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  • I Will Remember You Thoughts....

    Okay so I'm not an avid Angel viewer but I do love the episode I Will Remember You. I when Buffy and Angel do crossovers. Anyway back to the topic at hand. At the end of the ep when Angel goes and sees the oracles to change him back to the way he was, why didn't he just ask for something else? I mean he could've still been a man if he had just asked for super human strength or something. That way he would still have all the luxuries a normal man has but have the advantage of extra strength. This would give him the ability to fight the evil while not putting Buffy or anyone else in harms way. These oracles probably could've gotten the PTB to do anything. Why didn't Angel use them to his advantage? I guess they didn't have him ask for something else since it was basically the beginning of the show and that would basically end it but still. What do you guys think?

    Oh and just a quick question, when Angel was turned back to his normal state did he still end up with the Gypsie curse or was that just completely gotten rid of? Just wondering for the fact that when he changed back to his original state he could've stayed with Buffy if he really wanted too if there was no curse anymore.
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  • #2
    He wasn't in a position to demand anything beyond what they gave him. I'm pretty sure he'd have gotten whatever the Oracle equivalent of "do you want a million dollars and a pony, as well?" if he'd come asking to stay human but get superpowers.

    He was fully human, no curse, no nothing.

    I don't think Angel could use them to his advantage because he had no actual leverage -- he barely got what he came in to get, and we've seen him get blown off by oracles and such at other times.

    What completely baffles me is his decision to actually *tell* Buffy what he'd done. I think it was a very selfish thing to do, or at least very foolish. She wouldn't remember, she couldn't change it, all it could do was hurt her. He had a choice between hurting and crying for a couple minutes or... not. Just hold her, man. It's one of the few times I can honestly say that something happened in an episode that was *purely* plot driven. The point of him telling her is so we, the audience, can watch the crying. It's not something a character acting intelligently would have done, though.
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    • #3
      Oh, come on. Since when does Angel act intelligently? Angel tells her because he's compulsive about doing the painful thing. If it doesn't hurt, he must be in the wrong.

      Your argument is the right one, though, I think.
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      • #4
        Well the moment when she starts saying "I'll never forget" is when I start to cry. So yeah, I can see it being there for the emotional/audience connection reasons.

        I know we get a few other moments with Angel and Buffy after this (Forever in particular and End of Days/Chosen), but this one gets to me the most. Also doesn't help that Buffy's on a date with Riley in the next episode.. no wonder I disliked their relationship so much when I first saw season 4 and 5.

        I'd like for this episode of Angel to be paid off eventually and for Buffy to remember.. or something. I've felt cheated since 1999 damnit!
        Last edited by alexa; 03-01-08, 11:04 AM.
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        • #5
          At the time, the point had been for it to be the swan song to Buffy/Angel, though. It wasn't being brought up to be paid off, it was being brought up to tell people that the story was moving on without Buffy/Angel as a couple. Honestly, that seemed to be what they were *trying* to in "The Prom"... and "I Will Remember You"... and "The Yoko Factor". After that, they just gave up and started giving the 'ship little shout-outs that wouldn't get in the way of the story.
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          • #6
            The simple answer to the question of why Angel couldn't be turned into a superhuman man is that it wasn't actually in the Oracles power. They couldn't actually turn him into a soulled vampire, which is why they had to fold back time. Another theory is that it was a test of nobilty and sacrifice. It's kind of like a kinder Cruciamentum: if Angel wanted to stay human fine, then he's probably better off that way but if he chooses the path of a warrior and proves he is willing to sacrifice, then he is more worthy to the cause...don't ask me, those PTBs are kind of screwy anyway.

            As far as the ep goes, hey it's vintage Bangel, where would we be without the pain.

            As for Angel telling her? I'm not sure. I think the only way he couldn't have told her is if he avoided her. The last minute would involve Angel crying and Buffy saying "What?????!!!" As soon as she saw Angel she knew something was wrong anyway.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by kana View Post
              As for Angel telling her? I'm not sure. I think the only way he couldn't have told her is if he avoided her. The last minute would involve Angel crying and Buffy saying "What?????!!!" As soon as she saw Angel she knew something was wrong anyway.
              Yeah she picked up on it straight away, unless I'm remembering it a little fuzzy it didn't seem clear he had any intention of telling her until she poked around. I kind of think he was right to tell her, to explain it to her, perhaps to make himself believe it.

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              • #8
                Yeah to be honest I'm sure we've had this conversation before.

                Angel's main options were avoid her all together until the time was up. Fair enough, I guess

                See her and lie and subseuqently spend your last minute arguing because Buffy would know what's going on.

                Or actually tell her, like he did.

                Even if it did hurt her, it wouldn't last and she did understand and probably appreciated him telling her (that's one of things that miffed Buffy in the first place, Angel keeping secrets). Worth it for that last kiss? Bangelists would agree lol.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by kanga View Post
                  I'd like for this episode of Angel to be paid off eventually and for Buffy to remember.. or something. I've felt cheated since 1999 damnit!
                  Oh Kanga I know! I'm like it would've been cool if Buffy had one of her dreams and it was exactly the way the episode was. It would have been fun to see how she would've reacted to it. I think it would have been a good idea to replace the dream bit with when Angel came to town in season 7. Replace the cookie dough scene and I would be happy.

                  Yeah to be honest I'm sure we've had this conversation before.
                  Sorry if you have Kana. I looked around for a thread like this and couldn't find one so I just decided to make one. It seeems no one else has a problem with it so far and it hasn't been moved so I guess it's alright.
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                  • #10
                    Saddest. Episode. Ever.


