"Angel: After the Fall" Chapter 3 Discussion Thread (Biggest Spoiler Ever)

[KingofCretins]

I'm just going to lay this one out before I even discuss it. Choose carefully whether you want to wait and read it for yourself.

Spoiler:

I'm not kidding.

Spoiler:

Angel is a man. Angel is a human. It's happened. The most significant plot or character development in the history of the Buffyverse, period. There it is.

So, aside from that little point of interest, I'm very pleased to see that Spike isn't, in fact, a complete jackass at this point -- he is, in fact, closer to Connor than Angel is. And, Spider isn't evil (not that that really even rates as bad news for Spuffy fans at this point), and continues to be cool.

[Enisy]

And, Spider isn't evil (not that that really even rates as bad news for Spuffy fans at this point)

How so?

EDIT: Oh, you meant in comparison to the spoiler. Gotcha.

And OMGWTFBBQ @ spoiler, although I somehow doubt it'll be permanent.

[KingofCretins]

I don't even know what to say, Enisy. Obviously, every bit of analysis we do for the characters in all these series has changed now.

Illyria vs. the Dragon is a great little bit of fun, too. And she calls Spike on trying to watch her bathe

[Enisy]

Transcript ASAP, please. *goes down on her knees*

Spoiler:

The main reason I doubt this will be permanent? This bit from David Fury's Sacramento Q&A, back in 2005:

- David Fury pitched an ending to Joss for Angel, in which Angel wins the Shanshu and then "gives" it to Spike. This enrages Spike as not only doesn't he want it but he hates that Angel gives it to him even though he could now go to be with Buffy. Joss turned the idea down because he argued that making Spike human pretty much destroys any future for the character and he wanted to have the option to return to Spike in the future.

Same applies for Angel, one would assume.

[KingofCretins]

Enisy... spoiler tags, or there wasn't a point to mine.

Spoiler:

It is revealed at the end of the issue -- he has been maintaining the illusion that he's still a vampire, ostensibly so he's not suddenly threatened by the various demon lords in LA. It's also why he's needed so much help healing.

I seriously doubt that its a temporary thing -- they've played that card already. That was it, that was shanshu.

[Maggie]

Do we have to do the spoiler thing? I'll go ahead and do it until I'm clearer on what we're supposed to shoosh and what we can just say.

Spoiler:

Technically all we know so far is that Angel is not a vampire. Though you are right, he probably has Shanshue'd -- though I'd say that it's clearly not as some kind of 'reward'. He's contrasted negatively with Spike throughout this issue, for one thing. If it is some kind of reward, I might have to throw in the towel on the project. Cause while Angel might deserve it down the road, he does not deserve it now. Most centrally because of everything he did in NFA. But also cause he's being a total jerk now. "Shock and awe Angel" might be my favorite line. And could anybody in Hollywood describe a 'hero' using that phrase? Didn't think so.

Of course I never had any doubt that the Spike we saw in #2 was a cover for something. It was way OOC for him. As Brian posted on LJ, if he had decided to portray Spike as lounging around in hell after everything he had been through, he would be a really bad writer. The reveal that Spike is working with Connor was maybe my favorite part of that. Though I also like the clear implication that Angel likes thinking the worst of Spike because it is a way for him to avoid his own issues.

I was sorry we didn't get any Gunn scenes, though obviously that's the big deal for the next issue. I'm curious to see why Gunn would have wanted to point Angel in Spike's direction.

And, as usual, I can't quite figure out a few things. (Still not good at reading comics). In this case I wasn't quite sure what was happening with the Illyria/Fred thing and puppet thing and all of that. So assistance from people who are better at reading these books than I would be much appreciated!

The issue seems short. While I have to love the idea that Spike is a champion and pals with Connor and that Angel is totally jealous, that was really all we got here. Brief set-up for the battle with the lords. And maybe more will come up as a re-read. But mostly we are paying off the WtF scene of Spike from last issue and setting up for the next issue here. How will the battle go down. And exactly what is Angel and how did he get that way and what does it mean. And as far as I can tell, all we can do is wait and see what answers we get to those questions

[Enisy]

Yeah, the spoiler tags are kinda unnecessary, what with the "Biggest Spoiler Ever" warning on the title.

Spoiler:

I'll go ahead and repost what I said on the DH thread...

We were talking about Shanshu in the Spike/Buffy thread a while ago, and Sue said there's no quicker way to destroy Spike or Angel's characters than to make them human before Buffy or Angel is over -- and I tend to agree with her. This isn't anything like Spike getting a soul, or Buffy ceasing to be the only Slayer in the world; this is stripping away everything that makes us invested in Angel's character, everything that makes him a tragic hero. It's the endgame. Joss realized that back in 2004, when David Fury pitched him that scenario for Spike (and Spike is not even as inextricably entwined with the idea of Shanshu as Angel is) -- why would he change his mind 3-4 years later?

