Beat You To Death - Sanctuary

[BlasterBoy]

Nice title, eh? Well, this topic has been discussed numerous times and I thought I should finally bring back this discussion.

In 1x19 "Sanctuary", Buffy hears that Faith came to L.A, so she goes there to make sure Angel is okay. of course, she does not contact him and just goes there, opens the door, and decides to search his basement, only to find Faith and Angel hugging. Okay, I was totally biased there, sorry

Anyways, Buffy is furious. Angel yells, Buffy yells. And, Angel hits her. What the hell? Should he have done this? Not only that, but Faith tries to apologize for her sins and Buffy goes, "If you apologize to me, I will beat you to death." Pretty harsh, especially for an apology. Did she have the right to say that?

What are your views on everything here? In this episode, on these topics, on this relationship between these three, what are your views?

I'm only going to answer the Faith/Buffy one for now. She did not have the right, imo. She was wrecked and saddened. And her turn was Buffy's fault....a lot! She repented and tried to change. She was doing so. And all Buffy can do is threaten to kill her.

[kana]

Buffy is definitely anger girl. She believes she has a right to vengeance after what Faith did to her but I'm not sure if she actually meant she would kill her, she most likely looking for some sort of justice for what Faith did to her.

I don't blame Angel for hitting Buffy, it was more or less self defence and the defence of Faith and as he said, Buffy the stronger party. I think Buffy hitting Angel in the first place was pretty harsh not to mention he general treatment of Angel.

To be honest, i think Buffy was just a little pissy. once she calmed down she realised it was Angel's call.

This said, I don't think Faith's turn was really Buffy's fault and she did on numerous occasions try to help Faith. Faith herself wondered if she could. The only person who believed it was Angel.

[BlasterBoy]

Buffy is definitely anger girl. She believes she has a right to vengeance after what Faith did to her but I'm not sure if she actually meant she would kill her, she most likely looking for some sort of justice for what Faith did to her.

It doesn't matter. Faith is doing what's right, well, now anyways, and Buffy is not being herself and just going insane on her.

I don't blame Angel for hitting Buffy, it was more or less self defence and the defence of Faith and as he said, Buffy the stronger party. I think Buffy hitting Angel in the first place was pretty harsh not to mention he general treatment of Angel.

I don't blame Angel at all, either. I actually edged him on Buffy really deserved that. Just walking in and starting to judge Angel and threatening Faith! And then, she tried to go at Faith and she hit Angel. She was going to hit him again, but he blocked, and by instinct, hit her back. And she's all shocked because no one can hit the magnificent Buffy

To be honest, i think Buffy was just a little pissy. once she calmed down she realised it was Angel's call.

I don't agree. At the station, she started saying how she moved on and how she found someone better than Angel and who didn't lie to her and then, when he says that he can't move on, all Buffy says is, "Faith wins again." She never calmed down. Never. Even on the roof, she erupted.

This said, I don't think Faith's turn was really Buffy's fault and she did on numerous occasions try to help Faith. Faith herself wondered if she could. The only person who believed it was Angel.

I think it was Buffy's fault, partly. I mean, Buffy was supposed to be her friend. They were friends, but then, Buffy ignored her, as did everyone else, including her watcher and Giles. It was crazy. Also, Willow just decided she didn't like her, I guess. But that's another debate in another forum

[vampmogs]

Ok first off, I have to say I disagree with basically everything you have said

Firstly, it was not Buffy's fault that Faith turned dark whatsoever. It is nobody's fault but Faiths and the blame shouldn't go on anybody but her.

Buffy tried extremely hard with Faith, after Faith tried to frame her for murder Buffy still offered her a second chance and tried to help her, then Faith attempts to steal Buffy's boyfriend behind her back and torture her to death. At this point Buffy shouldn't owe Faith anything and yet when Faith awakens from her coma, Buffy says "it doesn't have to be this way" and offers to give Faith yet another chance, yet instead Faith decides to steal her body, beat and kidnap her mother and sleep with her boyfriend. So not only did Buffy give Faith more chances than most people would, but each time Faith threw it back in Buffy's face and somehow you are going to blame Buffy for Faith turning dark?

and then this;

I think it was Buffy's fault, partly. I mean, Buffy was supposed to be her friend. They were friends, but then, Buffy ignored her, as did everyone else, including her watcher and Giles.

