Was Angel's soul a mistake?

[KingofCretins]

From the outset of learning that Angel is a vampire in Season 1, we find out that he's different, he's special -- he's a Vampire With A Soul. I don't think that there's any dispute that this was first and foremost to make it clear that he wasn't secretly a bad guy and that the audience should embrace him.

In later seasons, while the Buffyverse expanded, it became clear that Joss didn't like characters morally pigeon-holed as a 1 or a 0 based on having a soul. See Season 4, 5, and 6 Spike, Angel Season 5 Harmony, Warren Meers, Knox, Lindsey and Lilah, Willow, Wesley, Anya, etc.

Yet Angel is usually still held out as a "1" or a "0" by fans, depending on whether he had a soul.

Do you think that if Joss had it to do over again, he'd have just fought through the audience's possible hesitance and established Angel as just a vampire with a conscience? Just fonder of humanity and having made a decision to reject evil impulses?

What kind of effect do you think that mythological change would have had throughout the series?

[Mabus]

I don't think that it would have been a good idea, though I don't know whether Joss would have done it. I think it's perfectly appropriate that vampires are much more easily inclined to evil than good, to the extent that change requires at least a little outside help. Making Angel "not so special" would risk making him a pale copy of the already pallid Lestat, to me.

I favor the idea that Angel represents a break with the past--a possible point of change in the relationship between vampires and humanity. And I like the idea that this is totally unintentional on the part of the gypsies who cursed him. We've seen that Angel and his son Connor are the subject of prophecy, and we've seen a number of vampires change because of Angel, or ask him or his associates for help to change--Spike and Darla with considerable success, Harmony with a bit less (so far), and Lawson perhaps least of all. Most interesting from a story perspective, though annoying from a personal one, I like the idea that Angel does not believe this, and treats these vampires pretty much the same as any other.

[Nina]

I loved that Angel is 'special'. He was introduced as the boyfriend of Buffy, and he became the love of her life. He wasn't Prince Charming, Mister Perfect or a rockstar. He was a vampire, it was the start of a strong and moving love story. But he couldn't be evil, so there had to change something. I think the soul was a great idea. His road to redemption made him a 'good' man, but never the perfect boyfriend. So the soul was not a mistake IMO. I also never believed he was the perfect good guy. I think that if you introduce somebody as the most cruel vampire ever ... there is no question that the guy isn't a saint. I knew from the start, that Angel was more than just some kind of mysterious dark hero.

I think the big mistake was that Angel wasn't that special anymore in the end. When Darla and Spike also became souled vampires, when Harmony could be 'not really evil' and when Lawson wasn't a normal vampire either. I think that Angel should be one of a kind to make his story more special and tragic. Vampires should be evil and Angel should be the only 'not evil one'. We saw too many vampires being not that evil and that destroyed the story of Angel and his soul a bit.

BTW, I would love it when there is more information about the soul. I like to know what Angel really is (Liam in the body of a demon or a demon with human emotions etc.).

[Veverka]

Do you think that if Joss had it to do over again, he'd have just fought through the audience's possible hesitance and established Angel as just a vampire with a conscience? Just fonder of humanity and having made a decision to reject evil impulses?

What kind of effect do you think that mythological change would have had throughout the series?

I think having that ambivelance would have been the one ambivelance to tip the series from grey and murky to 'meh. another vampire show'. Each show/book about vampires chooses its own mythology and I think this particular choice was unique- what I think was even more important though, is the backstory we slowly slowly get... Angel didn't get a soul and turn into Mary Poppins, it took him around a century to get used to this, and the sight of a pretty girl to really snap him to reality.

I love Cordy's line in AtS- "You're just a vampire, like everyone else..." All ironic, yes, but pointed too- all of the characters have their idiosyncracies, like real life people. "You're just an individual, like everyone else..."

In this sense, I disagree with Nina, I think having Angel's personal motto be "I am unique, therefore I brood" is neat because initially as we are introduced to him in season one on BtVS we assume he's telling/portraying the truth... but (much as I love the dear boy) he's all too ready to be self indulgent at the drop of a hat...

