Angel: After the Fall Issue #2 Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

Well, great issue, actually a lot better than #1 in my opinion.

I really think this one has some great character interaction. I'm surprised to see that, contrary to my initial thought, Angel is probably on pretty good terms with Connor, Nina, and Gwen. Angel and Spike, on the other hand, are about as friendly as ever.

Spike's situation is going to be quite a problem for a number of people, but... it feels in character for me. He's not undercover, if anything, he's a prisoner, and implies as much himself, but he clearly has a very gilded cage that he doesn't seem to resent at all.

Remember that request Illyria made about Spike? You see, what ha ha happened was...

Sufficed to say, Spike is "Lord of Beverly Hills" and surrounded by every comfort that one can provide in a hell dimension if one is the biggest, baddest demon in the joint.

I'm very happy with the development of Gunn here. He's either A) genuinely trying to prove that the soul thing is all hype, or trying to, B) the most dangerous sort of enemy I could imagine for Angel, or C) both. Frankly, I wonder if Bryan Lynch might have read Mabus' "DeadWar" fanfic, because... Gunn is DeadWar Buffy, frankly.

One common thread of this issue is how everyone feels about Angel now -- and while Angel is most worried that he's at "square one" with Connor, Connor seems to actually like him. Gunn, Spike, and presumably Illyria, on the other hand, all hold him pretty much personally responsible for their situation. Which is... valid, in my opinion.

Fantastic issue, and it looks like in #3 we'll also find out if Illyria is pleased with the noises Angel makes while she pummels on him.

[Nina]

Sounds great!

Gunn, Spike, and presumably Illyria, on the other hand, all hold him pretty much personally responsible for their situation. Which is... valid, in my opinion.

I don't know, Spike and Gunn agreed with the plan and the risks. They knew the deal.

[KingofCretins]

Angel makes a similar argument, but it doesn't seem to be convincing anyone. Plus, choice was a little iffy, I think -- he'd already committed them before asking for volunteers. The only practical choice Wes or Spike or Gunn or Lorne had was to just walk away and let Angel either get killed on his own or just say screw it and be part of the Circle for real.

I should clarify... it's not clear that there is a Spikelyria thing happening, but she's clearly the power around there and he clearly defers to her -- and she does refer to him as 'her pet'. However, there is, as suggested, one of the "demon hos" (although I don't think all or even most are demons -- more like they've created an oasis in which to rescue the more comely citizens of L.A.) that clearly is sort of Spike's... something. Girl Friday, paramour, hard to tell. Name of Spider, though.

[Nina]

Still, there was a choice for them. Neither of them was against it (except Lorne, who left), they could of walked away. Angel gave them a choice, and they followed him. I think it's not completely fair to Angel to blame him for everything. I know it was his plan, but they were in. I would understand if Nina, Gwen or Connor blamed Angel, but not the people who raised their hands in NFA.

Spike is Illyria's pet? wow, I don't know if I like that or not. Spike was always some kind of pet, but this is different.

[KingofCretins]

In the sense that a persian cat wearing diamond necklaces and eating its catfood out of a waterford crystal dish is a pet, but, yeah, ostensibly a pet. Completely with a wide selection of chew toys, it would appear

It's fascinating -- so far we've got Spike, who thinks its all Angel's fault, who has basically decided he did his part in the good fight and his happy to kick his feet up in the somehow preserved California luxury of his/Illyria's mansion, but is otherwise still Spike, vampire with a soul. On the other side, we have Gunn, soulless vampire, who is *obsessed* with being a white hat and proving himself better than Angel as a man, despite not having a soul, but, like Spike, still blaming Angel for everything and explicitly stating that he means to kill Angel.

Illyria hasn't really said much other than to call Spike her pet, but from the way in which she offers to dismember Angel, I expect she's probably on the "this is all your fault" bandwagon, too.

[patxshand]

Instead of post a link to my review page OR just typing everything over in here, I'll just post my review here as well.

In short, loved it.

In incredibly long...

