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The Powers that Be and Cordelia's kiss.

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  • The Powers that Be and Cordelia's kiss.

    Angel tells the group that the reason behind his getting in with the Black Thorn was due to Fred's death as well as Cordelia's kiss which gave him a vision and aim to take them down. So the Powers that Be gave him this last vision and set in motion the events taking place in the comic book. They had to have known what Wolfram and Hart would do if Angel took the visions he was given and do what he thought was right. Was it the Powers that Be's plan to send LA to hell? I'm confused. Anyone have any ideas?
    Just one rule... I don't want to date a twin... I've been traded before.

  • #2
    Originally posted by modifiedblind View Post
    Angel tells the group that the reason behind his getting in with the Black Thorn was due to Fred's death as well as Cordelia's kiss which gave him a vision and aim to take them down. So the Powers that Be gave him this last vision and set in motion the events taking place in the comic book. They had to have known what Wolfram and Hart would do if Angel took the visions he was given and do what he thought was right. Was it the Powers that Be's plan to send LA to hell? I'm confused. Anyone have any ideas?
    Seen the end of Constantine?

    While I wouldn't count out the possibility that Angel misunderstood what the PTBs wanted him to do, I find the notion that they were willing to let LA go to hell if it served their purposes entirely believable.
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    • #3
      I'd say it's self-evident that he did misunderstand it, at this point It's not unprecedented at all, either.

      In "Judgment", Angel is all goal-oriented, and thereby mistakes the vision Cordy gets about the Pregnant Woman as a sign to kill her champion. Which... it wasn't.

      In "Reunion", the Powers send a vision to Cordy that quite apparently was purposed just to getting him to *stop what he was doing* in pursuing W&H and Darla.

      I'd say Cordy's vision that she gave Angel probably wasn't anything other than a warning. "This is evil, champion -- learn what this symbol means and you'll realize you need to walk out the door".
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      • #4
        This is from my previous post:

        I have a theory (this has been floating my mind for a long time now, but I've never discussed it before) and it involves the circle of the black thorn. At NFA, Angel's plan was to take down the black thorn - and he did... almost.

        Only one member survived Angel's plan - Angel. This opens up two theories. 1) is that Angel killed the circle but expected that W&H would not kill him because they would sever their last link with the world. If this is the case, then Angel's plan is far more intricate than we previously assumed back in the series, and everything in LA is going according to plan. 2) Angel killed the circle with the intention of provoking the senior partners into killing him in the alley and, thus in the tradition of glorious pyrrhic victories, sever the Wolf, ram and Hart from the world through self sacrifice.

        Given his little speech in the last panel, I'm beginning to believe my first theory: Angel planned the devastation in LA as part of a bigger plot to truly destroy the wolf ram and hart. This tells me that Angel's plan in NFA was, in fact, not capricious and ill-advised, but far reaching. Bloody and monstrous, yes but far reaching and more intricate than what we have previously assumed.

        We also need to remember that the powers gave him the idea about the blackthorn via the visions Cordelia passed on to him (I hope Lynch doesn't forget that interesting bit of info), so we can't give the total credit or blame to Angel. The powers are watching, and intervening through the visions- and they wanted the blackthorn out of the picture by giving Angel that vision. This may be bigger than what we previously thought.
        I agree with Mabus about the possibility of Angel misinterpreting the vision, but, as of now, the vision thing is anyone's guess. The best we can hope for is that Joss and Lynch do not forget about that tiny little detail

        Also, I agree about the Powers being fallible. Jasmine is a clear example of this.
        Last edited by Julian; 22-12-07, 04:15 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
          I'd say it's self-evident that he did misunderstand it, at this point It's not unprecedented at all, either.

          In "Judgment", Angel is all goal-oriented, and thereby mistakes the vision Cordy gets about the Pregnant Woman as a sign to kill her champion. Which... it wasn't.

          In "Reunion", the Powers send a vision to Cordy that quite apparently was purposed just to getting him to *stop what he was doing* in pursuing W&H and Darla.

          I'd say Cordy's vision that she gave Angel probably wasn't anything other than a warning. "This is evil, champion -- learn what this symbol means and you'll realize you need to walk out the door".
          bit continued from After the Fall #2 discussion...

          The vision in Judgment was intensely obscure. The Prio Motu was from a race of demons that basically killed humans indiscriminately and it was acting as the show said, well outside of its modus operandi. Not to mention that Angel was specifically mislead about the demon by Merle.

          The second vision was not misinterpreted. Angel pretty much knew what it meant, as did Cordy and the others, Angel chose to ignore it. That was fairly obvious from the episode.

          The reason the whole 'these guys are evil... dip!' assumption from the vision thing doesn't wash is the fact that well, DUH! Angel knows that W&H is populated by a bunch of evil son's of bitches. He had already worked with several of them before he even GOT the vision, it's not like he thought that Sebassis was a nice guy, and changed his opinion after he found out the Duke was black thorn.

