spike is letting Illyria be taken for the 'lord' while they have her locked up and are clearly 'handling' her. Spike, though, seems to have some respect for Illyria, since he objects to 'using' her for mojo as Spider suggests.

        6. Am guessing that the whole prisoner, to prisoner with benefits etc. narration is about Spike's relationship with Spider and her ladies. So I guess the 'ladies' have been enjoying Spike's "shockingly handsome" self. It'll be interesting to see what Spike has thought of that whole set up. Kid in a candy store, or just dealing with his situation as best he can? Brian is right. There is some kind of interesting story about how Spike reversed his situation with the 'ladies'.

        7. Most interesting panel of the issue (to a Spike fan). Spike flashes forward in time, and is wielding a weapon that looks an *awful* lot like Buffy's scythe. And *that's* the panel that would be most intriguing to Spuffies, I think.

        8. Not quite sure how the time flashing works. Had Spider also encountered Spike "back in the day"? The flash back in time is is a bit weird. William/early Spike wasn't blond. Mistake? Or something up with that? (Am guessing it's a mistake).

        9. Will be curious to see what sort of being Spider turns out to be. But can't say I am much intrigued by her 'character'.

        Not much else to say. Lorne, check. Groo, check. Gunn wanting the picture of the gang was a nice touch. W&H gets blown up and Wesley fades away. Am thinking that's all connected.

        Probably my least favorite issue to date. No real drama here -- just more answering questions and setting up.
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        • #5
          Am a bit disappointed by this explanation of 'not a vampire' because it does mean we have the "because he's the hero" suspension of disbelief about how Angel could walk around for nearly an entire issue with 'normally mortal wounds', etc. And the fairly cheap prolongation of suspense with the 'not a vampire' turn of phrase.
          "Because he's a hero" is hardly novel here, it's been pretty uniform throughout both series. And I just don't get the cheap prolongation... I mean, I still think that 'not a vampire', given all we know about Angel's history and the mythos in general, was self-explanatorily about becoming human, and was just the result of natural phrasing.

          5. Team Spike is letting Illyria be taken for the 'lord' while they have her locked up and are clearly 'handling' her. Spike, though, seems to have some respect for Illyria, since he objects to 'using' her for mojo as Spider suggests.
          I'm pretty confident that Illyria actually *is* the 'lord' of Beverly Hills -- it's not like a vault like that could hold her long term if she didn't abide it on some level. She's manageable the way wild predators are manageable, but she's definitely the power around there that the others respect, including the other lords. Spike is putting on airs.

          7. Most interesting panel of the issue (to a Spike fan). Spike flashes forward in time, and is wielding a weapon that looks an *awful* lot like Buffy's scythe. And *that's* the panel that would be most intriguing to Spuffies, I think.
          I have thought about the weapon there, and the decapitated body... I'm actually wondering if it was a flash forward to killing Spider at some point. I thought I saw the outline of the bikini on her. I don't think that's the scythe, though... or, if it is, someone needs to actually show Urru a picture of it, because it's actually quite off, on the design of the blade. The part Buffy hooked on Twilight's foot is missing, the "teeth" of it.

          I'm wondering if Spider is the one that does the time-flashing, and not Illyria. Granted, Illyria could have been effecting them through the vault, but still.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            "Because he's a hero" is hardly novel here, it's been pretty uniform throughout both series.
            It's never bothered me before -- probably because I don't recall them ever asking us to believe that a heroic human could run around and do heroic things while suffering from a 'normally mortal wound'. It's just sloppy writing, and probably should be filed away as another example of the sloppy writing done when they want to set up a 'plot twist'.

            I'm pretty confident that Illyria actually *is* the 'lord' of Beverly Hills -- it's not like a vault like that could hold her long term if she didn't abide it on some level. She's manageable the way wild predators are manageable, but she's definitely the power around there that the others respect, including the other lords. Spike is putting on airs.
            What does it mean to be a 'lord' when you are locked up, bossed around by your underlings and are contemplated as a weapon to be USED by said underlings? If the English language has any meaning, Illyria is not the Lord of Beverly Hills.