                    That is all.

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                    • #11
                      What kills me the most in the episode is that only Angel will remember that day and how Buffy says she will never forget and the she does.
                      And if you really think about it, it?s sad in the way that Buffy dies anyway. Angel begs to be turned back to protect Buffy and still, he doesn?t do that. Buffy dies at the end of S5. But, tearjerker episode, for sure!

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                      • #12
                        I believe Angel felt he hadn't earned the right, yet. He was still fighting for redemption, and to be suddenly human, w/ or w/o super-strength, well, there's just no redemption in that. He knew what he was fighting for and he knew this was the easy way out.

                        As for telling Buffy, there's no way he couldn't have. I mean, come on, the girl can *feel* him when he's around, even when she can't see him. And she's always be able to read him like a book. Avoiding her...I believe that's probably what he was doing and why Buff had been alone so long. Remember, time works differently in the Oracles dimension than in ours. I believe he had probably gone for a REALLY long walk, was planning on avoiding Buffy altogether, then thought better of it, as he probably needed one last glimpse for himself. Telling her was the right thing to do in the end, regardless of the pain that it caused her. She would forget the pain, at least he got to hold and kiss her once more.
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                        • #13
                          He could have held her and kissed her without telling her. I still think that is one of the most inexplicably stupid things Angel ever does. It's knowledge that can't affect Buffy permanently one way or another, so why temporarily hurt her?
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                            He could have held her and kissed her without telling her. I still think that is one of the most inexplicably stupid things Angel ever does. It's knowledge that can't affect Buffy permanently one way or another, so why temporarily hurt her?
                            Huh. Y'know, that never occurred to me. It would've been pretty heartbreaking for the audience if we knew that Angel had made the deal, but still held her as if it was all going to be alright. His heart is shattered, but she's blissfully unaware. Not sure if it would've been the emotional donkey kick that IWRY ended up having, but it would've been something.

                            Ah well. It's still my favourite episode of that season, maybe my favourite of the series.

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                            • #15
                              I don't think there's any topping "Five By Five" and "Sanctuary" in Season 1. The end of "Five By Five" is arguably one of the top 10 moments of either series.
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                              • #16
                                Good question... I often get the feeling that Angel and Buffy just like to make it hard for themselves, lol. considering most of the decisions they've made throughout each of the seasons.
                                Giles: All we know is that the fate of the entire world rests on it. . . Did you eat all the jellies?
                                Buffy: Did you want a jelly?
                                Giles: I always have a jelly. I'm always the one that says "let's have a jelly in the mix."

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                                • #17
                                  I liked the episode but it was a sad ending. I really hope that one day Buffy does remember this...

                                  Trish

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                                  • #18
                                    Technically, there's nothing for Buffy to remember -- the day only happened for Angel, for everyone else, 8:59am turned into 9:00am, turned into 9:01am. For Buffy, the entire encounter consisted of her coming in, talking to Cordy and Doyle, going into Angel's office, arguing briefly, seeing him kill the Mohra, agreeing not to see each other, and leaving to go see her father.

                                    Also, there's really nothing narratively to benefit by having Buffy learn about it. With Angel not being a part of Season 8, and Buffy/Angel not really being part of the ongoing story that Joss is telling other than the occasional nod to the 'shippers, what would be the purpose of it?
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                      Also, there's really nothing narratively to benefit by having Buffy learn about it. With Angel not being a part of Season 8, and Buffy/Angel not really being part of the ongoing story that Joss is telling other than the occasional nod to the 'shippers, what would be the purpose of it?
                                      Mmm I think it could work without nescessirly needing Angel there, or really the main focus being on the Buffy/Angel relationship at all. As for example, in the episode 'As You Were' Anya states;

                                      ANYA: I know. I'm the luckiest ex-demon in the world. To be able to find the one person in all dimensions that I was meant to be with... and have everything work out just the way I dreamed. How often does the universe allow that to happen? She hugs Xander close, not seeing how her words have hit Buffy right in the Angel parallel. Buffy and Xander eye each other, both feeling the need to escape.
                                      Which I never realised was supposed to upset Buffy because the thinks about Angel at this moment and how the universe did not all this to happen for her. The shooting script actually states,

                                      She hugs Xander close, not seeing how her words have hit Buffy right in the Angel parallel. Buffy and Xander eye each other, both feeling the need to escape.
                                      Now that wasn't about Buffy/Angel during their conversation, but it related to it and was used as a tool by the writer to make Buffy unhappy and depressed. Now of course that's a lot more subtle than Buffy remembering the lost day in 'IWRY' but it could work to a similair effect IMO.

                                      In Buffy Season 8;

                                      Spoiler:
                                      We know Buffy is feeling alone, that she can't feel that connection with the slayers and that people who love her always leave her, even her friends. I think it could work if she remembered this day she had where she finally had that connection and felt like a normal girl, but lost it, and it was because both of their lives called for that. They couldn't be happy because she is the slayer. I think this could work well with what Buffy is going through now and would just be another blow to hre.

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                                      • #20
                                        I'm really not ready to buy a similar moment as a basis to have Buffy learn about that. If having Buffy and Xander share an 'ouch' over Buffy's lack of similar good fortune with Angel in a wistful moment for her is a... a 7, then having Buffy learn, for a similar narrative purpose, that Angel actually was human and had her and gave her up, is a 44,242,132,998.

                                        It's the kind of thing that there is no way to bring up without forcing Buffy to immediately need to resolve it or have at Angel over it or go fetal in depression. And with him not in the story... there is just no point. It's not the story Joss is telling, hasn't been the story he's telling for a long time now.
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