Liam and his father

[NileQT87]

lately, i've gotten into a bit of a discussion over at imdb about parents in the jossverse. one of the ones that seems (to me) to perhaps be the least understood is liam and his father.

here were my thoughts:

liam's father is shown to be caring and meaning well, but liam and he have a horrible relationship that liam rebels at (mirroring angel's relationship with connor). his mother is shown to be silent and liam's only care for his family is his sister, kathy. there seem to be a lot of other relatives and friends at his funeral.

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"i was never in your way, boy." liam saw his father that way (overbearing authoritarian/sinner), just the way that connor saw angel. in fact, "liam" and connor have a little talk about fathers that touches on the fact that liam and connor had a lot in common, making angel and his father actually in the same place trying to do his best, but the son was out of control. you see liam's father at his funeral being probably the most broken up about his son's death.

the irony is that liam eventually had a son that saw him the same way he saw his father, yet angel really was a good father who cared about his son. if anything, it should have cleared up angel's feelings toward his own father.

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joyce was just as bad early on as liam's father appeared to be. remember, while we see joyce as a great mother, she threw her daughter out of the house when she was 17, put her in an asylum at 15 and said things like buffy hadn't been kicked out of school "not yet". yet, she's overall a good mother.

liam's father acts like a lot of parents with troubled children. in fact, the way liam saw his father was not much different from the way connor saw angel (yet, we consider angel more or less a good parent--certainly loving). he saw a son who was drinking, whoring, brawling in taverns (and getting kicked out of them) and messing with the servants. liam, who was talking about stealing his father's silver when he walked out of the tavern after getting kicked out with his friend. liam wasn't a model son. he felt like a disappointment to his parents and lived down to their lowest expectations.

the roots of this were that liam had a lot of dreams that were quashed early in life ("i always wanted to see the world, but...") and judging by the similar hobbies of angelus and angel (who actually is liam): traveling, languages, reading, art, history, etc... are all interests they shared, and likely came from liam.

in halloween (besides being a timeline nightmare which i'm comfortable blaming on the watcher's council along with what they wrote about spike as far as giles knew in school hard), we learn that liam was not happy with what he saw of noblewomen or respectable women, perhaps. he found them to be unexciting morons that were common in the era. ironically enough, he went to whores and even darla was a whore. so he began hating the proper by-the-rules girls, got a distaste for the bad girls from all the years of angelus with darla... so he met the girl who both loved humanity (something he never had faith in starting when he was liam) and didn't play by the rulebook.

you can easily start piecing together who liam was from the little clues we are given (and it is far deeper than bad father/tavern drunk son). what darla says at the end of the prodigal gives us another big clue... liam's father can never disapprove of him... but he can never approve of him either. liam wanted his father's approval deep down.

what we are shown at liam's funeral is a father who probably blames himself for his son's death. that is not an uncaring father. it's just a flawed one who meant well.

liam's father telling liam that if he goes, to never come back is similar to joyce's very same reaction with buffy... or angel's very same reaction with connor (being kicked out of the hyperion). these are flawed parents, but they are all considered to mean well, and deep down they really loved their children, even if their children didn't immediately see it. the difference is is that angel never got to make it better with his father, whereas understandings and feelings were healed between buffy/joyce and connor/angel. which brings us back to darla saying his father can never disapprove or approve of him ever again.

also remember that liam and his father were compared to kate lockley and her father (trevor lockley). a father/daughter relationship that was strained by a parent who meant well, but didn't really know how to relate to his daughter. like kate, liam deep down wanted his father's approval and loved him very much.

remember, angelus' strongest human weakness had been his family--especially his father. his other weaknesses were what he saw as the hypocritical nature of his father and religion (which he took out on convents/nuns/drusilla). liam's problems were very instrumental to what angelus and angel became.

[KingofCretins]

I personally saw Angel's dad as a stern man, but probably a fair one. Summarily dismissing him as a bad dad ignores the fact that Liam was, well, a jackass. He was a drunken layabout who probably could have had a family of his own and meaningful work long before Darla sauntered into that alley in his line of vision.

Angelus directed his anger at things he thought were hypocritical (his father and, presumably, his faith) but were actually just things that expected Liam to be accountable for his own life.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I personally saw Angel's dad as a stern man, but probably a fair one. Summarily dismissing him as a bad dad ignores the fact that Liam was, well, a jackass. He was a drunken layabout who probably could have had a family of his own and meaningful work long before Darla sauntered into that alley in his line of vision.