No one ignored Faith whatsoever, Faith continued to go on her "unannounced walkabouts" instead of doing her duty as a slayer, so it is a little hard for Giles or someone like Wesley to keep an eye on her.

It was crazy. Also, Willow just decided she didn't like her, I guess. But that's another debate in another forum

Willow didn't just decide she didn't like her. Willow didn't like Faith because Faith tried to frame Buffy for murder and then nearly strangled Xander to death, hardly a surprise she isn't Faith's biggest fan is it?

I'll move onto some other points now:

It doesn't matter. Faith is doing what's right, well, now anyways, and Buffy is not being herself and just going insane on her.

Buffy is a human being not a robot, she can't just shut off her emotions because Faith decides now that she is going to change. It'd be highly unrealistic if Buffy could do this. As I've already mentioned above, just look at the things she has done.

1)Frame Buffy for murder
2)Betray her and side with the Mayor
3)Try to steal her boyfriend
4)Try to torture her to death
5)Try to kill her boyfriend
6)Kidnaps and beats her mother
7)Steals her body
8)Sleeps with her boyfriend

... and Buffy is supposed to what? Be happy with Faith? Just forgive Faith? Shrug her shoulders and say "Oh she wants to change *now* after I've already given her so many chances, so I'll just not be angry at her for attacking my mother, sleeping with my boyfriend, stealing my body and trying to set me up for murder" Of course she isn't, she has every right to be angry at Faith and Faith doesn't deserve Buffy to be nice to her whatsoever.

And it is hardly a surprise Buffy is skeptical that Faith will change, she gave Faith a second chance back in s3 and Faith betrayed her.

I don't blame Angel at all, either. I actually edged him on Buffy really deserved that. Just walking in and starting to judge Angel and threatening Faith! And then, she tried to go at Faith and she hit Angel. She was going to hit him again, but he blocked, and by instinct, hit her back. And she's all shocked because no one can hit the magnificent Buffy

Buffy wasn't hurt that Angel hit her because she believes she is magnificent, she was hurt because as she actually says "You did it for her" The girl who I repeat, had done all those horrible things to her. I don't agree with Buffy hitting Angel and don't have a problem with Angel hitting Buffy back because it was self defence, but Angel isn't a complete non jerk in this either.

Angel has no right to push Buffy away from this, just because Faith is now in "his" city, doesn't mean Buffy has no say in what goes on. He was incredibly heartless and rude to basically shut Buffy off saying it had nothing to do with her, up until this point basically everything about Faith had to do with Buffy. She was running from Buffy and the horrible things she had done with her, it is ludicrous to say it didn't have anything to do with her.

Secondly, Angel identifies with Faith because her story is much like his own, he states every soul is worth saving but notice the way he treats Lindsey. He doesn't reject to offer Lindsey any help but is less than supportive with Lindsey, in fact he doesn't particularly care if Lindsey kills himself trying to prove to Angel he can be good, all Angel says is that would be a start. Angel is very picky about who he decides he should put his effort into trying to save.

[ciderdrinker]

For my answer I'll quote what was said of this episode at Superjer.com (http://www.superjer.com/angel/1x19_sanctuary.php)

I was reminded of 4x17: Inside Out watching Buffy, where everything is the opposite of what it should be, or what we'd expect it to be. In this episode the figures of past and present evil (Angel and Faith) are the champions and carriers of burdens, with the desire to do good for others and the utmost belief in redemption. Maybe the latter is in self-interest, but that's not always for the worst, as we see the belief in humanity it's instilled in Angel. Then on the other side, we have the traditional figures of heroism and good (Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Kate the Police woman) wrapped up in self-interest and hell-bent on revenge.


Buffy's not unjustified in wanting it, but Angel is damned accurate when he tells her she doesn't have a right to it. But first I'll discuss her and Faith, for whom she appears as the embodiment of every cruel deed Faith has done to the innocent. This entire episode is essentially about ?sorry;' meaning it, not saying it, and in the minds of most, meaning it constitutes owning up to your actions, and taking steps to never let them happen again. When the mortified and shaking Faith summons the courage to actually say sorry it's moving, since we the viewers have followed her in every step. But Buffy hasn't; furious and unaware of the change that's occurred in her enemy's life, she threatens to beat her right to death in response in what's probably the most chilling moment of the episode.

