"The Dark Knight" SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

I figured I would start this up because people that have seen one of the best movies of all time may need to talk about it before they crawl up the walls

I can not believe how flawlessly written and directed this one. Bale and Ledger were perfect, but I don't want praise for their performance to lose sight of the fact that Nolan "gets" Batman more than any filmmaker ever has or ever could.

I was totally surprised that Harvey was Two-Face in this movie, but it was fantastically done. Heath Ledger was awesome... but it can't be overstated how great Aaron Eckhart and Gary Oldman were in this movie.

Setting up Batman as a wanted man is an amazing surprise but does actually fit a long section of the Batman mythology. And how all the set-up was done for it thematically without being obvious until it was happening... wow. I got goosebumps when Gordon explained to his son "... because we have to chase him".

The use of the Prisoner's Dilemma in this movie just... wow. And I loved that the film was (because the Batman story is) willing to make the optimistic declaration. Men do not need to fail, they can choose the good.

Was anyone else amazed that the movie just... kept starting over? You get HUGE build-up to a big set piece, and then... there's just more. The kidnapping attempt... then the jail... then the ferries... then the hospital. It's like they put the entire LOTR trilogy into one movie

[?DarkWillow?]

OHMYGOSH. It was amazing. It was everything I thought it would be and more. I just came back from seeing it, and all I could say after it was "Heath was incredible!". I think that his last role as the Joker was definitely one of his best.

I don't normally cry at superhero movies (except "Spider-Man 3"), but when Gary Oldman's character said "It will be alright, son" to his little boy, I broke down xD.

I agree. I wasn't expecting for Harvey to become Two-Face either, or for Rachel to die. But I think that they were both good choices and that they did very good things for the plot.

My favorite parts were all the Joker/Batman scenes, especially the one in the interragation room. That was very well-written.

I noticed that too, the movie was very split apart. There wasn't just one Big Bad character, leading up to a huge fight at the end. There were many different fight scenes and different villains throughout. The film was very long as well (2 & 1/2 hours).

[Thomas]

BEST SUPERHERO MOVIE EVER!

I love how they not only dwell into Batman's story, but also Bruce's. A lot of superhero movies treat the hero and their secret identity as one person, but they do a great job at separating the two. A great example would be Commissioner Gorden's reaction to Bruce Wayne. He barely knew Bruce, but he and Batman have this close relationship.

Also, I love all of the different dynamics. They've really done a great job at that. In the original Batman movies, they didn't dwell into relationships. So, it's good to see that the supporting cast is as important as the main character. They all pretty much got tons of focus, considering all the stuff that was going on!

I loved Rachel's death scene. I really thought she was a very interesting character over these two films. I was sad to see her go, but I think it was needed.

Heath Ledger really did a fantastic job, the Joker was psychotic, but funny, in a dark twisted way. He did these horrible things, but I still kind of liked him. The disappearing pencil trick was brutal! I can't help but think how true the Joker was when he said, "You see who a person really is during their last moments alive." He really did a phenomenal job. He played the role so well, and it really goes with the quote, because he showed everyone that he's an amazing actor, but unfortunately it was his last role. We got to see who he really was as an actor. It's kind of funny though, I remember reading how people didn't think he could pull it off when he was first cast. A lot of people thought they picked the wrong guy for the part, but it turned out better than anyone could've of imagined.

I was a bit shocked to find out about Two Face being a villain. I knew he was coming, but I figured it'd be at the very end of it, setting up for the next movie, but nope. They introduced him and killed him just as fast, which doesn't bother me as much, since they can introduce a new villain in the next movie. I loved how they handled having multiple villains. Usually, it's distracting in movies, they ether focus on one more than the other, but by introducing Harvey Dent as a major character, they really got to explore the character really well.

As for the next film, it's never too early to speculate, I think they'll be introducing Selina Kyle aka Catwoman, I think Lucius' quote about the new suit being able to deal with dogs- or cats, was total foreshadowing. Plus, with Rachel dead, they'll probably want to introduce a new female character. Catwoman would be perfect since she's pretty much an anti-hero. So, she can pose just a tiny threat, without overshadowing any other villains. Though, I wouldn't want it to become "Batman and Catwoman," with them constantly teaming up...

