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  • To Have Spike Or Not To Have Spike

    In Season 5, did you like that Spike was there?

    Personally? NO WAY! I thought he was used as comic relief and was there to brag about him having a soul and saving the world. It destroyed the whole fact that he HAD sacrificed himself and everything he had struggled with became a joke. It's insanity. His "comic relief" was annoying, because it was so out of place and destroyed his character, and in a bad way.

    I like to think of Spike without ATS Season 5, because it makes the character not as horrible
    39
    Yep, He Was Awesome!
    58.97%
    23
    No, He Sucked Royally!
    30.77%
    12
    Eh, I Don't Really Care
    7.69%
    3
    Spike Was In Season 5?
    2.56%
    1

  • #2
    I picked 'no' even though one of the reasons I like season 5 was the Spike/Angel dynamic. Bringing Spike to Ats was imo a crappy idea crappily done. He was only there to make sarcastic remarks and try and steal Angel's shanshu prophecy for himself in most of the episodes. He took time away from characters I actually like and HEY DIDN'T HE DIE IN BUFFY SEASON 7?! It completely took away the significance of that.
    I had enough of Spike around season 4 of Buffy so no, I didn't want him on Angel...
    No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ShinyFirefly View Post
      I picked 'no' even though one of the reasons I like season 5 was the Spike/Angel dynamic. Bringing Spike to Ats was imo a crappy idea crappily done. He was only there to make sarcastic remarks and try and steal Angel's shanshu prophecy for himself in most of the episodes. He took time away from characters I actually like and HEY DIDN'T HE DIE IN BUFFY SEASON 7?! It completely took away the significance of that.
      I had enough of Spike around season 4 of Buffy so no, I didn't want him on Angel...
      I agree about the Spike/Angel dynamic part. The Caveman vs. Astronaut fight was hilarious, imo. One of the best comedic moments of the season!

      I totally forgot about him stealing Angel's prophecy just because it was Angel's. That pissed me off.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by BlasterBoy View Post
        I agree about the Spike/Angel dynamic part. The Caveman vs. Astronaut fight was hilarious, imo. One of the best comedic moments of the season!
        I just watched A Hole in the World yesterday. Has some great funny and serious Spike/Angel moments. Sometimes something good-ish comes out of something bad I guess. I still think Spike was a bad idea though.
        No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by BlasterBoy View Post
          I agree about the Spike/Angel dynamic part. The Caveman vs. Astronaut fight was hilarious, imo. One of the best comedic moments of the season!
          Here's the problem--Joss was an ass and fired Charisma. So they had to bring SOMEONE in to fill her shoes, and they decided to bring in a character already popular in the verse, who had a history with Angel already illustrated, and who had a similar wise-cracking humor to Cordy. I get their logic, and I would rather have a character who's already part of the verse and with whom Angel has a long history come than some random new character--so in that respect I think Spike was a good idea. I also ADORE Spangel , lol, and it was pretty much the only ship worth any interest in season 5 anyway, so for that reason I also am glad Spike was there--Spangel really is one of the only things that make season 5 worth watching honestly....

          But on the other hand I think bringing Spike to ATS did a disservice to Spike, and I don't like how his character was on ATS--he def. got a bit whiney at times, and brought out some ick in Angel too....plus, I love Spike's journey of redemption on Buffy from villain to self-sacrificing hero who saves the world, and I would have preferred Spike's story to end there, nobly and at peace--I feel so bad for him, having to come back and have the crappy existence on ATS that he had! And it just messes up that whole journey he had on Buffy....plus, it opened up the Spuffy can of worms, when I think I might have preferred that ended with the beautiful fiery handclasp....

          So overall, I don't really like Spike coming onto Angel in season 5, though I wouldn't say he sucked persay....but season 5 sure did!
          Promise that you'll return to me.

          icon by sireesanswar

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          • #6
            I didn't like the idea at first, but I love that Spike's in Angel. He fits in really well and has a great dynamic with Angel. As much as I like Cordelia (pre season 4 anyway), I honestly didn't miss her that much.
            But yep stealing the prophecy pissed me off, it's just a slap in the face to Angel.. like anything he ever did, didn't mean anything because Spike is still an immature moron sometimes. Did anyone else even pick up on that.. especially in Destiny, he's such a kid. I don't know, doesn't seem like anything bad sticks to Spike Not fair. I don't get how he gets to step in and go 'right, I'll have that.' Doesn't give a crap about Angel.. which I suppose, well duh. I think my problem is that I want them to be friends. Angel clearly takes the high road and sacrifices anything he may have wanted just for him.. which is pretty much what Angel does, but it's like no-one notices.
            Anyway, got my Spike complaining out, so yay Spike in Angel!
            sigpic

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            • #7
              I felt Spike took far to much attention from the other characters and quite frankly it ruined his character mostly for me as well. He was just getting better after 'Chosen' in my eyes and then I had to watch him regress into a snarky, immature vamp again and it got tired fast.