I think he's got it spot on, if you watch This Year's Girl, Who Are You, Five By Five and then Sanctuary back to back, you can see how Faith has changed in the course of the episodes. Buffy only sees half of this (the worst part) and Angel sees how low she has gone before she decides to ask for help. He can see her genuine desire to change, and wants to help desperately but Buffy is too angry to see it.

When they argue about Faith, Angel realises that it's the anger talking and he has to do something drastic immediately to stop Buffy letting it take over, and consequently Faith running out on her chance at redemption.

Also Superjer has this to say about it:-

I doubt I'm solitary in declaring that Buffy was something of a bitch this episode (Faith brings that out in her), but I was never in confusion about where she was coming from. What I liked most about her standoff with Angel was how perfectly it summed up the total loss of control that was their relationship.

[major_buffy_fan]

buffy.angel.faith

I see all the points raised i mean buffy just went down to angels basement uninvited and goes off on one when she sees angel and faith it was good faith was trying to redeem. What buffy said i don't think was out of line becuase the last time buffy saw faith she had made her life a living hell then next time she sees faith she is hugging her ex i think she had fair right to b angry.

As for angel the night before faith has tortered and nearly killed wesley then the day after she gets a warm bed and donuts seems abit unfair if you ask me

[vampmogs]

As for angel the night before faith has tortered and nearly killed wesley then the day after she gets a warm bed and donuts seems abit unfair if you ask me

Agreed, Angel went from being overly nice to Faith in 'Sanctuary' to overly unhelpful to Lindsey in 'Blind Date.' In both cases he went to the extreme.

In 'Sanctuary' Angel saw himself and Faith and that was that, he didn't care about anyone else who had been hurt by Faith, it was just Faith. No matter what she did to Buffy and Wes Angel was cold and rude about it, and whilst saving someone's soul can be important if you are going to be heartless to anyone else in the process then IMO your not doing it right. As Wes states, "don't you dare take the moral highground with me!" which Angel did and had no right to do. Buffy was acting like a bitch (she has a good reason to) but Angel was an ass to her as well.

[KingofCretins]

Angel's chewing out of Buffy in "Sanctuary" was one of the more-often-than-you-think times that she honestly deserved it. Angel's not in the business of giving up on folks, and Lindsey was actually his biggest moment of weakness in that regard.

Buffy isn't the only one Faith hurt. She tried to strangle Xander to death, she held a knife to Willow's throat, and tried to kill Angel. Buffy did not have a monopoly on grudges against Faith, so she really doesn't get to act like it was about her feelings and not about Faith's future.

Wesley had a legitimate point, but he was mature enough to also see the basic truth that saving Faith was the right thing to do. If Wes and Angel had a much, much different relationship, Wes would have said very much the same thing to Angel about Faith as Giles said to Buffy about Angel in "Revelations".

[vampmogs]

Angel's chewing out of Buffy in "Sanctuary" was one of the more-often-than-you-think times that she honestly deserved it. Angel's not in the business of giving up on folks, and Lindsey was actually his biggest moment of weakness in that regard.

Angel though, was as convinced as anyone else in 'Five By Five' about what Faith needs and wants, and that is a battle to the death. Run by his own emotions Angel very angrily sneers "that's what the lady wants" and of all people, is protested by Wesley. Angel had the opportunity to see Faith breakdown, Buffy did not, so it is IMO hypocritical of Angel to give Buffy the big soul saving lecture after he was in just the state of mind she was, until he was fortunate enough to see a change in Faith. Buffy on the otherhand always wanted to see a change in Faith, right up until after she awakens from her coma, it isn't a surprise she is suddenly skepitcal of the idea now.

Buffy isn't the only one Faith hurt. She tried to strangle Xander to death, she held a knife to Willow's throat, and tried to kill Angel. Buffy did not have a monopoly on grudges against Faith, so she really doesn't get to act like it was about her feelings and not about Faith's future.

Willow opts for "beat the crap out of her" as a worthy plan after learning she has awakened, Xander in no way disagrees with this option. It was actually Buffy who brings up the questions of her being sorry or maybe wanting to change, Willow and Xander seemed to be as angry and aggressive towards Faith as Buffy was.

And really isn't it about Buffy's feelings? About everyone who Faith hurt and their feelings? Her wanting to change doesn't mean she shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of all the people she "spat on." She does, and no one should IMO, feel obliged to tip toe around her and just forgive her. That takes time, Buffy had every right to be hurt, to be extremely angry and IMO it is completely natural for her to want revenge. Same kind of deal with Wesley. Until Faith directly hurts you herself it is easy for them to say that she is just a sick girl, but Wes' opinion quickly changes when Faith tortures him.

