Season 4 discussions

[ciderdrinker]

It seems it's been a very long time since we've had any in depth discussions on one of the most debated seasons of the show, so I thought I'd start one.

I have some problems with the plotting of this season. There are some weak answers to some of the questions raised earlier in the season, and some of them aren't answered at all. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Charisma Carpenter didn't tell the writers & producers about her pregnancy till a bit too late in the day and some hasty re-writes of the season arc had to be changed to fit it in, but I'm still not altogether happy with the way it played out. For example:-

Why did Cordelia come back from a higher plane? It's stated by Skip that this was planned all along to facilitate the birth of Jasmine, and that her ascension was part of this, as was her becoming part demon, and even earlier inheriting the visions from Doyle, but this smacks to me of him messing with their heads rather than the actual truth.

Why was Angelus "crucial" to FauxCordy's plan? This is never really explained, except for the line about it being mis-direction. In the scenes with Willow, FauxCordy is prepared to try and kill her to stop her re-ensouling Angel, but it was all a fake-out? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Why have the Beast, block out the sun and bring about the Rain of Fire? The short answer given is that it was Jasmine's birthing pains. WTF? It seems more likely that these events were conspired to bring Cordy and Connor to a place that would involve their making with the naked love, but even then that happened before the blocking out of the sun. So why bring about eternal darkness and make the plan much more obvious than having Angel Inc defeat the Beast and then rest on their laurels whilst waiting for Jasmine to pop out unexpectantly?

And the age-old question:-

At which point was it Cordy and at which point was it Jasmine controlling her actions?. This has been debated ever since the season ended, and safe to say that it is not clear cut in any shape or form. IMO the Cordy that descended from the higher plane was not the Cordy that was on the show before she ascended. Whether you take that as her being changed due to her experience up there or whether it was because of the thing inside her is another matter. I can't make my mind up.

The morality of the season does impress me though. The fact that Angel and his gang could've been on the wrong side in stopping Jasmine - but don't even realise it, is fascinating. Was Jasmine's enslavement of the human race a bad thing, was the cost "too high", or is it justifiable for world peace? These are questions that are not easily answered, and makes for an extremely thought-provoking season of TV.

Given the restrictions that the writing team had with S4 (Charisma's pregnancy mostly) what would you have changed about the season, if you were one of the writers. What explanations would you give to the questions that are presented but not clearly answered?

[Nina]

Oh season 4, I never know what to think about it. I love it and dislike it at the same moment. But it was better as season 7 of BtVS ... so I was looking forward to Ats season 4 when it was on the tv.

Why did Cordelia come back from a higher plane?

Part of the plan, Jasmine had to be on earth to make it all happen. She brought Cordelia to heaven/paradise, and Jasmine was the one who brought Cordelia back. I think that Skip did the work, but it was Jasmine's plan.

Why was Angelus "crucial" to FauxCordy's plan?

No, but it was a nice way to keep the gang away from her. Angel who is the smartest, wasn't the whole day thinking about 'the beast's master' and the gang wasn't either.

Why have the Beast, block out the sun and bring about the Rain of Fire?

Just like Angelus, it was a way to keep the focus away from her and her real plan.

At which point was it Cordy and at which point was it Jasmine controlling her actions?

I think the moment after the spell of Lorne, it must of awoken Jasmine. But wasn't that told in the series?


I've posted about the morality of Jasmine before, in the thread about the first and Jasmine I guess. But I'm still agreeing with Angel, freedom and an own opinion is more important as world peace. Jasmine isn't a typical big bad, she tried to save humanity in a way that wasn't right. I always believed that the storyline of Jasmine could be a great one for Willow in season 6. I can see Willow do the same as Jasmine did. But anyway, Jasmine tried to make some kind of communistic society, but made the same mistake as the human communists. She became a dictator of a non-critical society.


I never liked evil!cordy (or Connor/Cordy). I know that it wasn't her, but I see it as Cordelia anyway. So, evil Cordelia isn't in my story. I know that there was a contract and CC should be in season 4. But I would have loved it when CC would stay pregnant off-screen and would have been in heaven during season 4. And than a shiny come back in season 5, like YW, only longer. But if the pregnant CC should be in season 4, Cordelia had to be pregnant ... I don't want a pregnant Charisma playing a non-pregnant Cordelia. But I would have chosen for a normal child and father I guess.

[Serafir]

Given the restrictions that the writing team had with S4 (Charisma's pregnancy mostly) what would you have changed about the season, if you were one of the writers. What explanations would you give to the questions that are presented but not clearly answered?

You bring up really good points there, and I find that the story arc of the season has big holes in it. It`s like a swiss cheese. It feels contrived, very much so in the scene with Skip where he explains "everything that has gone before, leading up to this point in time". Bah...

I would have completely shifted it around, thrown all ideas of Cordy being the big bad and any other ideas for the season away and started on scratch. Explained the pregnancy with Groo, and moved from there.

[Drogyn]

I always take what Skips says as he's trying to big up his master, and to try and convince them there is nothing they can do, with the whole planned/destiny blah blah.

