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  • Lindsay execution in NFA

    The subject is touched in the 'Could Angel have known? *A:AtF Spoilers*' thread. And I saw it before in some threads, and I think it's important enough for an own thread.

    So, Lorne killed Lindsay because Angel asked him to do that.

    Angel scene with Lindsay in NFA:
    Originally posted by buffyworld
    LINDSEY
    You gotta be joking. Why on God's green and verdant Earth would I trust you, huh? Or you, me?

    ANGEL
    'Cause it's not about us, Lindsey. It's about them. The wolf. The ram. The hart. The ones we've been fighting against forever.

    LINDSEY
    You can't beat 'em.

    ANGEL
    Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so remarkably strong.

    LINDSEY
    (stands)
    You're not talking about the kind of strength human beings have.
    (sits on the edge of the table)
    This is not about coveting your neighbor's ass, your buddy's job, the last Mallomar in the box. You're talking about fighting flesh and something that passes for blood demons with enormous power, and they will mow you down.

    ANGEL
    Maybe... but I keep thinking that once this world was theirs and now it's not.

    LINDSEY
    Isn't it?

    ANGEL
    Give me the hell on Earth speech, Lindsey. I know how bad things are, how much sway the demons hold. I happen to be the greatest mass murderer you've ever met.

    LINDSEY
    Never given you props for that, have I?

    ANGEL
    There's always going to be power, and there's always going to be corruption.

    LINDSEY
    So again I ask you-

    ANGEL
    'Cause it's not what I'm expected to do. 'Cause you're good in a fight. And let's say we come up rolling 7s and this does go our way. We tear up this firm, someone's going to have to step in. I know that's what you want. Now, I'm a lot more comfortable with the thought of you in that position than anyone else.

    LINDSEY
    The devil you know.

    ANGEL
    That'd be you.

    LINDSEY
    And what if you roll snake eyes?

    ANGEL
    You'll talk your way out of it. You'll tell them I forced you to help me. Tell them I made my scary face.

    LINDSEY
    Believe it or not, I was actually talking about you. You don't care about being squashed like a bug?

    ANGEL
    You haven't heard a word I've said. For, like, years back.

    LINDSEY
    Well, you get a little speechy, all right? And I breeze out. I got the Cliff Notes-honor and humanity. Absolute good. I heard it. So here's the plot twist-I'm in.

    ANGEL
    Why?

    LINDSEY
    Everybody goes on about your soul. Vampire with a soul. Nobody ever mentions the fact that you're really a vampire with big brass testes. This is gonna be a circus. I mean, win or lose, you're about to pick the nastiest fight since mankind drop-kicked the last demon out of this dimension. And that you don't do without me. If you want me, I'm on your team.

    ANGEL
    I want you, Lindsey.
    (beat)
    I'm thinking about rephrasing that.

    LINDSEY
    Yeah, I think I'd be more comfortable if you did.
    (turns away)


    and the scene with Lorne:

    Originally posted by Buffyworld
    LINDSEY
    Those guys were chumps.

    LORNE
    Now they're chunks. Demon strength or no, you're quite the master swordsman.

    LINDSEY
    Well, I couldn't have done it without that high note in MacArthur Park.

    LORNE
    Slays 'em every time.

    LINDSEY
    Any word on the rest of the team?

    LORNE
    For all I know, we are the rest of the team. I haven't heard squat.

    LINDSEY
    That's weird.
    (turns off the water)

    LORNE
    They'll call.

    LINDSEY
    (dries his hands)
    No, I mean me saying "team" and meaning it. I kind of like the feeling.

    LORNE
    Yeah, today.

    LINDSEY
    You really done with them?

    LORNE
    It isn't my kind of work anymore. It's unsavory.

    LINDSEY
    Gee, I think it's just getting interesting.

    LORNE
    Yeah, I bet you do.

    LINDSEY
    You don't trust me. You don't think a man can change?