            I have thought about the weapon there, and the decapitated body... I'm actually wondering if it was a flash forward to killing Spider at some point. I thought I saw the outline of the bikini on her. I don't think that's the scythe, though... or, if it is, someone needs to actually show Urru a picture of it, because it's actually quite off, on the design of the blade. The part Buffy hooked on Twilight's foot is missing, the "teeth" of it.
            Sure looked like he had decapitated her. Weird how those flashbacks work -- cause she has a sense of being decapitated, but apparently no sense that Spike wielded the weapon that did the deed.

            The drawing seemed to me to be meant to suggest the mis-named scythe. (Seriously, has Joss seen a scythe? But this does support your point that appeals to ordinary english usage have limited relevance). Hard to say how far we are to follow out details. In the panel next to it we have a blond William/early Spike which is also a wrong 'detail'. I

            I'm wondering if Spider is the one that does the time-flashing, and not Illyria. Granted, Illyria could have been effecting them through the vault, but still.

            Had the impression that Illyria was effecting them through the vault. Spider wasn't nearby in #3 when Angel was flashing was he? Plus the flashing seems to be related to whatever Illyria-related-mojo Spider wants to use.

            Spike's protectiveness of Illyria is interesting. Am much more intrigued about that relationship than I am about Spike/Spider. (Interest in Spike/Spider is mostly just plot-driven, not character driven).
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            • #7
              What was this about "Spike contemplating changing sides" in the issue synopsis, by the way?
              Last edited by Enisy; 20-02-08, 11:18 PM.

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              • #8
                As near as I can tell, it's Spider's suggestion that since Angel is going to get killed anyway, Spike might as well be the one to do it: "He's going to die anyway, if it's by the lords' hands things go back to status quo. If it's by yours, we can kickstart the road back and do some good..."

                Not sure what she has in mind. But then, we just seemed to be plunged into about a million mysterious things so who knows. Who knows what Angel has in mind. Who knows what Angel's status has to do with their situation in hell. Who knows what the time-shifting deal is about. Who knows what Spider is. Who knows what Spider really wants to do with that Hagun gizmo...

                Issue chalk full of questions, a few answers, and not much else. Maybe others will have gotten more out of it than I did....
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                • #9
                  About halfway through the transcript, and I noticed a couple of significant things... the Spike with maybe-Scythe panel is a *future* timeslip, like Angel being old. There are flying cars in the background. Y'know, I'm starting to think that whole popping out and saying hi to Fray thing doesn't sound that nuts to me.

                  Spider is kinda creepy. Her manner of speech is... really odd -- she refers to humans as something external to herself, but she speaks in very human ways. And the cadence to her explanation of the Hagun shaft, during which she intermittently and withou pause inserts demands that Spike hand it over, feel almost subliminal, like she's commanding him in some way.

                  Although she does appear to be afraid of Illyria, she doesn't seem *too* afraid... she could be a lot more powerful than she's letting on.

                  As for Illyria, Spike seems so protective of her. If one wanted to pretend there was a 'ship to invest in here, it would be Spikelyria, not Spiker.
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                  • #10
                    I had caught the future clothes, but not the flying cars. Good catch. Since Spike's future clothes seem similar to Angel's future clothes, does that mean future!Angel from #3 was also well into the future? I've left a post at IDW for Brian asking if he can tell us if we are supposed to recognize the weapon Spike is holding.

                    Totally agree about Spike's relationship with Illyria being more interesting than spi-spi. Just that touch of the old Spike and the way he can care -- which we don't see with respect to Spider at all. Though it's hard to see Spike's concern as being remotely romantic, seeing as how Illyria is completely out of touch with reality.

                    Also agree that much is up with Spider. She's definitely got some kind of power. And I, too, was wondering if she hadn't some how commanded Spike to give her that staff. It'll be interesting to see why she's so interested in it and what she actually is. But character-wise, there's nothing to hook into, besides the mysteries about what she is. Not sure how powerful she is, though, if she wants to harness Illyria's power. And it'll be interesting to learn more about this reversal in Spike's fortunes vis a vis the ladies.