[kana]

Angel though, was as convinced as anyone else in 'Five By Five' about what Faith needs and wants, and that is a battle to the death. Run by his own emotions Angel very angrily sneers "that's what the lady wants" and of all people, is protested by Wesley. Angel had the opportunity to see Faith breakdown, Buffy did not, so it is IMO hypocritical of Angel to give Buffy the big soul saving lecture after he was in just the state of mind she was, until he was fortunate enough to see a change in Faith. Buffy on the otherhand always wanted to see a change in Faith, right up until after she awakens from her coma, it isn't a surprise she is suddenly skepitcal of the idea now.

But interestingly enough, Angel was pissed at Faith and for what he did to him:
Poisoned him
Hurt his friends
Hurt the woman he still loves

Angel's not a robot either but he still believes she can change.

It's not surprising that Buffy feels the way she does and Angel even says this will happen.

Angel: Just because you've decided to change, doesn't mean that the world is ready for you...

However Angel is not bein cold or hypocrital. He is choosing what he believes is right over Buffy. He thinks Faith can change and ultimately he's right. If he is help Faith he can't let Buffy or his feelings for her get in the way.

Is it personal? Well yes, Angel identifies with Faith but this is part of his mission. It's a double edged sword (Buffy's feelings and instincts have both served her well and got her and her friends in trouble) but it's a risk Angel is going to have to take if he is going to be a soul saver. Angel actually wanted to talk things out however, his belief in what he is doing is no more dogmatic than Buffy herself at the best of times (if we are talking about hypocrasy) however Buffy for the most part has been right, in this instance it was Angel's call though, a point Buffy later admitted in part once she'd calmed down.

Willow opts for "beat the crap out of her" as a worthy plan after learning she has awakened, Xander in no way disagrees with this option. It was actually Buffy who brings up the questions of her being sorry or maybe wanting to change, Willow and Xander seemed to be as angry and aggressive towards Faith as Buffy was.

And it's totally understandable. It's a shame though. Faith's turn was her own responsibility and although none of it was Buffy's fault, she did have a role in it. Faith was never going to respond to Buffy. When she sees Buffy, she only sees what is wrong in herself. However As Buffy was right about Angel's identification, Faith may have been right about Buffy not understanding what it's like to be on the other side. However Buffy later learns about Faith's slayer mentality in Buffy vs Dracula but to her credit, she uses these predatory desires to become a better Slayer.

And really isn't it about Buffy's feelings? About everyone who Faith hurt and their feelings?

Well, as far as Angel is concerned not if it has a detrimental effect. Dispite the jelly doughnuts, Angel's words are tough. He knows how bad she feels, he knows she'd prefer death as it would be the easier option. He also believes Faith should and will suffer for the rest o her life but that's part of having caused pain and suffering with a conscience.

Her wanting to change doesn't mean she shouldn't have to deal with the consequences of all the people she "spat on."

Angel also believes that, he also believes that a standoff with Buffy wouldn't help, nor would holding a Slayer against her will in prison. Angel understands that Faith is not without guilt and the emotional consequences of her actions will be her punishment. Thematically with Faith we see this to be true.

She does, and no one should IMO, feel obliged to tip toe around her and just forgive her.

Angel never asks Buffy to forgive her as such but if Angel is to help Faith on the path to redemption, he can't let Buffy get in the way.

That takes time, Buffy had every right to be hurt, to be extremely angry and IMO it is completely natural for her to want revenge. Same kind of deal with Wesley. Until Faith directly hurts you herself it is easy for them to say that she is just a sick girl, but Wes' opinion quickly changes when Faith tortures him.

I agree and let us not forget Angel was also hurt too, but he also understands how Faith feels better than anyone else which is why he was the best person to help her.

[Nina]

I am on the 'Angel was right' train.

Angel's goal is helping people who need help. He saw the breakdown of Faith and decided that Faith needed help. I think he did what he should do, he let her calm down and gave her the time to turn herself in.

I understand Buffy's anger and her viewpoint and I understand that she didn't want to help Faith. I also can see her viewpoint that Angel picked Faith above her. I disagree with her hitting and I was cheering for Angel when he told her to back off, on the end. But I understood were she came from.