    LORNE
    It's not about what I think. This was Angel's plan.
    (sighs)

    LINDSEY
    Come on.
    (smiles)
    I could sing for you.

    LORNE
    I've heard you sing.
    (takes out a gun with a silencer and shoots Lindsey twice in the chest)

    LINDSEY
    (stumbling back, looking at his wounds, then at Lorne)
    Why-why did you...

    LORNE
    One last job. You're not part of the solution, Lindsey. You never will be.

    LINDSEY
    (points at Lorne)
    You kill me?
    (collapses to the floor)
    A flunky?! I'm not just... Angel...kills me. You don't... Angel...
    (his rapid breathing comes to an end as his body goes limp)

    LORNE
    (sighs, looks down)
    Good night, folks.
    (drops gun on floor as he walks out)


    So what do you think? Did Lorne saw something when Lindsay sang for Lorne? Did Angel the right thing or did he went too far?

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I don't know, of course I'm against killing people in general (and against deathpenalty), but this is not my world or life. And I think that we, in 12 seasons of Buffyverse, saw enough to know that you have sometimes to kill for your own safety (Giles who killed Ben, Buffy killed those knights, Angel who killed that guy in 5x01). And I think this is part of that same category. Lindsay isn't some innocent guy who can't hurt you. Lindsay is ready to kill them all if it's in his advantage. Was the execution cold and unfair? Yes, but that's the whole problem with Angel in season 5. He was on his way to become dark season 2!Angel again. He wasn't wrong, but lost his touch with his own humanity ... again. It's similar to the way he locked the lawyers in with Darla and Drusilla in season 2, questionable and very grey ... but it had to happen because being human doesn't make you a 'good' guy and the evil humans are just as dangerous as the evil demons. To kill or be killed.

    And I think that Lorne saw something when Lindsay sang. And I think that Lorne on that moment saw that Lindsay isn't one to save. Lindsay always wanted to be important, to have power. And I think that Lindsay will do everything to get that. He isn't the young lawyer of season 1/2 anymore, Lindsay is now bitter and harsh. He returned to LA because he hated Angel (and W&H) and because he wanted power. Yes he is human, yes he did some good things ... but I think that is song made Lorne see that Lindsay isn't better as the most demons without a soul.

    Another point which I think is interesting, is the lack of suprise by Lindsay when he was killed. Yes he was suprised/shocked that it was Lorne, but not that Angel wanted him death, only did Lindsay probably imagine a great fight with the famous Angel as the one who would kill him. It seemed that Lindsay was already thinking about his death, I would like to know what he really thought about it.
    Last edited by Nina; 15-01-08, 07:34 PM.


  • #2
    Angel was wrong. Not because Lindsey wasn't evil and wasn't still possibly dangerous, but because he hadn't become a threat *yet*, and was, in fact, considering turning around. For the second time, Angel abandoned him coldly when he was at a crossroads.

    But, Angel also intentionally lured Drogyn into a trap and ultimately killed him -- an ally and another champion -- just to sell the cover of the plan that he developed unilaterally. So his execution of Lindsey was hardly the worst of what he did and was willing to do.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      Angel was wrong. Not because Lindsey wasn't evil and wasn't still possibly dangerous, but because he hadn't become a threat *yet*, and was, in fact, considering turning around. For the second time, Angel abandoned him coldly when he was at a crossroads.

      But, Angel also intentionally lured Drogyn into a trap and ultimately killed him -- an ally and another champion -- just to sell the cover of the plan that he developed unilaterally. So his execution of Lindsey was hardly the worst of what he did and was willing to do.
      Firstly, Lorne knew that Lindsey was never gonna be "part of the solution" and in Lorne we trust. He would never do such a thing without knowing Lindsey was a lost case.
      Secondly, Angel didn't lure Drogyn into a trap to kill him. He wanted Drogyn to come to make everyone think Angel killed Fred on purpose. Killing him was actually the only option right there, right then, otherwise both of them would've ended up dead. It's just the fact that he did it with hardly any hesitation that's the problem.
      It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank, without passion, we'd be truly dead.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        Angel was wrong. Not because Lindsey wasn't evil and wasn't still possibly dangerous, but because he hadn't become a threat *yet*, and was, in fact, considering turning around. For the second time, Angel abandoned him coldly when he was at a crossroads.