[Mabus]

I think the big mistake was that Angel wasn't that special anymore in the end. When Darla and Spike also became souled vampires, when Harmony could be 'not really evil' and when Lawson wasn't a normal vampire either. I think that Angel should be one of a kind to make his story more special and tragic. Vampires should be evil and Angel should be the only 'not evil one'. We saw too many vampires being not that evil and that destroyed the story of Angel and his soul a bit.

I don't really agree that Angel wasn't special any more, Nina. Angel was the first--that makes him special even if others follow. Quite possibly it makes him more special.

Darla changed because she and Angel had a son, apparently the first child of a vampire ever. Spike changed because Angel had brought him into contact with Buffy. Harmony changed because Angel and his friends, however reluctantly, gave her the space to try. And Lawson believed he was different because Angel was his sire, and came to Angel hoping to understand himself. Angel is the center. Quite possibly, Angel is the future. That makes him very special indeed.

But at the same time, Angel believes it's all about himself. Or himself and humanity, anyway. There are questions that he never thinks to ask--sure, because the writers think it would be a problem, but what's the explanation in-universe? Angel is, in the end, looking for a reward for himself, and giving up that reward at the end of the series was about despair more than a new kind of hope. I kinda pity the guy.

[kana]

I liked that different people responded to vampirism in their own way. Indeed Spike is a bigger case for moral ambiguity than Angel in many ways but his unique dual persona is what makes Angel special and leads us to wonder the very nature of the soul and identity. Of course we are aware that there have been thematic influences on the metaphysics of the show. Angel needed to become very evil however Spike and Buffy swaying moral compass (mainly season 6 for Buff) was something interesting in itself (for some), however the concept of Angel(us) desire for purity when either soulled or soulless is something I actually found intriguing. In many ways Angel is perhaps less 'good' but actually more complex, as he could be legitimized to be something of a sufferer of disassociative personality disorder, however he both consciously and unconsciously seperates and embraces both sides. He seems to have no control over his darker impulses without a conscience or one could argue he is in complete control but but his inner impulses are so far removed from what they would be if he had his conscience.

Of course this also causes contention with the dreaded definition of the soul. Is the soul him or something inside him? Both concepts have been represented on the show and these theories have also influenced how we look at Angel and of course Spike.

Was Angel's soul a mistake? I don't think so. Although I might have found it interesting if Spike had sought redemption with a soul, but then I kind of liked him getting a soul for other reasons as his soul journey was altogether different.

Hmm interesting stuff.

[ThePoet's<3]

I think he could have done that with Angel if he hadn't come up with The Curse. After all - it works for Mick in Moonlight - he's just a vampire who wants to do good and also for Nick in Forever Night (which originated before Angel) who also fought his natural instincts to be a vampire who wanted to do good.

IMO - Angel's curse is what makes his soul different. It will be interesting to me as to what they will do with Spike's soul in ATF... Spike doesn't have a curse to keep him in check as Angel does...

[vampmogs]

I think the curse works fine. If it had created a situation where Angel as a character could do nothing but right things then I'd have an issue with it. But Angel doesn't have to be Angelus to make mistakes, or be dark at times. I think his character is still interesting even with the distinction between his character and his vampire self.

[Ehlwyen]

Do you think that if Joss had it to do over again, he'd have just fought through the audience's possible hesitance and established Angel as just a vampire with a conscience? Just fonder of humanity and having made a decision to reject evil impulses?

What kind of effect do you think that mythological change would have had throughout the series?

I always thought that the vampire's loss of a soul is what made the Jossverse vampires unique. Vampires are often portrayed as romanticized figures. I liked that Joss made them all ugly and morally bankrupt. That being turned wasn't a thing to desire, it was something to fear. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it in other vampire stories, but I think that this was an interesting decision on Joss's part.

Having Angel as the lone souled vampire to evoke that romanticism made the storyline unique to the show. In addition it allowed for a direct comparison of Jossverse to Anne Rice's verse which was the prevailing vampire lore at the time.