What Is It?: Angel- After the Fall: Issue #2 (written by Brian Lynch, plotted by Joss Whedon and Brian Lynch). It's canon.


Timing: Directly following After the Fall: Issue #1.

REVIEW: Get your "Live Fast, Die Never" soundtrack ready to play in the background. Go to youtube and pick your favorite "Angel: Season Six" opening credits to play after the sixth page reveal. This is an experience that fans will want to enjoy, because this comic maintains the momentum that Brian Lynch started in the flawlessly scripted first issue. Though this time around we get less pages (the five extra pages in the first issue was a gift, really), I didn't even notice it. This issue bursts with content: We've got awesome fight scenes, great character interaction, and the return of the other ensouled vamp that everyone's been asking about. Not to mention the return of (SPOILERthe most interesting character that Joss Whedon never got the chance to dwell on. That's right baby. Enter- Blue Thunder.(/SPOILER)

I don't want to keep comparing this series to "Buffy-Season Eight," which is wonderful as it is, but there is something I'd like to address. A lot of people are taking issue with the fact that Joss Whedon is keeping us in the dark with many of his plots. There are still so many questions that, ten issues into the series, haven't been answered. Why is Dawn a giant? Where has Willow been, and what's up with her crazy new powers? When is this series set? Not to mention that we just found out who Floaty Boots from Issue #1 is at the end of #9. I find the slow discovery very exciting (I think Joss was inspired by slower movement of the arc from his favorite show, Veronica Mars) but I can also see why people are getting antsy to find out. Some even said that this takes away from their reading experience. This is not the case with After the Fall. In this issue, we get heaps of answers to the questions posed in issue #1 (What was that glowy orb that Gunn took from Kr'ph? (Kinda How was Gunn sired? What is Spike up to? What's up with Spike and all those babes? How is the Angel/Connor relationship going to be? How does Angel feel about Wesley's sitch? We also kind of get an answer to the questions about the canonicity of Spike: Asylum. That doesn't, and probably won't, get a definitive answer, but Betta George alludes to having spent time with a vampire.


Oh and... to those with a magnifying glass more powerful than mine, you'll known the name of the Dragon in this issue. I'm stickin' with Ramon.


Now that I've BSed enough, allow me to get down to the juicy center of this review. The character's dialogue is, again, great. Spike and Angel's exchanges are classic, but who would expect any less? I have to note though, that I kinda felt like Gwen was talking like she was Faith. Perhaps it's because I haven't seen a Gwen-centric episode in quite some time, but I'm not sold on her dialogue yet. Everyone else that speaks in this issue is spot on, particularly Connor (who didn't have much in the way of a speaking part last time). Lynch continues to shine in his depiction of Spike, introducing him with a scene sort of mirror the time where Angel tells tales of his brave, brave conquests in Pylea. And, for the first time in... ever, the character I was most excited to see is Gunn. If you thought his character arc in Season Five was his biggest and most interesting yet, just hold up a second. His dilemma (nah, it's not just 'grr I'm a vamp, Angel dies and women are eaten!') is something I could have never thought up in my wildest and most badass dreams. While other characters get more page time in this issue than in the first, but Angel is still very much the center of the action and the core of the story. Angel, the man and the series, are in very good hands.


A lot was riding on this issue. It had to keep pleasing those who loved Issue One and sell the series to those unconvinced by Issue One (we never speak of them). No doubt in my mind that people will still complain (see the ART section), but if they didn't this wouldn't be the Buffyverse. For those that aren't LOOKING for reasons to dislike the issue--there are many of these people out there--these twenty-two pages are another treat.