Vicki Vale is probably the better option for a new female lead. A non-corrupt reporter? She'd fit perfectly. She'd no doubt become a target, since she'd be sticking her nose into places they probably don't belong.

As for a villain, I'm thinking the Penguin and/or the Riddler...

[EndersWrath]

BEST SUPERHERO MOVIE EVER!

I'll go as far to say one of the best movies ever. Flawless. Definitely in my top 3.

AHH! I'm still writing up my review because I'm a huge nerd like that, but I love to speculate...

As for the next film, it's never too early to speculate, I think they'll be introducing Selina Kyle aka Catwoman, I think Lucius' quote about the new suit being able to deal with dogs- or cats, was total foreshadowing. Plus, with Rachel dead, they'll probably want to introduce a new female character. Catwoman would be perfect since she's pretty much an anti-hero. So, she can pose just a tiny threat, without overshadowing any other villains. Though, I wouldn't want it to become "Batman and Catwoman," with them constantly teaming up...

Vicki Vale is probably the better option for a new female lead. A non-corrupt reporter? She'd fit perfectly. She'd no doubt become a target, since she'd be sticking her nose into places they probably don't belong.

As for a villain, I'm thinking the Penguin and/or the Riddler...

I've been speculating on how they could use Harley in the next movie... because I love her ...and I'm not gonna lie, one of the BIGGEST reasons I got upset at Heath Ledgers death was that we were more than likely never gonna see Harley on the big screen. But onto my theory. They could have it to where we see Harley doing the Jokers work from him while he is in Arkham Asylum. That is where he "corrupted" her and it would all work out pretty well, its just that as a friend pointed out, it wouldn't be "viewer friendly", because people wouldn't get it.

Onto more possible theories...

I don't think that they will go with Catwoman, just because of the flop that was associated with Halle Barry. I'm hoping for Clayface because I would LOVE to see what they would do with him. Though if they went with The Riddler, I hope that they steer clear with what they did with that god awful movie Batman Forever. They made the Riddler insane in that movie, which he really wasn't. The Riddler is a craftsman, intricate and just smart. I would LOVE to see Edward Norton play him in all honesty because I believe that Norton would be able to pull it off. Plus Edward Nigma... Edward Norton *giggle*.

I dunno if I would wanna see The Penguin, I mean he just doesn't seem like he would do too great in a follow up to TDK.

Killer Croc would be pretty awesome though. Also an appropriate version of Mr. Freeze would be great as well. OR The Mad Hatter. That would be great, maybe even team him up with The Riddler, have like a battle of the minds.

[KingofCretins]

With the dark and serious tone of these movies (which has always been the right tone), I'm hoping that they eventually revisit Bane and do him justice. "Batman & Robin" made a joke of the character, and it pissed me off. Bane was the only Batman villain to fundamentally *beat* him, and claim the city as his own, so I would love to see that character try to do it on the big screen.

[Heather]

Ok, I'm just going to say: BEST. MOVIE. EVER. Without a doubt my favorite superhero movie and most like my favorite movie I've ever seen. I'm seeing it for a second time today.

Now, onto third movie speculation:

Chris Nolan (director and writer of "Begins" and "Dark Knight") has said in an interview (I can't find the link but I know for a fact that I read it) that he wants the Riddler in the third movie. When he said that, every "Lost" fan across the globe start screaming "MICHAEL EMERSON = THE RIDDLER!" I agree with that idea 100%. He's smart, he's creepy BEYOND belief, and he looks the part.

Nolan also said that he wants Catwoman in the next film. He suggested Kate Beckinsale could play her. If they get Beckinsale in the next film, I will be bouncing off the walls. I'm not even joking. As Thomas said, with Rachel dead, they need a new female lead - not to mention love interest. Selina Kyle would bring a new dynamic to the films by being a love interest for both Bruce and Batman.

Now, I, personally, would KILL to see the Huntress in the third movie. I know that, according to the comics, she's introduced way down the line but I don't care. It just works. They've already established the mobs in Gotham City so they could easily say that the Bertinelli Family Massacre happened awhile back and that they were the most historic Gotham Mob-Family to date. Helena Bertinelli then enters the scene as a masked vigilante with a striking resemblance to Batman. The criminals at first think that she's Batman himself - that he's returned - and then they start calling her the Batgirl. As time progresses, the press gives her the title of "The Huntress" - and criminals are her prey.