              Whilst the Spike and Angel dynamic could be interesting, I didn't like how it seemed to push back the Angel/Wes and Angel/Gunn friendship throughout the season, two friendships the show had invested in throughout the series.

              And Spike is no subsitute for Cordy, not even close.

              ~ Banner by Nina ~

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              • #8
                Yeah, well Spike was meant to be a replacement for Cordy in season 4 of Buffy, but they quickly figured out that didn't work- they had Anya, and Spike had a different kind of snark with none of the pureness that was Cordelia.

                And while I do love Spike as a character in general, and adore a few of the season 5 Spike/Angel moments... no, better if he hadn't been there.

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                • #9
                  Ha! *Looks at icon* Of course I loved him there!!

                  I liked AtS very much before, but I really loved it when wee Spikey joined the show.

                  As others have already said I loved the Angel/Spike interactions, and I agree with Joss comments on the season 5 DVD commentary when he said Spike was the perfect partner for Angel, and who would have thought it would be another blond.

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                  • #10
                    Omg I love spike in season 5, I'm watching Angel through again on tv and its got to season 5, and its a relief I think after all the death and apocolypse the gang and us watching have been through its nice to have comedy and new blood (you could call it) in the show again, and it is good that he has history with angel and his freindly banter he has with him is hilarious to watch!

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                    • #11
                      I did actually like Spike in Season 5. He was petty but then so was Angel. Spike is more extroverted so he is more expressive of his dislike of Angel but Angel's attitude could be just as childish. They essentially bring out the worst in each other.

                      I don't think Spike's only role was to be a 'LiteAngel' or simply as comic relief, he was exploring his own role of being a champion outside Buffy's validation. His journey was more about finding out what being a hero means to him. At first Buffy was the reason then he used Angel as a bench mark, but when he got a cup of perpetual nothing, he realised he had to find his own purpose. He joined Angel but because he was beginning to believe in the mission itself.

                      So in short he was so much more than just comic relief.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kana View Post
                        I did actually like Spike in Season 5. He was petty but then so was Angel. Spike is more extroverted so he is more expressive of his dislike of Angel but Angel's attitude could be just as childish. They essentially bring out the worst in each other.

                        I don't think Spike's only role was to be a 'LiteAngel' or simply as comic relief, he was exploring his own role of being a champion outside Buffy's validation. His journey was more about finding out what being a hero means to him. At first Buffy was the reason then he used Angel as a bench mark, but when he got a cup of perpetual nothing, he realised he had to find his own purpose. He joined Angel but because he was beginning to believe in the mission itself.

                        So in short he was so much more than just comic relief.
                        Um, he did not have a "journey" at all in Angel, imo. His whole decision to drink the cup to become a human was solely to piss Angel off. That's not a champion. That's a selfish jackass. That did not make him realize he needed a purpose at all, imo. I don't remember a part where he was drama, except for "Hellbound". And, yes, he believed in saving people. He did in Season 7, as well.

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                        • #13
                          I LOVED having Spike in AtS!! And especially after the debaucle Season 4 had been - IMO. Jasmine was a nightmare!

                          I didn't like they used him mostly for comic relief - and they did seem to begin to tear down what Spike had done in Season 7 BtVS. BUT - I thought getting Spike and Angel together as a misguided team was just wonderful!! And it continued my Spike love for one more year!!!!
                          -TP<3
                          "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                          - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                          Spuffy Videos!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BlasterBoy View Post
                            Um, he did not have a "journey" at all in Angel, imo. His whole decision to drink the cup to become a human was solely to piss Angel off. That's not a champion. That's a selfish jackass. That did not make him realize he needed a purpose at all, imo.
                            From Soul Purpose
                            Doyle: Not like this. You just helped a person when there wasn't anything in it for you. That's not like the Spike I know.
                            Spike: Oh, is that right? And what Spike is that?
                            Doyle: The Spike that's only out for himself. The one who does good deeds to impress...women.

                            to

                            From Shells
                            Spike: This is what she would have wanted. (looks at Angel) It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. (looks out the window) The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.

                            Earlier in the season Spike shows that he wants to get away from Angel and W&H, but he doesn't. Spike chose to stay and help Angel out after he had been offered a way out (especially at the beginning of AHITW) He didn't do it just because he had affection to Fred, but because he knew he was doing the right thing.

                            I agree that at first Spike was acting exactly like he was in S2 of Buffy, but I guess Angel brings that out in him. Once he got used to being around Angel, saw that he had changed a fair bit too, he calmed down. From Soul Purpose to NFA, Spike to me is the same as he was on S7 of BtVS only without all the simpering "I love you Buffy" stuff. That's a journey in my eyes.

                            I loved Spike on S5, but then S5 is my second favourite season (after S2). We needed some comic relief after the huge dramas and conflicts of S4. Spike was exactly the right person for that, but just like everyone of Angel's team, he could see the importance of the mission and chose it willingly.
                            sigpic

                            Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ciderdrinker View Post
                              From Soul Purpose
                              Doyle: Not like this. You just helped a person when there wasn't anything in it for you. That's not like the Spike I know.
                              Spike: Oh, is that right? And what Spike is that?
                              Doyle: The Spike that's only out for himself. The one who does good deeds to impress...women.

