Announcement

**patxshand** · 19-12-07, 07:52 AM

Brian said the following in IDW Forums:

"It's also not what you think, so don't you worry."

He's said many times that he's not going to go the "Spike is evil" route, so we have nothing to worry about. This won't be a repeat of 'is he/is he not' from Season Seven. The cover of this issue is probably, like blurbs often are, misleading.

**sueworld** · 19-12-07, 11:15 AM

Now I know it doesn't look much like either of them facially, but I rather like that cover myself.

Very dynamic. I'm not worried about where Brian's going with all this just yet. I got a tad spoilered, so I knew this was on the cards.

**Phoenix** · 19-12-07, 11:44 AM

Pretty cool cover. Although I dont think it looks anything like Angel or Spike..

Wonder why its upside down though =/ Unless they're obviously falling, or it could symoblise something?

**vampmogs** · 19-12-07, 11:47 AM

I got the impression that they were falling from the image. Must say I'm not a fan of the drawing but as long as the scripts good and the quality inside is that of the first issue and the preview pages of Issue 2 I don't really care.

You were spoiled Sue? Care to share?

**sueworld** · 19-12-07, 12:11 PM

I only knew a wee amount, and I can't really say much more. Brian's not too keen on that sort of thing really. *g*

Suffice to say I'm still trusting Brian's ability to handle the storyline well and 'play fair' with the characters.

**ThePoet's<3** · 20-12-07, 06:17 AM

Like the cover but not the art. Wonder what the other covers look like...?

Lynch I trust but Joss...that's a whole other story...

**patxshand** · 20-12-07, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post

Like the cover but not the art. Wonder what the other covers look like...?

Lynch I trust but Joss...that's a whole other story...

Aw, why don't you trust Joss? He is the one who gave us all these characters. The glorious lump of grey that makes up is brain is the squishy thing that formulated our favorite stories!

**ThePoet's<3** · 20-12-07, 06:31 AM

I don't think he likes Spike as much as I do...

(and Brian!) So glad to have you with us patxshand!! You'll post other covers if you find them right??

As to the subject of the covers - it's enevitable that Spike and Angel are going to fight over this little "misadventure" they've gotten themselves into - Ollie... I'm thinking he will have to challenge (not necessarily in a fight) there loyalties again. Once burned in Hell-A...

**patxshand** · 20-12-07, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post

I don't think he likes Spike as much as I do...

(and Brian!) So glad to have you with us patxshand!! You'll post other covers if you find them right??

Oh, you know it.

I'm a cover lover. A lover of covers.

See?:

*Swoons*

**NileQT87** · 20-12-07, 07:00 AM

i trust joss a lot more than lynch. he still doesn't have the flavor down right... especially angel. nothing angel about lynch's angel at all. on the other hand, both joss and the btvs guest writer have managed to capture joss whedon better than lynch can... sadly, lynch's best line so far has been a quote. his dialog is just awful, his humor is not joss-like at all, the original characters are obnoxious (though betta george is at least kinda sweet instead of just totally annoying like all the demons so far have been)...

and if i see one more vinyl belly-showing bodysuit (that isn't on gwen), any use of spandex whatsoever, breasts that put the italian ceo of w&h to shame (remember her? 'cause that's how big nina and gwen's breasts have gotten--sorry koc, but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to nina's breast size--her breasts aren't F cups), or breast-waist-hip proportions that are downright INHUMAN--shapes that would have every woman doing a catherine madison broth diet (this also goes for demons that no stuntman could have ever performed)... i'll...

all i can hope for is angel, connor and wesley. at least they seem to understand angel and seem to be taken at least somewhat seriously.

apparently, spike has regressed into a hypocrite (he was the FIRST to raise his hand). i love spike, and i think lynch doesn't understand him at all (not to mention the utter lack of respect and acknowledgment of angel's intelligence that lynch has given him). i seriously think that lynch's bias shows through strong and clear.

it's not a spuffy vs. bangel thing. it's a spike vs. angel issue. lynch clearly favors spike acting like a goofy moron and does his darnest to remove angel's witticism (which turns him into a cardboard he never was), but in the doing of it, hurts spike, too. i would be thinking that the true spike fans (the ones that don't just want to see him as a butt of a joke or naked) would be outraged even worse than the angel fans.

apparently lynch has grudgingly started to admit that some of the things he wanted in angel: after the fall are really falling hard. he's definitely gotten it through his head that urru's art needs a serious overhaul (before, he was just making excuses for it by saying urru was italian--now, he's admitting that they have to do something about it/make something happen sooner because of the oversaturation of butts and breasts and spike's seeming love slave/hefner thing).

and i'm really sick of the change to the demons from guys in latex with either human personalities or almost non-existent background parts (the show) to being all pure demons and absolute morons who talk way too much while our main characters really need that talking space (especially angel). the show had a serious edge that lynch just doesn't get. wesley and connor are the only characters he hasn't focked over so far.