                    "Lass" "tad" (twice). Agree about the oddness of her speech.

                    But the issue defeats me. Too many unanswered questions to even know how to begin speculating about anything.
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                    • #11
                      I've left a post at IDW for Brian asking if he can tell us if we are supposed to recognize the weapon Spike is holding.
                      This is the first question I've heard that I have to say, if he doesn't just give it a straight answer, he's being a little unreasonable. If we're not supposed to recognize it, there's no reason not to answer, and if we are supposed to recognize it, there's no reason its first appearance should be ambiguous.

                      I'm not sure that wanting to harness Illyria's power tells us much about Spider not having great power of her own. Think of X-Men 3... Magneto is about as powerful and flawlessly designed a character as their is, but even he knew enough to want to harness Jean Grey. And that's the level Illyria runs at.
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                      • #12
                        Alas references to X-men fly right by me, but am willing to believe that Spider's desire to use Illyria's mojo doesn't mean she hasn't got other stuff up her sleeve. That is, if she actually had a sleeve.

                        I wonder how much Spike has gotten out of his various time flashes. This is the second time he's made a remark that suggests he's had quite a bit of experience with them. This one was a bit alarming, cause he suggests he understands what Spider is talking about when she says it was weird to be headless.
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                        • #13
                          I took the "Yeah. Tell me about it." to be a response to Illyria's bellowing from inside the vault, as if he's agreeing with the sentiment.

                          Spike looks trapped in a delicate game, but one he's pretty familiar with -- carefully mastering the art of being able to push around women who may be able to break him in half.

                          That is some *very* interesting stuff if that's really the scythe that he's holding. Too soon to know what to make of that, though, if it is.
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                          • #14
                            Well. Thanks for the transcript, King. I thought the issue was pretty good-- just like all the others, answering and asking tons of questions.

                            So Lorne knows about Connor? I love Silver Lake. Perfectly Lorne. I'm glad he's still on Angel's side- it's interesting to compare Angel's trip to Beverly Hills with his trip here. And while Groo was never a favorite of mine on Angel, I like him here so far. He's definitely got the best lines. "I assure you, my glimmering hope is so large, it eclipses the sun and the moon!" "Un-lord Lorne tells me you’re going to re-die in grand final battle against evil incarnate." I think that's the first time I've literally laughed out loud while reading these. I wonder what he'll say about Cordelia. And the She-Skip was interesting...I wonder what's up with that.

                            Spike's situation is interesting. What, exactly, does Spider want Illyria for? And why does she want Angel dead so badly? I wonder how she knows that Angel is important to Spike-- does she have any prior knowledge of them, or is this based only on their interactions in 2 and 3? The cover for Issue 5 is of Spike and Angel fighting, no? Maybe Spider gets her way. Spike seems wary of her-- much more so in this issue than he has in the past. And I really, really want to see a screencap of Spike with Scythe, just to see if it's the same one. If it is, consider me very, very curious/intrigued/fascinated/et cetera. Also interesting that Spider says that she stopped "the ladies" from killing Spike...I'm very confused about who's in charge of whom here. They have the power to kill Spike, but didn't, and now he's in control, but they're mostly humoring him? But Illyria could kill them all if she weren't so....crazy?

                            This issue made me care about Gunn more than any of the others have, too. Saving the picture of AI? Awwwww. And that gives me hope that Cordy will return. Plus, blowing up Wolfram and Hart gives me Old!Gunn flashbacks, especially to Blind Date. Too bad it came at Wesley's expense. Although I'm hoping this is temporary.

                            So, Spike has no idea that Angel's human, right? But he's holding a knife in the next cover, so it would seem that he finds out at some point. Maybe he goes to talk to Angel, and upon finding out that he's human, is so angry that he reconsiders Spider's advice.
                            The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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                            • #15
                              I haven't got my hands on the issue yet, but I've read the transcripts and just want to give my thoughts on a few things.