I didn't like that it was Angel who had to clear the air in the episode afterwards. I believe that Buffy should be the first to say sorry too Angel. She was acting emotional and she hurt Angel.

[buffyholic]

I admit that this a very delicate issue, I?m torn about it. For one, it?s true that Buffy always tried to help Buffy and Faith in turn always pissed her off and refused her help. She kidnapped Joyce, she stole Buffy?s body, tried to frame her, well a lot of things and those things weren?t Buffy?s fault, they were Faith?s. Faith was just too screwed up to see what she was really doing.
But on the other hand, Buffy had no right to barge in on Angel?s house and play the victim and being all judgemental. I mean, Faith did a lot of shitty things but was trying to amend and Buffy is just( sorry but she is) a bitch here and goes off playing the victim. She just wanted revenge on Faith.
So, yeah, I?m torn between two sides. I?m not sure who?s exactly right!

[patxshand]

Buffy was righteously angry, though she was wrong to take that anger out on Angel. Angel was trying to save Faith. Hell, Buffy had every reason to want to kill Faith, but she should have at least listened to what Angel had to say.

The only person Angel had wronged, in this situation, was Wesley. Everyone talks about how much they cried when Faith broke down, but how about the true heartbreaking moment in "Five by Five" when Wesley, who had just been tortured, rushes out to save Angel--his best friend--from beind killed by the psycho who just tortured hm... only to see Angel hugging and comforting said pyshco?

[ThePoet's<3]

It was a moment when I thought it was almost OOC for Buffy to act the way she did. I know she was mad at Faith but I don't think I have ever seen her so heartless and it was very strange - came off immature and bitchy. She of all people knew what Faith had gone through.

But in the end it was Angel who realized the self-destruction and self-hate within Faith because he had been down that road before.

And the exchange between Buffy and Angel - again - I never liked when either vampire (Angel/Spike) or Buffy hit each other but I always viewed the fights as two "super-heros" fighting rather than a male and female fighting. Angel was right to hit her back. It was like she was a "super-hero" on a power trip. It put her in her place. You are the Slayer. Act like one.

[Tigger96]

Regarding Angel hitting Buffy, it's good to remember that she first hit him, and that was after trying to stop her from attacking Faith. It was a reflex reaction, I believe. However, I do see Buffy's pain in the fact that he did it for "her".

As far as Buffy telling Faith she'd kick her ass...Yes, Faith was shaking and it took a lot for her to work up the courage to begin to apologize, but I can see Buffy's point of view. She was betrayed, continuously, by someone she had done nothing more than reach out to. She had tried in vain for years to help Faith. Her first reaction when Faith woke from her coma was not to kick her ass, but to find her and try to talk to her. Only after the final betrayal of attacking her family and stealing her body did Buffy give up on Faith. And this was only weeks before. She was not yet ready to hear Faith's apology...she was still extremely, and rightfull, pissed. Yes, she was a bitch, but I can see where she is coming from in that she is just not ready to hear it. Would we have liked Buffy any better if Faith had apologized and Buffy refused her? This way, Buffy doesn't have to make a decision about that aspect of their relationship yet.

And, I must say this...in no way, shape, or form do I believe that Buffy had anything to do w/ Faith's turning. She chose that path of her own free will. She chose the easy way out, cuz she hated herself. And Willow didn't hate Faith until after Faith had attacked her friends. Willow was one of Faith's supporters, until she turned on them. Same with Xander. These guys don't dislike people for the sake of it, but they were given VERY good reasons to not like Faith. Buffy is the only one who really held out any hope for the girl, and was thanked w/ a slap in the face.

[NimNams]

Right or wrong, that Buffy line was badass.

I think they all have valid reasons to be ticked off. Angel hitting Buffy felt a little forced, though. Maybe if this was the climax of simmering tension lasting several episodes. But just like that? Yellow card on that play.

[Serafir]

I only followed Angel when the series aired, not Buffy. I knew where the character came from of course, and had seen a few episodes of Buffy, but that series didn`t really grab me, mainly because of the themes. By that time I was over the whole teenage angst and I just couldn`t relate at all. So when this stuck up Buffy enters and go all "high and mighty and listen to me cause I am right", I thought - well.. since I know theres many Buffy fans here I will keep that to myself ...

She had no right to be there, no right to judge.