        But the moment Lindsay becomes a threat, it's already too late. Angel knew that it wasn't an 'if' but a 'when'. And Lindsay had to be gone before he would turn against them. And I don't know if Angel really abandoned him, in season 1 and 2 Lindsay picks his own way and there is not much Angel can do, Lindsay doesn't want his help.

        I agree with Shin about Drogyn btw, Angel didn't want Drogyn dead and he didn't plan it ... the circle made him do it. Yes, it was Angel's stupid plan, but he didn't knew that it would cost Drogyn his life.

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        • #5
          Angel's charge as a champion is not to field marshal morality in advance, not to be "Minority Report", as mentioned on the other thread. He is supposed to protect the world from the threats that manifest. Firefighters don't go running around spraying down buildings and kicking in doors and breaking windows where a fire *might* start... and sometimes it is too late, but they are there to respond, not to rule and oversee.

          I think murdering Lindsey (for such it was) was emblematic of just how far Angel had gotten away from who he was supposed to be, proof of the harm his time at W&H had done to him.

          Lorne mentioned having heard Lindsey sing, but I don't think that was meant as a line to validate Angel's plan but just Lorne's own cynicism at that point.

          I don't particularly care if killing Drogyn was the right thing for Angel's plan. It was the wrong thing in general. And, he wouldn't have been there to be captured and feasted upon if Angel hadn't exploited him in the first place. Angel *is* responsible for everything that happened to Drogyn. I'd have rather Angel chosen to stand and be true side by side with Drogyn against hopeless odds there amongst the Circle and be killed rather than murder him to advance his eventual complete failure of a plan.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
            Angel's charge as a champion is not to field marshal morality in advance, not to be "Minority Report", as mentioned on the other thread. He is supposed to protect the world from the threats that manifest. Firefighters don't go running around spraying down buildings and kicking in doors and breaking windows where a fire *might* start... and sometimes it is too late, but they are there to respond, not to rule and oversee.

            I think murdering Lindsey (for such it was) was emblematic of just how far Angel had gotten away from who he was supposed to be, proof of the harm his time at W&H had done to him.

            Lorne mentioned having heard Lindsey sing, but I don't think that was meant as a line to validate Angel's plan but just Lorne's own cynicism at that point.

            I don't particularly care if killing Drogyn was the right thing for Angel's plan. It was the wrong thing in general. And, he wouldn't have been there to be captured and feasted upon if Angel hadn't exploited him in the first place. Angel *is* responsible for everything that happened to Drogyn. I'd have rather Angel chosen to stand and be true side by side with Drogyn against hopeless odds there amongst the Circle and be killed rather than murder him to advance his eventual complete failure of a plan.

            I agree with you about that Angel was somewhere he shouldn't be. That he was not the person he should be and that his plan was stupid. And I feel bad for Drogyn and I think that Angel should have fought the right fight with Drogyn. And Angel is responsible for the death of Drogyn and there is no way to deny that. But in NFA, Angel wasn't fighting the good fight but the big fight. And in that episode, in that (wrong) place on that moment ... Angel did the right thing IMO. He was rude and arrogant, but right.

            Does he have the right to judge and execute? I think that he should do that, if that needs to happen. Lindsay needed to be killed to save others. The moment Angel will find out that Lindsay turned against him, there will probably be a (innocent) victim already. Buffy believes that she doesn't have that right, and she is right ... she isn't god and neither is Angel. But sometimes it has to happen, when Buffy let Ben live in 'the gift', it was noble but also irresponsible and stupid. Those decisions have to be made and Angel did that. Lindsay didn't want to be helped, he didn't want to be a good guy ... he wanted power and to get there he would kill people. What if Angel let Lindsay live and Lindsay would kill Connor or random girl #47 ... those death's would be Angel's fault.