                              Firstly, another future flash foward with now Spike in a future city. Very interesting, first Angel, now Spike. Even more interesting is that it would appear Angel never again becomes a vampire again, seeing that he's an aged man in the future, whereas Spike is still a vampire, and looks like his old self, which means Spike doesn't get the Shanshu ect. I'm also thinking that perhaps Joss and Lynch are gearing us towards 'Fray' which isn't something I'd have suspected them to do on the Ats series, but it makes more sense because they've been in a hell dimension and we know time moves differently in other dimensions. But if they really are going to the future and it is indeed 'Fray's timeline, then wow.

                              Secondly, still don't have much sympathy for Gunn. Though his existance proves once again that Spike and Harmony aren't the only vampires capable of genuine human feelings. We've known seen that from James and Elizabeth through their love, Spike's love for Buffy and Dawn, Harmony showing genuine sorrow for Fred and compassion towards Gunn, and now Gunn holding the gang dear to his heart. But like all of them vampires I mentioned, he lacks the moral compass, all his talk about doing good doesn't sit well when a future issues back he was snacking on a bunch of girls.. and oh yeah, he's trying to kill Angel.

                              So are we led to believe that Angel was out for so long because of the broken back and legs ect. Because I'm really happy with that, I was wondering if they were going to try and drag his character through the dirt some more and come up with some story that he quit and gave up, or just didn't care anymore, because before this I was getting the impression he was ashamed and that's why he didn't tell anyone where he has been. But if it is because he was so badly injured, then yeah that's a good excuse and entirley not his fault.

                              I'm also interested as to what the hell is going on with Spike/Spider/Illyria. Given the cover for Issue #5 are we to assume that Spider manages to convince Spike to kill Angel, cause that's what I'm getting from the cover. And I think I remember Lynch saying in one of his podcasts that we shouldn't automatically assume that it's Illyria causing the timeshifts, when asked about them in Issue #3. Perhaps Spider is influencing Illyria's powers, perhaps she has no control?

                              Glad to see Lorne again, and boy was I surprised how nice he was to Angel. I was expecting Lorne to hate the guy given the panels we've seen of upcoming issues and his general attitude towards Angel in 'Not Fade Away' but he doesn't, and from what I've heard of the transcripts, it put a smile on my face to have Angel smile at seeing his old friend again.

                              I was also thinking Groo was gonna be against Angel too, but instead he's offering a hand which is cool, I'm glad someones on Angel's side, I was getting a little fed up with the constant nastiness towards his character but everyone else. Wonder why he looks like he did back in Pylea? Perhaps they just did that because Angel and Groo look pretty similair and it's easier to tell them apart when drawn?

                              And Gunn blowing up Wolfram and Hart.. does this mean that all of Angel's healing equipment was blown up too?

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                              • #16
                                Yeah, Angel's healing tools are toast. Raises the stakes considerably for him.

                                I'd have to look at the Issue #5 cover again, but it's possible that what Spike's holding is an iffy likeness of the Hagun shaft.

                                I'm curious about that thing... I'm going to guess that it is capable of doing a big bad zero amount of harm to a human, and that its possible being attacked with them is what's going to out Angel and put him in *real* danger.

                                I agree about the timeslips... if Spider is causing them, with Illyria being so sensitive to time and dimensions, it might be *why* she's going nuts. You remember how unhappy she was with the unexpected slipping in "Time Bomb".

                                I'm guessing Spike will fight Angel, but that they'll end up on the same side again before it's done. And with the possibility of Illyria (Beverly Hills) and Groo (de facto Silver Lake) helping Angel, it would mean civil war in Hell A.

                                It was nice to get that little "First Night" bit and see that Angel was aware, and very worried about Gunn. And almost the silliness of him being injured because he didn't know he's become human until he jumped off a 10 story building.
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                  Yeah, Angel's healing tools are toast. Raises the stakes considerably for him.
                                  Does indeed, it's going to be very interesting to see how he gets himself out of this one.

                                  I agree about the timeslips... if Spider is causing them, with Illyria being so sensitive to time and dimensions, it might be *why* she's going nuts. You remember how unhappy she was with the unexpected slipping in "Time Bomb".
                                  Agreed. But I wonder why Spider would be doing this? It'll be interesting to see what purpose she has to do something like this, unless it is simply to keep Illyria in check, by.. like you said, keeping her nuts.