Art: The art from Issue One wasn't very popular with a number of Whedonesquers and other reviewers. People didn't like the dark "muddy" style, and--while I didn't 100% agree--I also thought that the colors could be better. Urru's style vibes much better with the new colorist in this issue, who makes the pages brighter and more vibrant without spoiling the very dark mood of the series. Those who didn't like the art of the first issue will be sold by this issue. However, those people that won't be happy are the ones complaining about the boobage in the comics. I'll break it down character by character. Nina... I'd risk castration by Whedonesquers by saying that her bust size isn't exaggerated by much. People seem to call "gratuitous!" about as quickly as they forget how the actress actually looked. Jenny Mollen isn't Sarah Michelle Gellar. Hell, she isn't even Charisma Carpenter. She has always had the biggest breasts in the series, and her new wardrobe (due to the sun/moon situation) just extenuate them. (RANTHer appearance in this issue is a LOT less gratuitous than the male nudity we got throughout the television run of the show and it doesn't even compare to the way that the people complaining about enhanced sexuality are the same ones writing erotic fanfic.(/RANT) *Sigh* Okay. Now about the other characters. Gwen does indeed have bigger boobs than she did in the series, by quite a long shot. She has always been a highly sexual character, but she was never half the size she is here. While it's certainly not a big deal, I think those people complaining about Nina would have more of a case if they brought up Gwen. She, so far, is the only character to be chestually enhanced. People will also take issue with the demon babes, but... that's their thing. Again, the show was highly sexual at times, often showing male nudity at a 4560:1 ratio to female nudity. I urge people to ease up and try to enjoy a story that is very much going places.


Rating: 10/10










--------------WARNING---------------




Beyond this point, there be UNCOVERED spoilers. The following sections are the "Characters We Know" and "Speculation" sections, all of which are VERY spoilery. If you don't want spoilers, then don't read past here.




--------------WARNING---------------










Characters We Know: Angel, Wesley, Nina, Connor, Gwen, Gunn, Spike, Illyria


Lynchverse Characters We Know (from the "Spike" series, newly introduced 'mightbemajors'): Betta George, Spider


Speculation: So Gunn still fancies himself a good guy. A good guy with a disease. I'm loving the idea, especially the "Don't call me a vampire" stuff, which brings to mind John Locke's heartbreaking "Don't tell me what I can't do!" cries. I'm not even going to begin to speculate on what Gunn has coming for him, because the reveal of his "motivations" shocked me enough to just sit back and let the comics tell his story. Last time, I said this about Spike: "My speculation is that Spike has somehow become one of the LA Lords." Well, it's true. Spike is indeed the Lord of Beverly Hills, and he's also Illyria's "pet." I don't know how he is both a Lord (high connotations) and a pet (low connotations), but I'm guessing that he and Illyria are both Lords of the area. Spike's dialogue ("I didn't rise from prisoner to prisoner with benefits to protector back to prisoner with benefits to Lord, just to have you come and muck it up") makes me think that the one who imprisoned him was Illyria herself, who subsequently decided that she liked him enough the "promote" him. Speaking of dynamic duos, I feel like Angel and Connor are going to have a LOT of screen time together. Their shared scene is one of the best in the comic and has further elevated Connor in my books. He was once the worst character of the series, brought up to 'tolerable, pretty cool' in Season Five, and now... You know the rest. I'm glad to have a name to put to the glowy orb (The Eye of Ramras) and a breakdown of what it can do. With Gunn in possession of the EoR, things are going to get hectic fast. And I'll be strapped in for every minute.


Now, I reiterate...






-------------END OF SPOILERS-----------






Rating: 10/10 Classic.

[sueworld]

Wonderful review patxshand!

Spike is Illyria's pet? wow, I don't know if I like that or not. Spike was always some kind of pet, but this is different.

Aww, I don't know. He'd look lovely in a little collar with a pretty leash attached to it.

Wonderful idea. If I didn't know better I'd think Brian's been reading too many fanfics.

[patxshand]

Yessssss, I've been Whedonesqued! lol

What was everyone's favorite part about the issue? Least favorite?

My favorite was (1) Gunn's exchange with Betta George and (2) Spike's heroic story. One very serious, revealling moment, and one laugh out loud scene. Great stuff.

My least favorite... Hmmmm... This is a lot harder than "favorites." I guess... the fact that we didn't get a letters section. What's up with that?

[sueworld]

I love the line "Which of you can do silly voices" myself. Great 'into' for Angel there.