to add to the insult, one of angel's lines in issue #1 (clearly) was given to wesley (it was jolting to think of wesley calling a demon "big boy" or mentioning chasing rainbows... aaaaaack!). angel always insults his enemies in battle. here, lynch makes angel into this cardboardy silent guy and gives his witticisms to other characters. the lack of jossian undercuts by angel is VERY noticeable.

as for koc--i think it would be far more interesting if angel made the RIGHT decision. and i believe he did. angel was always a big thinker. it would certainly bring angel's comment to wesley about how wesley always made the hard decisions others couldn't--it would make that line even more important.

and i want illyria/wesley interaction, not illyria/spike. i want to see illyria's growing corruption by fred's feelings, and we won't be getting that without wesley--because that was what was bringing all of that out. spike is just illyria's power-tripping need for an amusing minion (we don't need any more silly dork-spike--we need serious drama-WILLIAM). wesley was the only one that illyria remotely had respect for--or human weakness when it was around him.

i think its time we started seeing more pre-"get it done" william and less dork-spike. spike needs to be taken seriously and fast. boning chicks and being illyria's pet isn't going to do that. spike joining angel's fight would be a good start.

lynch's belief that angel's decision was the wrong one has all the signs of him not favoring the character. he's living himself through spike... and that is why this is bad fanfiction. that's mary-sueing. not only is it NOT in character (it negates spike's entire character growth in "hellbound", "a hole in the world" and "not fade away"), it makes spike look bad. and i still don't think lynch gets that.

and again, i repeat: the only one that is going to make illyria interesting is wesley. with anyone else she is a big blue power-trip joke.

**patxshand** · 20-12-07, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post

i trust joss a lot more than lynch. he still doesn't have the flavor down right... especially angel. nothing angel about lynch's angel at all.

Wow. I... don't agree. With his dry wit and badass one-liners, I think Lynch has nailed classic Angel, who--by the way--is an extremely difficult character to write.

all i can hope for is angel, connor and wesley. at least they seem to understand angel.

apparently, spike has regressed into a hypocrite (he was the FIRST to raise his hand). i love spike, and i think lynch doesn't understand him at all (not to mention the utter lack of respect and acknowledgment of angel's intelligence that lynch has given him). i seriously think that lynch's bias shows through strong and clear.

Lynch's bias? Do you feel that Lynch is biased towards Spike or Angel, because you seem to think he portrays *both* of them negatively.

it's not a spuffy vs. bangel thing. it's a spike vs. angel issue. lynch clearly favors spike acting like a goofy moron and does his darnest to remove angel's witticism (which turns him into a cardboard he never was), but in the doing of it, hurts spike, too. i would be thinking that the true spike fans (the ones that don't just want to see him as a butt of a joke or naked) would be outraged even worse than the angel fans.

I'm an Angel fan. Not outraged at all. In fact, I'm thrilled that the only IDW writer to ever nail a character spot on is telling us the story we've all been wanting to hear.

apparently lynch has grudgingly started to admit that some of the things he wanted in angel: after the fall are really falling hard. he's definitely gotten it through his head that urru's art needs a serious overhaul (before, he was just making excuses for it by saying urru was italian--now, he's admitting that they have to do something about it/make something happen sooner because of the oversaturation of butts and breasts and spike's seeming love slave/hefner thing).

and i'm really sick of the change to the demons from guys in latex with either human personalities or almost non-existent background parts (the show) to being all pure demons and absolute morons who talk way too much while our main characters really need that talking space (especially angel). the show had a serious edge that lynch just doesn't get. wesley and connor are the only characters he hasn't focked over so far.

to add to the insult, one of angel's lines in issue #1 (clearly) was given to wesley (it was jolting to think of wesley calling a demon "big boy" or mentioning chasing rainbows... aaaaaack!). angel always insults his enemies in battle. here, lynch makes angel into this cardboardy silent guy and gives his witticisms to other characters. the lack of jossian undercuts by angel is VERY noticeable.

Really? Just a few posts up is King's transcript. Not only does Angel get all the best lines, he gets almost *all* the lines. But, to show how non-cardboard Angel is, I really only have to say one word:

Recompense.

lynch's belief that angel's decision was the wrong one has all the signs of him not favoring the character. he's living himself through spike... and that is why this is bad fanfiction.

Wow. Do you hate puppies to? No, just kidding. But to say that he's living himself through Spike... That's not only disrespectful and presumptious, it's just really wierd. I love Spike, but I don't get the notion that he's a saint. A big part about Spike's character that people forget is that he... loves... sex. He LOVES it. Also, we've gotten about four pages of Spike. Bit early to condem the story.

and again, i repeat: the only one that is going to make illyria interesting is wesley. with anyone else she is a big blue power-trip joke.

She is awesome with Wesley. But she's also awesome by herself. "Big blue power-trip joke." I don't know... She's a really interesting character with *so* much unexplored territory. And bad-assery? She's got it. I'm ready to get down on my knees and *bloody hail* because "After the Fall" is more than I could have ever hoped for.