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            • #7
              Lorne mentioned having heard Lindsey sing, but I don't think that was meant as a line to validate Angel's plan but just Lorne's own cynicism at that point.
              I believe Lorne when he says this: (especially when he says that he's heard him sing)
              Spoiler:
              LORNE
              One last job. You're not part of the solution, Lindsey. You never will be.
              It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank, without passion, we'd be truly dead.

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              • #8
                I'm not sure if you hear the resonance of that line by Lorne -- but it's not a good one. "You're not part of the solution" is what the revolutionaries say when they start killing people who are not actively for them (though also not actively against them). I mean the bad kind of revolutionaries: Pol Pot sort of thing. It's NOT a good thing for a good guy to be saying.

                Also, Lorne feels sick at heart for what he has done -- and he quits team Angel because of it. Again, clear signals that we are not supposed to find ways to justify this.

                NFA was cool because we had a guy in all the heroic trappings do some really terrible things. I agree with King that killing Drogyn was the worst. I might even say that leading his team members into a fruitless suicidal battle would be second -- cause those dead team members could have been out there doing something actually helpful -- you know, helping the helpless one person at a time. Third would be the cold-blooded execution of Lindsey. King has ably articulated why that was a terrible thing.

                As for the battle -- it's really, really important to notice that the apocalypse in this case isn't the world ending in a ball of flames. It's the world going on AS IT IS -- with the usual crap that humans dole out to each other. You might be able to make a case for killing one innocent, one less than innocent, and committing suicide in order to prevent the world from ending. You cannot make the case that such acts are in any way good when you're purpose is to protest the world AS IT IS. Cause you really can't fight evil by doing more evil. Indeed, it's ANGEL who becomes part of the problem when he decides to do evil acts in order to fight evil the kind of evil he's fighting here.

                The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And given where the comic books have gone, that is literally true for Angel. His lesson is going to be to learn how to fight the good fight in a good way. In a way that is built on hope rather than despair.

                NFA gave us the model of that, by the way. Gunn spent his day with Anne, who was just out there helping the people she could. That's the way you fight the sort of evil Angel was fighting here. That's what Angel needs to get back to.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                  Angel's charge as a champion is not to field marshal morality in advance, not to be "Minority Report", as mentioned on the other thread. He is supposed to protect the world from the threats that manifest. Firefighters don't go running around spraying down buildings and kicking in doors and breaking windows where a fire *might* start... and sometimes it is too late, but they are there to respond, not to rule and oversee.
                  I'm not sure I agree entirely with that. If I knew someone was destined to be evil, who would turn on me (with the power of Wolfram and Hart behind him, which is something Lindsey was supposed to have after this plan) I'd without a doubt, take out that opponent first. Lorne has the ability to see people's destiny's, and IMO Angel should use that to his advantage, wether it be finding his own destiny or uncovering someone else's.

                  Lorne mentioned having heard Lindsey sing, but I don't think that was meant as a line to validate Angel's plan but just Lorne's own cynicism at that point.
                  I interpreted it like the others. If Lorne was truly cynical of what Angel had asked him to do, if he didn't believe what he was saying, I don't believe he would have done it. Lorne had the strength to walk away, I believe if he didn't believe in what he had to do, he would have refused.

                  I don't particularly care if killing Drogyn was the right thing for Angel's plan. It was the wrong thing in general. And, he wouldn't have been there to be captured and feasted upon if Angel hadn't exploited him in the first place. Angel *is* responsible for everything that happened to Drogyn.
                  Angel is in part responsible for everything that happened to Drogyn. Hamilton, the Circle- they are too.