I also like how relaxed Angel and Connor seem to be in each others presence. Very nice.

[Mabus]

I'm very happy with the development of Gunn here. He's either A) genuinely trying to prove that the soul thing is all hype, or trying to, B) the most dangerous sort of enemy I could imagine for Angel, or C) both. Frankly, I wonder if Bryan Lynch might have read Mabus' "DeadWar" fanfic, because... Gunn is DeadWar Buffy, frankly.

I'm genuinely astonished by this, despite the overwhelmingly positive response to DeadWar. (For all I know, maybe he has read it...apparently a lot of people are reserving comment on LJ until I get closer to the end. ) It's a response I find very believable for Gunn, though. Had I known about the rumors of making him a vampire when I wrote Shadow Sun, I might have found a spot for him in the series. Or maybe not--I wouldn't wanna crowd Buffy. She'd take my head off.

I'm seriously wondering whether the comic will actually go ahead and subvert the trope--after all, we have seen all manner of demons turn out to be good, including a few that everyone assumed to be bloodthirsty monsters. (Up to and including an Old One! At least temporarily...I haven't yet seen exactly how Illyria acts now. And if I understand correctly, the dragon? So much for slaying it.) I'm sure a number of people would be displeased, of course, but then there are also people who would be very happy (interestingly, so far as I can tell they divide up pretty clearly among Bangels and Spuffies). And of course, there are the writers of serious meta--Slayage, for instance--some of whom seem to be as uneasy with Always Chaotic Evil demons as I am.

I also very much want to see who the heck sired Gunn. I find it hard to believe it was Angel--he's gone down that road before with Lawson, and the results weren't pretty. Spike seems more plausible philosophically ("I fought with the good guys for a couple of years before I got a soul.") but he's traditionally been pretty averse to siring folks. Beyond that...well, I am hoping to see Harmony eventually--I thought that might be her with the sword at first--but somehow I don't see it happening. Still--traditional siring standards? Cross-sex.

[KingofCretins]

I haven't yet seen exactly how Illyria acts now. And if I understand correctly, the dragon? So much for slaying it.) I'm sure a number of people would be displeased, of course, but then there are also people who would be very happy (interestingly, so far as I can tell they divide up pretty clearly among Bangels and Spuffies). And of course, there are the writers of serious meta--Slayage, for instance--some of whom seem to be as uneasy with Always Chaotic Evil demons as I am.

Illyria has only said one thing, really, and it's... pretty much the same old Illyria so far. We can infer, at least, that she may have replaced Wesley with Spike in her... affections, so to speak. She refers to him as her pet, at least.

The dragon is of the good, yes, and we see Angel tell Connor (but not us) its name. Whatever it is, Connor seems unimpressed.

I've never understood why the concept of unambivalent evil is troublesome for anyone, but, I don't get the impression that it's something "After the Fall" is going to try to challenge. Vampire/soul metaphysics, definitely. I don't see them taking on the nature of good and evil, though.

I also very much want to see who the heck sired Gunn. I find it hard to believe it was Angel--he's gone down that road before with Lawson, and the results weren't pretty. Spike seems more plausible philosophically ("I fought with the good guys for a couple of years before I got a soul.") but he's traditionally been pretty averse to siring folks. Beyond that...well, I am hoping to see Harmony eventually--I thought that might be her with the sword at first--but somehow I don't see it happening. Still--traditional siring standards? Cross-sex.

Gunn refers to having been dragged away and sired during the alley fight, apparently (at least he feels) without being noticed, as if abandoned. So, early suspicions that Angel or Spike did it and set him up like Lawson are unlikely. He appears to be a fully soulless, chipless, triggerless vampire who still is aflame with that most precious invention of all mankind -- the notion of goodness (pace Caleb). But, with a side dose of pummeling innocent fish and killing and eating the nubile love slaves he rescues.

I'd place him as a cross right now between ChipSpike, DeadWar Buffy, Harmony, and (Supernatural spoiler)

Spoiler:

the hunter who becomes a vampire in "Fresh Blood".