With the Beast/Reign of Fire/Angelus, I take them all as distractions so they don't know whats going on with Cordy, basically she has them all running around like mad chickens while she just sets her plan in motion. Angelus i think, like whats been mentioned was to take Angel out of play aswell.

I think you can also assume amnesia Cordy, really doesn't remember anything, and after the spell, its all Jasmine.


On a side note; what do you think everyone remembers in season 5 of season 3/4.
I always though they'd remember what happened just take Connor out, for example; Wes was apart from the group, just no one remembers why or even questions why, same with why Angel was missing, they know he was, just don't question the events around it?

[Veverka]

Given the restrictions that the writing team had with S4 (Charisma's pregnancy mostly) what would you have changed about the season, if you were one of the writers. What explanations would you give to the questions that are presented but not clearly answered?

I'm watching this at the moment, so I will get back to this thread- need to dash now, coz I'm up to the mystical mind walk part (!) and, yeah, well... gotta see it.

My short answer to this part of CiderDrinker's question though, is I believe writers have many options when an actress is pregnant, not all of which mean the character has to be pregnant too.

While the idea of comparing 'The Nanny' with 'Angel' is laughable, when Lauren Lane was pregnant they shot her always from neck up- yeah, it's probably a bitch for the camera person, but- if the integrity of the story is gonna be compromised, which I think season four's was, isn't it better to just have a few less scenes with the character, with a few shooting compromises?

This season bugs the crap out of me in this sense- I feel the character of Cordy was truly violated- not by the fact she 'went evil', but by the poor planning that led to the to-ing and fro-ing manner in which the audience, and, I believe, the actress had no idea what was going on.

Season four has many strengths- the Gunn/Fred/Wesley/Lilah storyline, the moral questions, the use of Faith and Angelus, the guest starring of Alyson Hannigan, the awesomeness of the family arc regarding Angel and Connor. To me it's a pity the whole 'let's shaft Charisma Carpenter now, and by the way her character is sleeping with her child-figure' thing was so overwhelming.

Whoa. For a short answer, that wasn't one.

[Maria]

Why did Cordelia come back from a higher plane?

I think she had to because it was our world Jasmine wanted to rule. Why would she stay up there when she was already inside.

Why was Angelus "crucial" to FauxCordy's plan?

I think Jasmine needed Angelus to get rid of the people who will get in the way. Although that may not make sense as well because when Jasmine came out, the vampires and demons were not affected by her mind control. If Angelus was not re-souled, then she wouldn't be able to control him. Unless she planned to re-soul him before she was "born".

Why have the Beast, block out the sun and bring about the Rain of Fire?

This could be just to wipe out the competition with the powerful resources such as Wolfram & Hart. The rest could just have been smokescreen for the real target. That's reaching out a bit but I'm also Lost here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ciderdrinker
At which point was it Cordy and at which point was it Jasmine controlling her actions?.
This has been debated ever since the season ended, and safe to say that it is not clear cut in any shape or form. IMO the Cordy that descended from the higher plane was not the Cordy that was on the show before she ascended. Whether you take that as her being changed due to her experience up there or whether it was because of the thing inside her is another matter. I can't make my mind up.[/QUOTE]

I feel the same way. Cordy was not the same when she came back. I am not even sure if she really had amnesia or Jasmine was just feeling her way around. Is it such a big coincidence that "Cordy" stepped on that bottle and smashed it to pieces during the memory ritual in Spin the Bottle.

[Sacred Knight]

I've always had another big question about the plot of season 4, so I thought I'd add it right here with these questions if that's cool.

So here it is: After Connor captures the gang minus Angel and locks them up in Angelus' former holding cell back at the Hyperion, what was the point of Wesley's musings about Cordy possibly being the key to stopping Jasmine?

It just at the time seemed like major foreshadowing that the key to getting rid of Jasmine completely would be through Cordelia, that either her blood would do something or Cordy would wake and the real Cordelia would save the day (which I really had hoped would go down). But, nothing comes of this. Angel returns with Jasmine's real name, she loses a lot of her powers, and then its Connor who kills Jasmine. It just almost feels like they were filming that episode and mid-filming got a new script for it and the finale. Granted I am a little biased as I always felt that we deserved to see the real Cordelia one more time in season 4's climax, and after all her character was put through by Jasmine it was she who deserved to put her down, but regardless of my personal feelings, Wes's comments seemed like a clear indication that Cordelia was going to play into resolving the conflict in some form or another, yet absolutely nothing came of it.

[LaJaula]

Knight, I've heard that it was originally supposed to be Cordelia that killed Jasmine-- she was going to awake from the coma. But CC's doctor wouldn't let her, because of her pregnancy, so the job fell to Connor.

Although, I guess everything that they're saying about Cordelia' blood being linked to Jasmine could also be applied to Connor, so it still fits.

[Sacred Knight]

Aw bummer! Makes it even more disappointing knowing it was in the cards but had to be bumped.

Yeah, there was definitely nothing wrong consistency-wise with Connor killing Jasmine, but man it would've made all the crap we got from faux-Cordy the whole season completely worth it to see her save the day. Even if they went the route of killing her off right then, as much as I love Your Welcome I would sacrifice that episode to have Cordy go out in a blaze of glory at the end of 4.