          It's far more likely that the Black Thorn vision was sent as an assignment. We know from S5 that W&H was planning an apocalypse soon, and that these men, women, and demons were their agents. Direct agents, the ones who kept their influence on earth tangible. Killing them would be a heck of a blow to the SP, and it was.

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          • #6
            Not really sure.

            But I see it as a bit odd that the powers would send Angel a vision of the symbol to warn him away from the Black Thorn when at that moment he had no knowledge of them and thus wouldn't be a state of mind they could corrupt him? The PTB brought the circle to his attention, wanted him to fixate it. I presume Angel would have continued onwards without any knowledge of the secret society with the power's vision.

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            • #7
              Makes sense to me -- you show him just how serious the evil he's put himself near is, and maybe he'll wise up and clear out.

              I'm starting off with the assumption that the Powers did *not* want 10 million people sent to a hell dimension. Angel might not have known that might happen, but the Powers would have known. And if the result was not what they wanted, then the process that led to it wasn't what they wanted, so it follows that Angel must not have gotten the right idea.
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              • #8
                Before the events of Season Six forced the need for some retconning, I wouldn't think it was very questionable. But I agree with KingofCretins that letting LA get sucked into a hell dimension is an extreme decision even for the Powers that Screw You, and we shouldn't be quick to conclude that the Powers that Be really did intend for Angel to attack the Circle of the Black Thorn.

                The misinterpretation theory is a valid one, and it would also be legitimate to stick with the text of Season Five, going with the non-retcon assumption that the Powers that Be did want Angel to attack the Black Thorn. After all, maybe the results would have been even worse if things had continued the way they were going, if Angel had been corrupted the way the Senior Partners planned. But I've thought of a third theory about what was going on. It could easily have been Jasmine.

                Think about it. Jasmine had the means, the opportunity, and the motive. A being like her would probably not suffer annihilation just because her body was destroyed. And if she is still around in some form, why shouldn't she retain the kind of control over Cordela's body that she had before the birth of the black-lady body that we think of as "Jasmine." She was able to act exactly like Cordelia for a whole season, so fooling Angel isn't a problem. As for Cordelia's apparent "death," Jasmine could have manifested an object that looked like Cordelia's dead body for the benefit of the hospital people. Or simply faked the call from the hospital that told Angel that Cordelia's had died. There's your means and opportunity.

                As for the motive, this too is obviously present. Jasmine is no friend of the Senior Partners, and she's enough of an extremist to believe that sending millions of people into a hell dimension is just a bit of acceptable collateral damage in an attack that weakens their rule on Earth. And of course she hates Angel too, so if her plan has the effect of making him miserable, well, that's just gravy.

                Yes, I like this theory a lot. It makes a lot of sense that Jasmine would be the one behind the message in You're Welcome.
                Last edited by Ojuice5001; 24-12-07, 02:07 PM.
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                • #9
                  I've got two problems with what otherwise is a decent working theory.

                  1. I don't agree that Jasmine could have survived "Peace Out". I think she was essentially invulnerable to any type of harm Angel, or anyone else, could have thrown at her, but that her susceptibility to her blood parents, the ones with the keys to her power, Connor and Cordelia, were absolute weaknesses. It may sound crazy, but I honestly think Cordy, no super strength at all, could have done exactly what Connor did to her -- like she was made of paper, but only to them.

                  That weakness is a common device in literature, the cost of the big upside, and I don't think there was any coming back from that for Jasmine.

                  2. If true, then Cordy never reappeared as herself at all, and I simply won't accept that. That was absolutely Cordelia in "You're Welcome".

                  I could buy a theory that LA being sent to a hell dimension is a better outcome than the one they avoided, if they had shown us any threat of it. The peril they established in "Power Play" and "Not Fade Away", though, wasn't of some imminent world-threatening plan of the Senior Partners -- it was just the fact that business as usual would go on and they would continue their step by step push toward their goals. Nothing to imply that there wasn't time enough to form a different battle plan.

                  Personally, I think the one that makes sense is for them all to go buy hats, so that they have something to hold in their hands, and then come crawling up to the BHC saying "yeah, we screwed up, can you help us save the world?"
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                  • #10
                    Perhaps the PTB didn't know what W&H's response would be. As I said before, sending LA to Hell is an amazingly drastic move on the part of the SP. The PTB have a good deal of knowledge, and assuming that everything isn't completely pre-written, things might very well go different to plan (see Acathala). It's entirely possible that the sending of LA to hell was just so outside of anyone's imaginations that it wasn't considered.

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                    • #11
                      Cordelia?s kiss was a way for him to straighten up and do something because the evil of W&H was getting to him and he was feeling depressed about not being able to help anymore, so Cordelia just pointed him in the right direction.
                      And the plans of the PTB were never clear.

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