[ThePoet's<3]

Yessssss, I've been Whedonesqued! lol

What was everyone's favorite part about the issue? Least favorite?

My favorite was (1) Gunn's exchange with Betta George and (2) Spike's heroic story. One very serious, revealling moment, and one laugh out loud scene. Great stuff.

My least favorite... Hmmmm... This is a lot harder than "favorites." I guess... the fact that we didn't get a letters section. What's up with that?

DUDE!!! Just read your review - OVER AT YOUR SITE! LOL!! Was amazed to find you here!! WELCOME!!! LOVE YOUR SITE AND REVIEWS

I haven't read the issue - for some reason I thought it was out 12/27... Was I imagining that???

But can't resist spoilers - especially about my Manpire Spike! So he's Illyria's pet is he??? I think that's so KEWL!! And didn't you say Spider is from Asylum??? (Dangit - I just boxed my comics in the attic...grumble...gotta go get it out...grumble...) I'm hoping they make the whole Asylum series canon - it should be!

I had a feeling 1) Spike was a LA Lord 2) They would all blame Angel for their predicament

Was Spider our demon chick from Asylum who attended group sessions with him?

[Mabus]

I've never understood why the concept of unambivalent evil is troublesome for anyone, but, I don't get the impression that it's something "After the Fall" is going to try to challenge. Vampire/soul metaphysics, definitely. I don't see them taking on the nature of good and evil, though.

It's not "unambivalent evil" that bothers me. It's "evil becaues that's just the way I am". I've been over this before--evil-without-a-choice doesn't qualify as moral evil to me, and doesn't seem terribly compatible with intelligence. But, well...not a road I want to go down in this particular thread, and it's been discussed to death lately.

[KingofCretins]

It's not "unambivalent evil" that bothers me. It's "evil becaues that's just the way I am". I've been over this before--evil-without-a-choice doesn't qualify as moral evil to me, and doesn't seem terribly compatible with intelligence. But, well...not a road I want to go down in this particular thread, and it's been discussed to death lately.

Between Satan and the D&D 'chaotic evil' alignment, I've never had any doubt about the 'evil for evil's own sake' concept.

Was Spider our demon chick from Asylum who attended group sessions with him?

I haven't read Asylum, but if so, then I think we're pushing well past "quasi-canonical" into just good old fashioned "canon". But, how is Asylum going to fit the timeline wherein LA was apparently sent to a hell dimension more or less immediately after "Not Fade Away"?

[ThePoet's<3]

Not sure how that is going to work... I haven't read the issue - I swear I thought it was out 12/27 - but someone mentioned Spike tells a story about some heroic things he did - perhaps that's where it can be connected.

There was a demon-chick in Spike's group but I can't remember her name...(...does...not...want...to..climb...into... attic...) - could have been Spider. There was also a demon-chick who was "used" (perhaps the equivalent of a "crack ho"?) by the vampire gang that roamed the Asylum halls.

In regards to the time line - here is what Lynch had to say when he released the series...

" Spike is in Los Angeles, and he has a soul, and he's up and about and able to touch (and punch and kick and bite...and also hug...I'd assume. Three issues in and he does not hug anyone. Maybe for SPIKE: ASYLUM summer annual). But beyond that, I'm just telling the best SPIKE story I can, timelines be damned. Pick up the series and you tell us when you think it is. The first correct answer gets a hug. From Spike. "

My guess - between Destiny and Damage... Especially as in Soul Purpose is when Lyndsey approaches Spike about being the new Champion. That would be a great time line for Spike to have had some adventures - with soul - corporeal - and make it in before Not Fade Away. We never know the exact timelines of the episodes anyway. They are chronological of course but do they take place in a day? a week? weeks? months?

[patxshand]

DUDE!!! Just read your review - OVER AT YOUR SITE! LOL!! Was amazed to find you here!! WELCOME!!! LOVE YOUR SITE AND REVIEWS

Thanks! You're wonderful I didn't think anyone ever read them lol. I love writing though!

I haven't read the issue - for some reason I thought it was out 12/27... Was I imagining that???