                              to

                              From Shells
                              Spike: This is what she would have wanted. (looks at Angel) It's what I want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. (looks out the window) The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. That's where I live.

                              Earlier in the season Spike shows that he wants to get away from Angel and W&H, but he doesn't. Spike chose to stay and help Angel out after he had been offered a way out (especially at the beginning of AHITW) He didn't do it just because he had affection to Fred, but because he knew he was doing the right thing.

                              I agree that at first Spike was acting exactly like he was in S2 of Buffy, but I guess Angel brings that out in him. Once he got used to being around Angel, saw that he had changed a fair bit too, he calmed down. From Soul Purpose to NFA, Spike to me is the same as he was on S7 of BtVS only without all the simpering "I love you Buffy" stuff. That's a journey in my eyes.

                              I loved Spike on S5, but then S5 is my second favourite season (after S2). We needed some comic relief after the huge dramas and conflicts of S4. Spike was exactly the right person for that, but just like everyone of Angel's team, he could see the importance of the mission and chose it willingly.
                              Absolutely, that's exactly what I'm saying. They brought out the worst in each other and we even see a snippet in Season 7 when Faith mentions Angel. Spike doing good for it's own sake rather than 'for the girl' is a huge leap. Spike had the mission and wasn't just mission's would be boyfriend.

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                              • #16
                                spike

                                I didnt think of it as spike coming back ruined him saving the world in s7 of buffy i think him coming in was good coz he added fun to the show and he did save people when he felt was right i agree him trying to steal angel propachey was unfair but he did show his selfish side at least and i agree they do bring out the worst in each other which is cool and his attitude with harmony was cool 2


                                btw y did joss fire chrisma ?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                                  I LOVED having Spike in AtS!! And especially after the debaucle Season 4 had been - IMO. Jasmine was a nightmare!

                                  I didn't like they used him mostly for comic relief - and they did seem to begin to tear down what Spike had done in Season 7 BtVS. BUT - I thought getting Spike and Angel together as a misguided team was just wonderful!! And it continued my Spike love for one more year!!!!
                                  I almost stopped watching Angel entirely after that nightmare of S4! They totally ruined Cordy's character as we knew her......and after she had come so far. (But, I do have to admit that I love Orpheus!)

                                  Originally posted by kana View Post
                                  Absolutely, that's exactly what I'm saying. They brought out the worst in each other and we even see a snippet in Season 7 when Faith mentions Angel. Spike doing good for it's own sake rather than 'for the girl' is a huge leap. Spike had the mission and wasn't just mission's would be boyfriend.
                                  AND, he didn't run after Buffy even when he had the chance to do so. He's always had a rivalry with Angel, even back to when Spike was vamped......and Angel is as much to blame as Spike, IMHO. They are a classic example of "can't live together, can't live apart", they are so much stronger and better together as partners than either is alone!

                                  And I wasn't even a particularly big Spike lover on Buffy! I think S5 was better with Spike than it would have been without - Cordy was gone, Fred was killed and Wes died in the end.....it was comforting to have Spike around for a sarcastic laugh once in awhile.
                                  sigpic

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by major_buffy_fan View Post
                                    Ibtw y did joss fire chrisma ?
                                    No idea....I think rumor was it was something to do with their working relationship, but not sure...his official reason was that he couldn't think of anywhere where her storyline could go next, but of course that's pure BS (in YW alone we see tons of potential) coming from as creative a person as Joss--and given how people on Buffy stuck around even when they had no more storyline....

                                    Originally posted by Cinderela View Post
                                    I almost stopped watching Angel entirely after that nightmare of S4! They totally ruined Cordy's character as we knew her......and after she had come so far. (But, I do have to admit that I love Orpheus!)
                                    But it wasn't Cordy....so how could it ruin her character? Of course if she had been in all of season 5 and not just YW I think people would not say this as much, since it would have been even more apparent that her character was still the same, when she was in control of her own body and person...
                                    Promise that you'll return to me.

                                    icon by sireesanswar

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by sherrilina View Post
                                      But it wasn't Cordy....so how could it ruin her character? Of course if she had been in all of season 5 and not just YW I think people would not say this as much, since it would have been even more apparent that her character was still the same, when she was in control of her own body and person...
                                      Unfortunately, the story arc was that we viewers DIDN'T know it wasn't Cordy....and this is a good point, if we had SEEN her in S5, I, for one, would probably not feel the way I do.
                                      sigpic

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Cinderela View Post
                                        Unfortunately, the story arc was that we viewers DIDN'T know it wasn't Cordy....and this is a good point, if we had SEEN her in S5, I, for one, would probably not feel the way I do.
                                        Did you catch her in s5 in 'You're Welcome' because it was the best tribute episode to a character ever, though horribly bitter sweet because we didn't get to keep her.

                                        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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