[KingofCretins]

I think we should do spoiler tags for any and all subjects related *specifically to that* at least for a day or so -- that's a helluva storyline to just walk over for someone who is just curious to see if people liked the art or something.

And could anybody in Hollywood describe a 'hero' using that phrase? Didn't think so.

Everybody uses that phrase -- didn't realize it had a negative connotation. It was badass at the time, and still badass. Like the playing cards, it transcended politics.

Of course I never had any doubt that the Spike we saw in #2 was a cover for something. It was way OOC for him. As Brian posted on LJ, if he had decided to portray Spike as lounging around in hell after everything he had been through, he would be a really bad writer. The reveal that Spike is working with Connor was maybe my favorite part of that. Though I also like the clear implication that Angel likes thinking the worst of Spike because it is a way for him to avoid his own issues.

I like that Spike is not just being an idiot, and I like that Angel was, in fact, screwing up his game completely. But, I also like the Spike-Illyria dynamic as well as the Spike-Spider dynamic still.

I assume Gunn set Spike up specifically for the purpose of getting he or Angel to kill each other (more on that in a second), because he is going to save Los Angeles, and that means taking out all the demons and vamps and problems. He is sort of his own version of Twilight, I think.

Spoiler:

Clearly, Gunn is another who would have no idea that Angel is human (I'm not going to assume there's double-talk in the thing about not being a vampire, I think it would be insultingly coy for them to not mean the obvious in that page. I can already hear the tromp of the Buffy/Angel 'shippers' boots, though.

Enisy, I think sue is wrong -- I don't remember when I've been more intrigued by the character.

[Nina]

Oh my ... , my brain just melted.

Spoiler:

I can't believe that they did it, I wasn't counting that there will be a moment one of the two vampires would become human again like ever ... but now ... wow, just wow.

I hope they keep it like this, I think that the stories would be really interesting with human!Angel. Angel is still the person we know and there is still guilt and brooding and I think Angel will still fight. And with Illyria, Spike, Gunn and Connor (and the 2000 slayers) ... there enough super strong fighters.

Other point, the shansue is an indication that Angel is forgiven ... how can he be forgiven in this mess?

[Maggie]

Well, the use to which the phrase is put here is consistent with the usual Hollywood view of the war. Angel's stomping in and making things worse, not better. I think that connotation is intended, and is intended to be negative. (I just moved from LA, in those circles the phrase is negative. It doesn't play the way it might in the Midwest).

The Spike-Illyria dynamic was also exactly what I expected. Still can't see why everyone jumped to the conclusion that he was her minion or something. What we see here is in continuity with the way their relationship was developing in the series. (Indeed all the Spike reveals were pretty much in line with what I expected, though I thought maybe the plot on why he was undercover would be thicker than it seems to be). Spike-Spider is still too sketchy for me to have feelings about it. But I expect she will be brought to the fore over time.

On the other topic:

Spoiler:

Agree that it is most likely Shanshu. But it can't be quite the Shanshu we might have expected -- i.e. some kind of reward. So there's still more story to be told there. Agree about the boots you hear. And who knows? Maybe Buffy the Bank Robber and Shock and Awe Angel are a really good match. Twu Wuv 4ever.

Gunn is going to go big time ballistic when he hears about this. Heaping mounds of salt into his wound. Which is another reason it would be incredibly wrong to see this as a reward.

Still inviting help on the time bendy pages. And am getting really sold on Connor's character. His voice seems really good. Indeed, the voices are really singing in my head all around.

[KingofCretins]

Connor is still my favorite character in this so far. I didn't think Spike would be Illyria's minion just her... well, pet. And she talks to him like he's her manservant or such, albeit a really poor one. I just loved that she busted him checking her out in the tub -- that *is* in character for Spike.

The time-bendy... I don't know. Illyria was a dimension jumping, time-altering demon, so maybe being in a hell dimension is bringing some of that out -- her version of what's happening to Nina.

Spoiler:

Well, they can't have her! Her and Xander have seemed so cute and couply. There won't be a way to have any 'shipping conversation now without them saying "well, it doesn't matter now since Angel's human".

I think it actually makes sense for it to be the shanshu -- whether it was the plan or not, Angel did take part in the apocalypse, did kill many demons and fiends, etc. He's satisfied ever corner of the prophecy. The fact that it happened in the context of the Senior Partners having their *own* plans for him just makes it a very Joss type of thing.

[Nina]

Can I ask something?

Did *it* happen in this issue? And how?

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

It's been true the whole time, all three issues. We just never had a reason to question it. Angel has been maintaining the image that he's a vampire, probably for his own safety. He's playing a much more dangerous version of "Guise Will Be Guise" now.