                                  I'm guessing Spike will fight Angel, but that they'll end up on the same side again before it's done. And with the possibility of Illyria (Beverly Hills) and Groo (de facto Silver Lake) helping Angel, it would mean civil war in Hell A.
                                  I suspect the same thing as well. Which I'm a little tired of personally though. How many times do we need the, they appear to be on different sides but are friends again thing, before it gets stale.

                                  It was nice to get that little "First Night" bit and see that Angel was aware, and very worried about Gunn. And almost the silliness of him being injured because he didn't know he's become human until he jumped off a 10 story building.
                                  I agree, I was really pleased with that. Also means Gunn's twisted logic means he's remembered the whole thing far differently than it actually happened, or maybe just from his POV he assumed Angel forgot about him because they were seperated. But it's nice to know Angel really was concerned about Gunn after all.

                                  Got me thinking about how Gunn was sired though. If Angel didn't do it, are we thinking Spike? We know that no one is really safe when it comes to doing morally grey and questionable things in Ats, and so far Spike's remained pretty untouched, perhaps he sired Gunn?

                                  And I'm still not sure the Senior Partners are the ones who made Angel human. It seems like the obvious answer because Angel "signed" the Shanshu away, but it all seemed a little too easy and "of course" to me. I think it's natural for Wes and Angel to assume this, but wouldn't be surprised if we have a big reveal and it turns out Angel did indeed Shanshu.. perhaps because he was willing to give it up? Who knows, but I'm not ruling it out.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                    I haven't got my hands on the issue yet, but I've read the transcripts and just want to give my thoughts on a few things.

                                    Firstly, another future flash foward with now Spike in a future city. Very interesting, first Angel, now Spike. Even more interesting is that it would appear Angel never again becomes a vampire again, seeing that he's an aged man in the future, whereas Spike is still a vampire, and looks like his old self, which means Spike doesn't get the Shanshu ect. I'm also thinking that perhaps Joss and Lynch are gearing us towards 'Fray' which isn't something I'd have suspected them to do on the Ats series, but it makes more sense because they've been in a hell dimension and we know time moves differently in other dimensions. But if they really are going to the future and it is indeed 'Fray's timeline, then wow.
                                    There are a million different ways to get to that future -- so we can't draw any hard conclusions. Time might move differently and then Angel and Spike are dumped into a far future when they get out of hell-a. The scenes would then be some years (but not so many) after that, to give Angel time to age. Alternatively, Angel could be revamped by the end of this run, and then they live through centuries and he eventually shanshues to give us the future we saw. Or hell just flat out ages Angel, and when he is revamped at the end, he goes through time just looking older. Or, or, or.

                                    Secondly, still don't have much sympathy for Gunn.
                                    Easily the most tragic character in the 'verse. Try to muster up a tear or two. He had already repented of the bad move of capitulating to Wolfram and Hard in season 5 and was trying to get back to the mission (helping one person at a time). Now he's been cursed with vampirism and has become evil. I will be filled to bursting with outrage if we are expected to view him as the Big Bad and then cheer when Angel finally dispatches him at the end of the series. Gunn's fate is a tragedy, and if Angel has to dust him Angel had better slink off into the sunset knowing that Gunn and Fred and Wesley all had their lives destroyed because they made the serious mistake of befriending him.

                                    I'm also interested as to what the hell is going on with Spike/Spider/Illyria. Given the cover for Issue #5 are we to assume that Spider manages to convince Spike to kill Angel, cause that's what I'm getting from the cover. And I think I remember Lynch saying in one of his podcasts that we shouldn't automatically assume that it's Illyria causing the timeshifts, when asked about them in Issue #3. Perhaps Spider is influencing Illyria's powers, perhaps she has no control?
                                    Don't see Spike trying to kill Angel. Any more than I thought he'd ever just quit and lounge around in hell.