**KingofCretins** · 20-12-07, 07:13 AM

I think Spike and Angel are both pretty believable in "After the Fall" so far. Spike's hold on the whole champion gig has always been a little tenuous, and he is known best for preferring short cuts, so settling into being a kept man or whatever he is makes a decent amount of sense. And Angel has been downright snarky, to me -- if anything, I thought any mischaracterization was that he wasn't quite terse enough.

apparently lynch has grudgingly started to admit that some of the things he wanted in angel: after the fall are really falling hard. he's definitely gotten it through his head that urru's art needs a serious overhaul (before, he was just making excuses for it by saying urru was italian--now, he's admitting that they have to do something about it/make something happen sooner because of the oversaturation of butts and breasts and spike's seeming love slave/hefner thing).

I didn't sense any change tonally between the two issues. The inking changed, but not the pencils, not much, and this is much better now. But the overall aesthetic hasn't changed at all.

I don't think they are doing anything about the largely unfair criticism of the art, especially since 95% of it was made about a *variant cover* and not the actual issue, which reveals Spike to really be anything but Hef. If anything, he's the house eye candy.

as for koc--i think it would be far more interesting if angel made the RIGHT decision. and i believe he did. angel was always a big thinker. it would certainly bring angel's comment to wesley about how wesley always made the hard decisions others couldn't--it would make that line even more important.

Well, I don't think it's much condolence to the 10 million or so people now enjoying their new hell dimension with the torment and death and all. The whole series basically seems built around Angel trying to buy back the mistake of a frontal assualt on the Senior Partners and the broader, more foolish mistake of going to W&H in the first place.

wesley was the only one that illyria remotely had respect for--or human weakness when it was around him.

Spike was connecting with her in "Time Bomb" about Wesley giving her the cold shoulder, so it makes sense to me that she'd replace Wesley with him as her guide/pet.

lynch's belief that angel's decision was the wrong one has all the signs of him not favoring the character.

Or it's a sign of it being a bad decision. Remember, there's more than one creative credit to this story here -- Lynch is not doing a single thing in this story that has not received the approval of Joss. Season 5 and "After the Fall" are about the failure of heroic compromise and its consequences.

**ThePoet's<3** · 20-12-07, 07:57 AM

I'm a Spike fan - and the day I saw the first cover of Spike surrounded by Koc's Demon Ho's (LOL!

) I thought to myself - "That's my Spike." "Land in Hell and come out smellin' like a rose." That's one of the character's greatest strengths is adaptability! Remember Spike and Adam?? Did you ever see anyone suck up to a demon like Spike did with Adam?? And if you've ever read the "Spike and Dru" comic that James Marsters wrote - again - we find Spike surrounded by luxury with everyone waiting on him hand and foot. No - it's not canon - but apparently others are able to see that about Spike as well - including the actor who protrayed him.

And lets not forget Buffy! When Spike got chipped and thought he was doomed by human and demon alike - he went to the Slayer for protection. When the demon World turned their backs on him - he alligned himself with the Slayer.

patxshand -A big part about Spike's character that people forget is that he... loves... sex. He LOVES it.

Ya think?!?

I'm not disappointed in Lynch's Spike yet... However - I'm for more "Destiny" fights!! I do prefer Kick-A Spike rather than "Pink PJ" Spike...

And about that golden cup - you might be right KoC in your transcipt. If it was not the same cup - I think it was symbolic of that cup. Very symbolic with him tossing it around like so much garbage.

And the Boobage (thanks Pat!) is just something we will have to overlook. It is a comic-book trait. Place your thumb over them...

**sueworld** · 24-12-07, 10:23 PM

Here's Franco's cover for the same issue. Quite a difference in tone eh?

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ne..._Paolo_rgb.jpg

**Moscow Watcher** · 24-12-07, 10:46 PM

I wonder if we have two Wesleys on this cover. (in Shadow Puppets there were three of them)

________
HERBALAIRE VAPORIZERS

**Heather** · 24-12-07, 11:18 PM

Hmm...I was thinking that that might be Groo. But I'm not sure - especially since I haven't even read the comics yet (excluding skimming the transcripts) and I'm not 100% sure if that theory makes sense. To me, it certainly looks like Groo, but I may be (and probably am) wrong.

**Wolfie Gilmore** · 24-12-07, 11:24 PM

Yay! Lornitoons! Can't wait for the green god to come back

**NileQT87** · 25-12-07, 01:21 AM

wesley is holding the scrolls of aberjian (with the shanshu and tro-clon prophecies). YAY! i do hope we get more of the shanshu storyline.

**KingofCretins** · 25-12-07, 01:47 AM

I'm with Heather, I think that's Groo. I've been wondering what ole Groo has been up to. Apparently not getting out of LA, huh?

He looks pretty angry, though. I doubt he'll be happy about Cordy.

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Ats Issue 5 Cover and detail

Ats Issue 5 Cover and detail

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