Could Angel have known? *A:AtF Spoilers*

[Shin]

My question is: Could Angel have known that Wolfram & Hart would send LA to hell? Because some people seem to think that was logical. I think that's just because that's what they did and in retrospect it's like "Yeah, they're evil, of course they'd do that, stupid Angel!" But I think it isn't that logical at all, in fact especially Angel had enough reason to believe they wouldn't do anything to the innocent people, at least not like this. Think of the episode "Reprise":

Spoiler:

Holland: "Well, this is exciting, isn't it? (Smiles) Going straight to the source. - So, what's the big plan, Angel? Destroy the Senior Partners, smash Wolfram and Hart once and for all?"
Angel: "Something like that."
Holland: "Hm-mm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish? In the end, I mean."
Angel: "It'll be - the end."
Holland: "Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense."
Angel: "In the larger sense I really don't give a crap."
Holland: "Now I don't think that's true. - Be honest. - You got the tiniest bit of 'give a crap' left. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on this Kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something - in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you're supposed to prevent. Now what was that?"
Angel: "The apocalypse."
Holland: "Yes, the apocalypse, of course. - Another one of those. Well, it's true. We do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely. I wasn't thinking. - Of course all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but, hey, it's always something, isn't it?"
The elevator shaft and cable dissolve as the elevator continues to plummet into a hellish red glow.
Angel: "You're not gonna win."
Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"
Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.
Angel: "Then why?"
Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"
Angel: "Why fight?"
Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."
And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.
The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.
Holland: "Welcome to the home office."
Angel: "This isn't..."
Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."
The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it.
Holland calling after him as the doors close: "Have a nice day."

After that speech and all WR&H had done before that, it seems actually logical that they'd target Angel and the ones close to him. Those are the ones he cares most about and don't all matter to them anyway. WR&H were always about corrupting people, not killing them let alone send them to hell.

[KingofCretins]

Could have have foreseen that specifically? No. Could he (and did he) reasonably foresee serious consequences? Yes. In fact, he explicitly admitted he expected the Senior Partners to bring their full weight down upon them.

Angel: We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to... 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us.

There are theories under which as long as harm itself is reasonably foreseeable, the specific form and scope of that harm is irrelevant.

If you want a reason Angel should feel responsible, it's not because LA was sent to hell. It's because of that scene with Holland Manners in "Reprise". Angel already *knew* that there was no fight with W&H, and that, therefore, grand gestures of warfare were meaningless in opposing them. He *knew* that carrying out his mission that way had brought only failure and despair. In other words, he *knew* there was nothing meaningful to gain by taking out the Circle.

[Shin]

Could have have foreseen that specifically? No. Could he (and did he) reasonably foresee serious consequences? Yes. In fact, he explicitly admitted he expected the Senior Partners to bring their full weight down upon them.



There are theories under which as long as harm itself is reasonably foreseeable, the specific form and scope of that harm is irrelevant.

If you want a reason Angel should feel responsible, it's not because LA was sent to hell. It's because of that scene with Holland Manners in "Reprise". Angel already *knew* that there was no fight with W&H, and that, therefore, grand gestures of warfare were meaningless in opposing them. He *knew* that carrying out his mission that way had brought only failure and despair. In other words, he *knew* there was nothing meaningful to gain by taking out the Circle.

I agree that he is responsible, but less so than he would be had he known that they were gonna do something like this. My problem is the fact that some people I've talked to seem to think it's all his fault. I think fault is the wrong word. I think Angel thought they were gonna attack specificly them, the Fang Gang. WR&H would have the power to take him and the Fang Gang out, only them, not the rest of LA. The reason Angel was fighting WR&H again, even though fighting fighting them was impossible, was, I think, that the CotBT was finally a physical thing he could fight against in WR&H. He thought, if I kill them I could make a gigantic difference. I do think he still made a difference, for the rest of the world though, not LA. (Well for LA too, although not positively). He thought that if he killed the people in the Circle, he could finally weaken WR&H where it does hurt.

[Nina]

I think that Angel could have known that the senior Partners would do something like this. He couldn't know what they would do, but he knew that something would happen (see his speech on the end of season 5). This is the point what makes the NFA plan kind of stupid. It was a nice idea, but Angel is smart enough to know that he has to pay. And to make Angel pay, you hurt what he loves and values the most ... humanity.

Is he resposible? yes he is. He knew what could happen but he didn't thought about it ... Is he the only responsible one? No, his team is also to blame. I think that the whole fang gang is resposible and not just Angel because he made the plan. The agreed, they killed the CotBT and they didn't stop the plan.

[Shin]

I think that Angel could have known that the senior Partners would do something like this. He couldn't know what they would do, but he knew that something would happen (see his speech on the end of season 5). This is the point what makes the NFA plan kind of stupid. It was a nice idea, but Angel is smart enough to know that he has to pay. And to make Angel pay, you hurt what he loves and values the most ... humanity.

Is he resposible? yes he is. He knew what could happen but he didn't thought about it ... Is he the only responsible one? No, his team is also to blame. I think that the whole fang gang is resposible and not just Angel because he made the plan. The agreed, they killed the CotBT and they didn't stop the plan.