He was certainly old enough to be married and sprogged by then, for the times, and be helping to manage his dad's estate (if he had one that is?I'm assuming he was a landowner).

Angelus directed his anger at things he thought were hypocritical (his father and, presumably, his faith) but were actually just things that expected Liam to be accountable for his own life.

There was fault on both sides, it seemed to me. His father said some cruel things to him, but Liam was certainly a pain in the bum and a bit of a disgrace. I wonder how many servants he'd got up the duff? That'd be interesting?Angel meeting one of his own (bastard's) descendents!

[NileQT87]

liam's father was an upper-middle class linen merchant (we find out in "blind date").

unfortunately, we only really got to see the results of liam's childhood/young adulthood rather than those things themselves. we ended up only seeing the ruined young man (who, yes, should have been married and 'sprogged' by 26--which can be explained by angel's feelings on women of the day in "halloween"). some of liam's father's disappointment in his son likely stems from his lack of interest in the proper wives available to him early on (likely, liam started looking for these 'exciting' women in the wrong places).

with young liam, we get a few bare glimpses of someone who was remarkably intelligent (ahead of his time, even), had a photographic memory which he continued to have, wanted to see the world (which seemed to be one of liam's most idealistic goals in life) and not be stuck in galway being the next in a line of linen merchants. he projected himself as a drunken lout, but i think that was a result due more to his dissatisfaction with humanity and what to him was a forced place in life. it's classic self-destruction where sometimes a person feels they can't live up to something and/or they aren't getting what they want out of life, so they do everything they can to end it or numb themselves from their feelings on it.

i always noted that when he starts introducing himself to darla, there's an idealistic youth that is there behind the jaded drunk image. he goes from talking about stealing his father's silver to a very naive seeming young man as soon as he turns and sees darla--his demeanor completely changes. he is, in fact, not as drunk as he appeared to be, either. he's looking for that woman who's going to take him out of galway, who is going to offer up the excitement that he doesn't find in the nobility/good girls of the day. he doesn't want a moron who just sits there and looks pretty (ironically enough--and likely on purpose, his own mother doesn't have a single line of dialog). liam is smart. we know that because angelus and angel are smart, and the few lines we get about what liam really wanted to do with his life before he pissed it all away show this.

we see someone who has lost faith in humanity and stops caring about himself. that is what i feel happened to make liam who he became. more of the after effects of his quashed dreams than what caused it.

[kana]

I definitely think that Liam was a shy somewhat 'Owenistic' youth who wanted his Daddy to say those three little words which is why he never fails to say it to Connor. I definitely agree about the "Never in your way". I doubt Liam started off as the person we see in 1753 but his he could never understand why his father was so hard on him or what he was trying to do (Prodigal) and while his father had done his share of sinning, it didn't mean that he didn't want the best for his son. Liam and his father couldn't relate because like most sons he can't see past himself. I bet he'd be different his father wasn't so cold authoritarian. Liam wasn't all bad. He clearly doted on his sister which explains why Angel has protective instincts with people he cares about.

Angel's fatherhood with Connor happened as a result of him not wanting to turn into his own dad. He constantly tells Connor he loves him, however, while his own father was controlling, Angel is a little too hands off with Connor needing him to come back on his own (possibly to get his feeling of validation, at least in part).

Yeah I agree with Liam's vascilation between idealism and cynicism. Also we see a need for purity. Angel wanted to Shanshu and Angelus wanted the clarity of evil. His fragmented persona goes to core of Liam. Hating his father and wanting him to love him. Dispising religion but wanting forgiveness. This is why Angelus and Angel seem so seperate. It's the need for validation forgiveness, it's hope and despair all rolled into one person. I saw the fight in Orpheus as he battle of Liam's psyche, the potential to become someone rolled out into two distinct possibilities. He could never find salvation in his father ('love me daddy') nor Darla (purity of evil is my deliverance or maybe I've embraced the negation of good rather than evil, oh well no more moralising angst) and Buffy turned him into a monster again (d'oh). Even the Powers cannot give the ultimate validation (Hence his 'killing God act)

And now no Shanshu. His resolution of this issue I guess is in self salvation.

[sueworld]

And now no Shanshu.

I'm one of these people who believe that he did achieve his 'Shanshu' but in the form of his son, Connor. In a weird way I think that's the best resolution for his situation.