Besides BTVS was never about the vampires as much as it was about the girl who fought them. It would have been a completely different story if vampires were seen as individuals with choice that Buffy would have to consider each one individually on whether she could subdue and reform or just dust.

So personally, the changing the mythology to eliminate the importance of the soul would have made the show completely different and perhaps indistinguishable from many other vampire stories.

I think the big mistake was that Angel wasn't that special anymore in the end. When Darla and Spike also became souled vampires, when Harmony could be 'not really evil' and when Lawson wasn't a normal vampire either. I think that Angel should be one of a kind to make his story more special and tragic. Vampires should be evil and Angel should be the only 'not evil one'. We saw too many vampires being not that evil and that destroyed the story of Angel and his soul a bit.

I agree. Granted I really enjoyed Harmony and Darla. But Spike becoming souled so that Buffy would love him? That was lame to everything the show had seemingly stood for. Spike and Angel bickering like the Odd Couple in S5 diluted any coolness factor either of them had.

Personally I find the root of this repetitiveness stemming from the spinoff of ATS leaving Buffy with holes that Joss unfortunately tried to directly fill rather than move the show in a different way. When Spike didn't work to fill Cordelia's spot as the source of blunt truth and comedy, Anya was given a greater part and Spike was shifted into filling the role of harmless vampire. At least then it was an interesting parallel of higher power v. government technology. When Spike actually become a souled vampire rather than reformed the storyline lost a lot of the ground it had defined.

IMO - Angel's curse is what makes his soul different. It will be interesting to me as to what they will do with Spike's soul in ATF... Spike doesn't have a curse to keep him in check as Angel does...

I really like the idea of the curse. Curses are so twisted and usually inescapable. It's quite fun and interesting how the curse does Angel and the world good rather than destroy him. The curse is one of the most interesting parts of BTVS for me.

I do agree it could be interesting in how the two differently deal with their souls.

[Tigger96]

I believe the soul and the conscience are tied together - you can't have one w/o the other. Spike was a vampire on a leash, still an evil being. The product of a government chip. Spike would have gone on a killing spree the moment the chip was removed if he hadn't gotten his soul first. The guy was robbing people to keep himself in "blood & smokes". He didn't really care what happened to those around him w/o a soul. I believe when he acted like it he was just really enjoying being accepted into the fold.

The curse attached to Angel's soul, first of all makes for a great star-crossed lover's theme, which I am a sucker for. But, aside from that, it give Angel a reason to fight. Yes, he cares about those around him (mostly), but there is also a deeper meaning to all of this for him. Spike fights for the thrill of it...there's no real purpose for him. Angel, on the other hand, is seeking redemption and, if he stays vigilant, there is a reward at the end of the very long, twisted road for him. I believe this all gives deeper meaning to the things he does. He does it for the good of others, but ultimately, he will be rewarded in the end.

I don't believe Joss would have it any other way.

[Serafir]

Yet Angel is usually still held out as a "1" or a "0" by fans, depending on whether he had a soul.

The fans are wrong No really. I can`t understand how someone who has watched all five seasons interpret the character as just plain white or black. Even Angelus is gray, in our reaction to the character. Awfully charming on one end while you really want to stake him on the other. And Angel? Throw something he cares about into to the mix, like a blond or a son and he snaps. For all his good intentions, he stumbles and falls during the seasons, up to the very end. His road is not black or white, it`s murky at best.

Do you think that if Joss had it to do over again, he'd have just fought through the audience's possible hesitance and established Angel as just a vampire with a conscience? Just fonder of humanity and having made a decision to reject evil impulses?

I have watched some episodes of Moonlight where they have done that, and I find that the curse thing in Angel works better. It gives the show and the character a whole new purpose. Rooted deeply into something that drives not only the main character, but also those around him. It adds depth and motivation. Even the limitations it forces on the character, adds to that. Every theme that the episodes brings up relates to that background, that drive.

What kind of effect do you think that mythological change would have had throughout the series?

If he had done that it would have been a lot less interesting to watch I think, as Moonlight is for me. But that series has a whole lot of other problems as well.