                  I'd have rather Angel chosen to stand and be true side by side with Drogyn against hopeless odds there amongst the Circle and be killed rather than murder him to advance his eventual complete failure of a plan.
                  I disagree. I thought part of the plans failure to you was that it was a suicidal mission, so how would have this other alternative benefited anyone if Angel out of principle would have gone out fighting without achieving anything at all, or at least without the chance to attempt to achieve anything?

                  Originally posted by Maggie View Post
                  I'm not sure if you hear the resonance of that line by Lorne -- but it's not a good one. "You're not part of the solution" is what the revolutionaries say when they start killing people who are not actively for them (though also not actively against them). I mean the bad kind of revolutionaries: Pol Pot sort of thing. It's NOT a good thing for a good guy to be saying.
                  That's ignoring the verse we are playing in though. The verse in which Lorne is a demon and has the ability to read people's futures and destiny, we have to take that into account.

                  Also, Lorne feels sick at heart for what he has done -- and he quits team Angel because of it. Again, clear signals that we are not supposed to find ways to justify this.
                  For a show that deals in grey pretty much always, I think we are. Perhaps not even justify it but reason it. Lorne shouldn't feel good about what he did, but that also doesn't mean what he did wasn't the right thing to do, or at least what was needed.

                  I might even say that leading his team members into a fruitless suicidal battle would be second -- cause those dead team members could have been out there doing something actually helpful -- you know, helping the helpless one person at a time.
                  Well they couldn't because they were trapped at Wolfram and Hart. Which is one of the reasons they had to do this in the first place.

                  As for the battle -- it's really, really important to notice that the apocalypse in this case isn't the world ending in a ball of flames. It's the world going on AS IT IS -- with the usual crap that humans dole out to each other. You might be able to make a case for killing one innocent, one less than innocent, and committing suicide in order to prevent the world from ending. You cannot make the case that such acts are in any way good when you're purpose is to protest the world AS IT IS. Cause you really can't fight evil by doing more evil. Indeed, it's ANGEL who becomes part of the problem when he decides to do evil acts in order to fight evil the kind of evil he's fighting here.
                  I wouldn't say evil acts. His plan was to take out the circle, the very group that makes evil work. I wouldn't call that evil. His decisions were grey, but I think it'd be oversimplifying it to say they were evil just because by definition- murder is evil, when we know in this verse things aren't always that simple.

                  NFA gave us the model of that, by the way. Gunn spent his day with Anne, who was just out there helping the people she could. That's the way you fight the sort of evil Angel was fighting here. That's what Angel needs to get back to.
                  I kind of agree with both Angel in 'Reprise' and Buffy in 'Chosen' a little.

                  When Buffy says;

                  "I'm finishing this once and for all" she is right about doing this. Kind of like saying Buffy would be wrong to ever try and close the Hellmouth once and for all. Instead she should have fought evil one at a time, she should have never won. I see both sides of the argument but trying to take out evil once and for all isn't such a bad thing either.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nina View Post

                    Yes, but that's the whole problem with Angel in season 5. He was on his way to become dark season 2!Angel again. He wasn't wrong, but lost his touch with his own humanity ... again. It's similar to the way he locked the lawyers in with Darla and Drusilla in season 2, questionable and very grey ... but it had to happen because being human doesn't make you a 'good' guy and the evil humans are just as dangerous as the evil demons. To kill or be killed.
                    I find Angel kinda gray throughout whole season 5, just remember how the season starts out. For 4 seasons he has been reluctant to kill humans, and then in the first episode of season 5 he has no problem what so ever. Those around him doesn`t even question his actions at all. It was Joss who wrote and directed this episode, and I must confess I sometimes wonder how conscious a decision that was. Even though the line "You saw the last of it." kinda sets up the season a bit in that regard.

                    First day in the new office and the whole gang has already changed... To fight the bad guys they become the bad guys, that`s the whole slippery slope of the whole season - and Drogyn and Lindsey is part of that. It`s morally wrong in both cases, even if you understand the reasoning behind it. Angel IS wrong, so are the rest of the crew - and only Lorne reacts to it.

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