It's the evil TFAW people. I don't know why, but when "After the Fall #1" was about to come out, they assumed for some reason it would be out 11/27. Ever since then, they've been putting the Angel comics release date as a week LATER than the actual date. They only fix it about a week before the issue comes out. #2 came out today annnddd... #3 comes out 1/16!

But can't resist spoilers - especially about my Manpire Spike! So he's Illyria's pet is he??? I think that's so KEWL!! And didn't you say Spider is from Asylum???

Don't fret, Spider is introduced here. I lumped together the Lynchverse character into that one category. It consists of characters from the two Spike series as well as NEW characters from "After the Fall" who look like they will be recurring. Spider was all sorts of clingy to Spike, and he called her by name. He also asked her to smash a cup in anger for him.

(Dangit - I just boxed my comics in the attic...grumble...gotta go get it out...grumble...) I'm hoping they make the whole Asylum series canon - it should be!

It's as good as. Betta George actually mentions spending time with a vampire before this. We all know who that is! For me, that canonized Asylum.

I had a feeling 1) Spike was a LA Lord 2) They would all blame Angel for their predicament

Was Spider our demon chick from Asylum who attended group sessions with him?

Nope, new character. You'll like her.

[patxshand]

I haven't read Asylum, but if so, then I think we're pushing well past "quasi-canonical" into just good old fashioned "canon". But, how is Asylum going to fit the timeline wherein LA was apparently sent to a hell dimension more or less immediately after "Not Fade Away"?

Oh Lord, King, you haveeee to read Asylum. Really. Comic greatness.

About where it fits in, it's actually easier to place it DURING Season Five. Spike is corporeal, he's trying to prove that he's better than Angel, he's in LA, and Hell has not yet arrived. Lorne is depicted as being in Los Vegas, but it's easy to say that he took a much needed break from W&H. I'd probably place this somewhere around 'Damage.'

[ThePoet's<3]

Oh Lord, King, you haveeee to read Asylum. Really. Comic greatness.

Oh definitely! That's what sold me on Lynch being the right person (other than Joss) to write the series. He has a fantastic capture of the characters - but amazingly Spike.

About where it fits in, it's actually easier to place it DURING Season Five. Spike is corporeal, he's trying to prove that he's better than Angel, he's in LA, and Hell has not yet arrived. Lorne is depicted as being in Los Vegas, but it's easy to say that he took a much needed break from W&H. I'd probably place this somewhere around 'Damage.'

That's what I was thinking as well... Somewhere between Destiny (because he is corporeal) and Damage (because he may still be healing after his run-in with Dana the Dementied Slayer and his trip to Rome with Angel.) Lyndsey sells him on the Champion gig and maybe right after that he has the Asylum and Shadow Puppets adventures.

I would think with references to both comics - Beta George, "spent some time with a vampire", and the Three Puppet Wesleys - including Spoiler Wesley - Joss has given Brian the "go" on canonizing his stories.

Sooo... If that may be the case... I HOPE WE SEE BECK!!!!

And I will call of the expedition to my attic to check out Spider... Hey - a vampire has to find his cuddles somewhere in Hell-A...

[KingofCretins]

Transcript is posted, by the way.

So, is Spider an Asylum character? So far, I like her. Not quite sure what to make of her, but I like her.

[patxshand]

Transcript is posted, by the way.

So, is Spider an Asylum character? So far, I like her. Not quite sure what to make of her, but I like her.

Nope, she's strictly "After the Fall."

Transcript already? Damn man, very quick! I'll have to check it out. I'm doing something similar, though I'm not posting it. My mother--a big Angel fan--can't read comics. She's very easily confused by them. As I love writing, I'm 'adapting' each issue into a prose story for her. I'm going to wait until the series is over before giving it to her. It's hard, because there is a lot of internal Angel dialogue, but it's essential to do it in third person. And--if may just be a pet peeve--I hate to do the "Line of dialogue, thought Angel" thing. I like to have characters think in paragraphs, if you know what I'm saying.