                                    Glad to see Lorne again, and boy was I surprised how nice he was to Angel. I was expecting Lorne to hate the guy given the panels we've seen of upcoming issues and his general attitude towards Angel in 'Not Fade Away' but he doesn't, and from what I've heard of the transcripts, it put a smile on my face to have Angel smile at seeing his old friend again.
                                    I feel cheated by this. Really quite a lot. Angel talked Lorne into being a cold-blooded assassin. No repercussions? ugh. I hope there's more to it, but am not getting any sense that there is.

                                    And Gunn blowing up Wolfram and Hart.. does this mean that all of Angel's healing equipment was blown up too?
                                    They were running low on the mojo anyway, so I don't see that this makes much difference.
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                                    • #19
                                      I get sympathizing for Gunn, but, at the same time, weren't we relieved when Gunn staked Alanna? Weren't we rooting for Angel trying to stake Darla before she could wake up as a vampire?

                                      To borrow from Gunn's own quote... the guy (Angel) knows wouldn't want this. Wouldn't want to *be* this.

                                      Anyone that's read it think that Loan Shark's boys looked like the Sunnydale swim team? That's getting a little trite if they are seriously supposed to be them.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Maggie View Post
                                        There are a million different ways to get to that future -- so we can't draw any hard conclusions. Time might move differently and then Angel and Spike are dumped into a far future when they get out of hell-a. The scenes would then be some years (but not so many) after that, to give Angel time to age. Alternatively, Angel could be revamped by the end of this run, and then they live through centuries and he eventually shanshues to give us the future we saw. Or hell just flat out ages Angel, and when he is revamped at the end, he goes through time just looking older. Or, or, or.
                                        True, I just think it's odd they chose to show us an aged Angel if we aren't supposed to expect that he therefore remains as a human now. Who knows, like you said anything could happen, and that image could have been to trick us.

                                        Easily the most tragic character in the 'verse. Try to muster up a tear or two. He had already repented of the bad move of capitulating to Wolfram and Hard in season 5 and was trying to get back to the mission (helping one person at a time). Now he's been cursed with vampirism and has become evil.
                                        I sympathise with human Gunn, he became the very thing he hated the most and as you said, felt bad about what he did. But if I understand the vamp mytho correctly vampire Gunn isn't human Gunn anymore, he can walk and talk and act like him but it isn't him, Gunn's gone.

                                        I will be filled to bursting with outrage if we are expected to view him as the Big Bad and then cheer when Angel finally dispatches him at the end of the series.
                                        Why? We know so far that he's trying to do something to kill Angel, has a device that can make all the demons follow his command which we know, he isn't going to use for good. He's just blown up Wolfram and Hart resorting in something wrong happening to Wes, and we saw him slaughter a bunch of women. He deserved to be dispatched for that.

                                        Gunn's fate is a tragedy, and if Angel has to dust him Angel had better slink off into the sunset knowing that Gunn and Fred and Wesley all had their lives destroyed because they made the serious mistake of befriending him.
                                        You can't be serious? That's like saying Willow was just in inadvertently blaming Buffy for Tara's death because she chose to befriend her, it isn't Buffy's fault Tara died. And befriending Angel, as Wes said to him in once, animated them all, gave them all a family, gave them a purpose.

                                        Don't see Spike trying to kill Angel. Any more than I thought he'd ever just quit and lounge around in hell.
                                        Like King said, I suspect it'll be another one of those things where they look like to be on the wrong side but in the end Spike chooses Angel's side again. Which like I said I'm a little tired of now.

                                        I feel cheated by this. Really quite a lot. Angel talked Lorne into being a cold-blooded assassin. No repercussions? ugh. I hope there's more to it, but am not getting any sense that there is.
                                        Perhaps Lorne, like Wes, realised that he actually made a choice and it isn't healthy to try and blame everything on Angel for a change? Personally I think it shows maturity, Angel didn't force his hand, Angel didn't force him to pull the trigger. Go Lorne.

                                        They were running low on the mojo anyway, so I don't see that this makes much difference.
                                        Yeah but I suspect every bit of mojo helps.

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