There is a reference to him needed help to heal from wounds that would "normally" be mortal before the reveal, so maybe there's something else going on here, but with him saying he's not a vampire, and with all the context built up around what that would mean, it would be a real cheap stunt to not be admitting that he's become human.

[Nina]

Thanks,

Spoiler:

I think this can be a very cool storyline. But didn't Angel fought against stong demons in the comics? I'm pretty excited about this ...

[Serafir]

I am new this board. Got my copy today after work, and headed out to the net to discuss it promptly. Found this place where people wrote with punctuation, no one-liners and decided to call it my home

Hello all! *waves*

Spoiler:

Still shocked. However: I really don`t think this will permanent, nor do I think its the Shansu in effect. Rather the opposite. I might have read the 3 issues completely wrong, but from what I have understood - there were a few weeks after the battle where Angel could not move. Where he left the others. So, where was he during that time? Chained to a wall by the senior partners perhaps? Getting a "talking to "? Cutting a deal? Why are they still protecting him I wonder, why no "bulls eye" on his back.

While I was thinking he was human first, I am not so sure anymore either. There has never been any continuity in how strong Angel is, but heading into a group of demons only carry what little strength a human has combined with some fighting prowess doesn`t come off as a wise thing to do really.(#2) If it turns out he is really only human after all that fighting of big demons with nasty heads I am going to be a bit dissapointed in the "realism" of the whole story. "Realism" here in the context of the story universe of course I am not so into the buffyverse however as many of you, but since when did a solo human (not slayer/demonthing) do their rounds and kill a dozen or more?

I am guessing (since thats what keeps me sane) some deal/contract/curse/punishment from the seniorpartners is working on Angel. He could be something demonish that is not a vampire. Illyria does however comment how he is half of what he was..

I also have this nasty feeling that the next issue will not deal with this at all, but just move Gunn along. So cruel..

[Maggie]

Connor is still my favorite character in this so far. I didn't think Spike would be Illyria's minion just her... well, pet. And she talks to him like he's her manservant or such, albeit a really poor one. I just loved that she busted him checking her out in the tub -- that *is* in character for Spike.

Key point is she may talk to him that way, but it's obvious that he isn't really that way to her. He's handling her, not serving her. I did like her call on him taking peeks. The only weakness there was that the dialogue was overly dependent on direct quotes from the series. A bit fanficy.

Spoiler:

Well, they can't have her! Her and Xander have seemed so cute and couply. There won't be a way to have any 'shipping conversation now without them saying "well, it doesn't matter now since Angel's human".

Just remind yourself that the Angel half of the transcendent ship they are swooning over has been guilty of some major dark acts. He's not the knight in shining armor that is supposed to be slotted into the fairy tale.

I think it actually makes sense for it to be the shanshu -- whether it was the plan or not, Angel did take part in the apocalypse, did kill many demons and fiends, etc. He's satisfied ever corner of the prophecy. The fact that it happened in the context of the Senior Partners having their *own* plans for him just makes it a very Joss type of thing.

Agree it makes sense for it to be the Shanshu. My point is that we are going to HAVE to learn that the Shanshu didn't mean what we thought. It did always talk about a vampire playing an ambiguous role in the apocalypse. But that undercuts the common idea that the Shanshu is supposed to be a 'reward'. Angel does not, at this juncture, "deserve" any kind of reward. So the Shanshu has apparently been delivered in a way that deconstructs our understanding of what it was supposed to be about. Maybe this is just my way of saying it's a "very Joss type of thing."

[Maggie]

I do have to point out one glaring continuity error. The flashback to Angel in the distant past is all wrong -- namely his hair actually looks attractive. What happened to the fugly wig?

[Nina]

No ugly wig? Did he had a fake accent at least?

Hello Serafir. *waves back*

Spoiler:

I'm also confused with the Shansue, what's the point of it when it isn't a reward? It's weird to make a vampire human, only because he created a big mess. And wasn't the shansue about the biggest apocalypse *ever*? Is this it? So many questions ... but I like this. It's a big thing and clearly Angel isn't some weak poor human man.

[Serafir]

Spoiler:

... In this case I wasn't quite sure what was happening with the Illyria/Fred thing and puppet thing and all of that. So assistance from people who are better at reading these books than I would be much appreciated!

Spoiler:

I think it refers to the effect Illyria had on time in "Time Bomb" from Season 5. Hell seems to have strange effects on demons. It doesn`t seem to be controlled by her however, very much the same way it played out in that episode. Or maybe it`s Angel doing it.

[Maggie]

Looking back at it, it would seem that somehow Illyria's presence was making time go bendy for Angel. Will have to ponder if there's any point to that. Besides showing Angel with nice long hair for a change.