It just doesn't seem a very WR&H thing to do. Their motto is "Why kill when you can corrupt/torture." I don't blame Angel for thinking they would take personal revenge, try to kill Connor or something, but sending LA in to hell should come very unlikely for Angel. We stand further away from it all, but I can really imagine Angel thinking that they would just try to kill Angel and his gang, not take the whole of LA with him. It was a rather rash and foolish thing to do, but he couldn't expect such consequences.

[Nina]

I don't know if it a weird thing to do for W&H. In season 2 they told Angel that there was no winning or losing for them. And however the gods can't be beaten, I think they can lose. They wanted to kidnap Connor and Darla, and Angel stopped that, they wanted Angelus and Angel never gave in and I think that the senior partners believed that they had control over Angel ... they owned the vampire who is (probably) the key in the greatest (final?) apocalypse ever.

Their interest in Angel is pretty interesting. They are gods who have power in lots of dimensions. Still, they spend lots of time and money in Angel. They don't want him dead, they want him on their side. I think that Angel is important for them and as long Angel isn't in their power, they can't win. Angel makes the difference in that apocalypse, his side wins (?)*. And I believe because that they want that apocalypse to happen ... if it doesn't happen they lose.

BTW, I don't know if the story in Reprise was a true story, it could be a lie to turn Angel (and the plan worked, Angel gave up in Reprise).


edit:
*: I was thinking about the apocalypse in the Bible. In the 'verse there are already many references to the Christianity. So why not this one.
There are big roles for the Antichrist and the Christ. There will be a fight between those two. What if Angelus is the Antichrist and Angel the Christ? One person who makes the difference because of who he is. It can be a reason why W&H never tried to kill him and why they spend so much time in turning Angel evil.

[patxshand]

I can't see Joss doing a Christian allegory to *that* extent, what with his outspoken atheistic beliefs. And, in response to the main topic of this thread, there is no way in hell (ehehehe) that Angel could have known. Eight seasons worth of character development for that character tell us that he would never allow his city to go to Hell so he could make a stand.

[KingofCretins]

I agree with Pat -- Joss isn't going to go with an overt Christian allegory (although there have been many incidentally Christian overtones to his shows).

But, I have to say again -- Angel *did* know enough to know that his stand wouldn't mean anything, and said as much going in. That alone was reason enough to come up with something different.

[Nina]

I don't know, Buffy does have some similairities with Jesus. But It was just an idea btw, I was trying to figure out why W&H never killed Angel. He must be pretty annoying for them.

And why they didn't do something different ... because their plan wasn't doomed. The idea was making a stand, and they made one. It wasn't smart to do, but I don't know what else you can do against gods in some other dimension.

[KingofCretins]

I don't buy into the Senior Partners being quite that big of a deal. Their biggest weapon against them is Illyria, who presumably actually has some real insights into them (although it was Knox she mentioned that to, and Wes killed him) if they ever realize to ask. No reason to think it would have occured to her to volunteer it.

There may be meaningful ways to oppose them, perhaps even defeat them -- but there are clearly no shortcuts. Angel tried to find one in Season 2 and in Season 5, both with pretty abysmal results for him and those around him.

[sueworld]

I don't know, Buffy does have some similairities with Jesus. But It was just an idea btw, I was trying to figure out why W&H never killed Angel. He must be pretty annoying for them.

From what I gather the reason why they were under strict instructions not to kill him was that they thought they needed him for the coming battle.

They knew about the prophecy of a souled vampire who would pick a side and have great influence on the final outcome. They wanted to shape Angel into being 'their' creature and have him choose the path of evil, rather then of good.

[stormwreath]

All I know is this: *I* never anticipated that the Senior Partners would punish Angel by lashing out randomly at an unconnected group of innocent people. Why would they? W&H are a business; there's no percentage in indiscriminate destruction and carnage.

Unless, of course, destroying the Black Thorn really did wreck all their operations on Earth, so they thought there was no point carrying on and they may as well send the whole place to Hell. Divesting an unprofitable asset, so to speak.

[sueworld]

Well I saw it as the ultimate punishment for Angel. To be surrounded on a day to day basis by the victims of his own 'folly'. A permanent reminder of his failure.

What a great way of beating him and his old team down.

[vampmogs]

Brian Lynch answered a question recently and he said from memory, that no, Angel couldn't have known Wolfram and Hart would do this.

Angel knew that they were going to pay, he made that clear to everyone. He went as far as saying that when the dust clears it is very likely they won't be there. But no I don't think he expected Wolfram and Hart to do this, I actually agree with those saying it is a little OOC for the firm to do such a thing. They were never into big grand gestures, never cared about winning. I think Angel suspected they'd all pay but after they were dead business would resume as usual.

[KingofCretins]

From what I gather the reason why they were under strict instructions not to kill him was that they thought they needed him for the coming battle.

They knew about the prophecy of a souled vampire who would pick a side and have great influence on the final outcome. They wanted to shape Angel into being 'their' creature and have him choose the path of evil, rather then of good.

Generally geekish question, does anyone know exactly when the Shanshu prophecy was sort of retconned to include the Troachlan (sp) prophecy?

The Shanshu prophecy originally said that a vampire with a soul would defeat a lot of demons and fiends and would shanshu, live and die, become human. It was found in the Scrolls of Aberjian, which Angel stole from W&H.

Now, the Troachlan was what introduced the "we don't know if it will be good or evil" element, with the possibility that it might be the ruination of mankind. This is found in the Naiazean prophecy, which is, unless I'm missing an episode, not the same scroll or prophecy.

But, at some point, the Shanshu sort of started to encompass both ideas. When was that?

Storm, I don't think that they were dumping assets, because losing the Circle would have been a global effect, not a local one. Personally, I have always just assumed that their demonic hordes cleaned out the old office and the Partners quickly began installing a new circle.

[Nina]

I don't know about the Shansue, I just assumed that it was one prophecy and that Wesley wasn't that far with translating it in season 1. Where are they mentioning the Troachlan prophecy?

Other question (maybe OT):
What about Spikes role in the apocalypse and shansue? for 4 years Angel was the vampire with a soul, and he is the one who should be the key in the apocalypse and he is the one who would shansue. But now there is Spike ...

[vampmogs]

Other question (maybe OT):
What about Spikes role in the apocalypse and shansue? for 4 years Angel was the vampire with a soul, and he is the one who should be the key in the apocalypse and he is the one who would shansue. But now there is Spike ...

I always saw it as Angel's gig, it just makes sense to me. Angel is the one the PTB chose, the one Wolfram and Hart believed is the pivotal part to the apocalypse, even after Spike was brought back. Angel walked past the Shanshu in 'Blind Date,' stopped and sensed it, he was drawn to it. And then as King points out on an unrelated topic, the Shanshu is related to the Trochlan prophecies, which if I'm not mistaken (might want to check this) related to Connor. To close of a connection there so it makes sense to me.

I never even saw it as a thing that could relate to either vamp. People have stated because Angel signed it away in 'Not Fade Away' it is now Spikes. I never saw it like that, the prophecy IMO was always related to only one vamp, it isn't a contest it has already been decided. So I think you either have to say Spike or Angel, I don't think it is something which is up for grabs to either of them. One of them is destined to be that vamp regardless of the other one being there, I just happen to think that vamp is Angel.

[Shin]

Brian Lynch answered a question recently and he said from memory, that no, Angel couldn't have known Wolfram and Hart would do this.

That's kind of the reason I started the topic, when he said that, it made me think about it again.

Generally geekish question, does anyone know exactly when the Shanshu prophecy was sort of retconned to include the Troachlan (sp) prophecy?

If I remember correctly, I think it was in S3 in the episode where Holtz arrived.

I always saw it as Angel's gig, it just makes sense to me. Angel is the one the PTB chose, the one Wolfram and Hart believed is the pivotal part to the apocalypse, even after Spike was brought back. Angel walked past the Shanshu in 'Blind Date,' stopped and sensed it, he was drawn to it. And then as King points out on an unrelated topic, the Shanshu is related to the Trochlan prophecies, which if I'm not mistaken (might want to check this) related to Connor. To close of a connection there so it makes sense to me.

I never even saw it as a thing that could relate to either vamp. People have stated because Angel signed it away in 'Not Fade Away' it is now Spikes. I never saw it like that, the prophecy IMO was always related to only one vamp, it isn't a contest it has already been decided. So I think you either have to say Spike or Angel, I don't think it is something which is up for grabs to either of them. One of them is destined to be that vamp regardless of the other one being there, I just happen to think that vamp is Angel.

I agree on both accounts. In Season 1 of Angel it was very clear that the prophecy was about him, not only because it talked about a vampire with a soul, but the fact that he was drawn to it and his connection with the powers. Then the other prophecy is added in S3 and Angel is involved with almost all of the things predicted there. Also I don't think that if Angel really lost the shanshu there (which I don't entirely buy, because how can WR&H have any power over that + how in a contract?) it automatically goes to Spike. It's meant for Angel if it is meant for Angel and meant for Spike, if for Spike. But it's not a second prize thing, when Angel quits, Spike becomes the winner and gets it. (or the other way around).

[vampmogs]

Yeah I never quite understood the contract, neat idea but it didn't really work for me. If anything I thought signing the contract in your own blood would be signing yourself to the Shanshu, not the reverse. I'm not really sure how signing the prophecy some how made you incapable of fufilling it. Usually it is the other way with these things, as for example how Lilah had to sign all her contracts with blood at Wolfram and Hart.

[Shin]

Yeah I never quite understood the contract, neat idea but it didn't really work for me. If anything I thought signing the contract in your own blood would be signing yourself to the Shanshu, not the reverse. I'm not really sure how signing the prophecy some how made you incapable of fufilling it. Usually it is the other way with these things, as for example how Lilah had to sign all her contracts with blood at Wolfram and Hart.

I think the signing-away was there for Angel to believe, because he thinks the Circle is all-powerfull and that WR&H had that contract prepared for a long time, because of their plans with him. But I think it's there for us not to believe, but just see Angel giving up what he wants the most for the greater good, which ended on a less greater good note.