Batman eventually returns to Gotham to find this new vigilante in town. He made it clear in TDK that he doesn't like copy-cats so he'd instantly be hostile to Helena from the get-go. They'd have a sort of rivalry going on but, eventually, she'd screw up and he'd have to clean up her mess. He doesn't approve of her willingness to kill - something that was also established in TDK. He rips her head off because of it and, eventually, that creates the fissure between the two characters that is seen in the comics. The Huntress idolizes Batman but Batman hates her methods.

Helena Bertinelli, herself, could play into the movie as someone involved with the government's desire to take down the criminal organizations in Gotham. Since her family was quite possibly the most important and major crime family in Gotham history, she'd likely know some things about how the mob works or who's involved or how to outsmart the mob.

So, at the end of the day, the movie will have established a sidekick-of-sorts in their mythology AND the "Batgirl" mantle will also have been incorporated. Plus, they'd advance the murder-of-criminals-is-BAD plot and it'd also fill in the void left by Batman fleeing the city at the end of TDK.

...I've put WAYY too much thought into this...



Oh, as far as the Penguin is concerned, someone posted a link to a website that suggested that he be incorporated into the films as a short, rich, brilliant playboy of sorts who has ties with the criminal underworld of Gotham. Batman can go to him for information - something he's done in the comics before. If he is a rich man, he could also be involved with Bruce Wayne. Though, he wouldn't be called "The Penguin." He'd go by his real name and he'd be mocked behind his back as "The Penguin." Which could make him mad when he hears that and then he goes and kills whoever says it. Thus making him a villain as well. The issue becomes, however, who would play him?

[KingofCretins]

Hey, question, especially for you Heather, since you seem very Batman-literate.

That machine -- wasn't that sort of setup for Barbara Gordon (who, granted, doesn't exist as an adult in these movies) as Oracle?

[sueworld]

Oh lord, I can't wait to see this one! I can't believe that those in the UK have to wait another week till it starts screening.

I've always adored the Jokers character, and my favorite ever graphic novel was 'the Killing Joke' so this movie is a must for me, especially as the franchise ended on such an appalling way with the last few films.

Saying that a friend of mine is going to the crew screening (a bit late don't you think?! *g*) and I look forward to what he/they think of it afterwards.

[Bittersweettwit]

I haven't really read much of batman or watched many of his movies, but I really want to see this one.

I do have a question though.... what Batman movies are a MUST see before even thinking about watching this one?

[KingofCretins]

"Batman Begins" is highly recommended to see first, but not strictly necessary.

All the other "Batman" movies are completely unrelated, and for the most part, can be skipped.

[Bittersweettwit]

Thank you KOC!

I'll definately make sure to watch Batman begins in that case and probably the others also! I just wanted to check what should definately be watched before going to see it with friends.

Again thank you!

[Heather]

Vampmaster, like KingofCretins said, only "Batman Begins" is important. Every movie before "BB" is irrelevant to "The Dark Knight." You should really see "BB" before you see "TDK" to be introduced to the characters and plotlines and whatnot, in my opinion. It'll really help you follow the second movie a lot easier.

Hey, question, especially for you Heather, since you seem very Batman-literate.

That machine -- wasn't that sort of setup for Barbara Gordon (who, granted, doesn't exist as an adult in these movies) as Oracle?

I guess it could be. I'm not the most Batman-literate person out there - and I'm probably not the most Batman-literate person on this forum - but from what I understand, Barbara/Oracle acts via communication links (ear-pieces, mics, etc...) and sometimes cameras (small ones in other people's suits/uniforms). I, personally, haven't stumbled across a situation where Barbara has used sonar equipment in the same way as "TDK" did but it'd certainly be interesting if it was foreshadowing Oracle and the Watchtower.

NOTE ABOUT MY HUNTRESS THEORY: I just saw the movie for a second time today and, upon the second viewing, I was more enthralled by the emotional stuff. The first time was fantastic because of the stuff on the surface but the second time allowed me to really feel the pain of Harvey Dent and Gordon and I almost cried when Rachel died.

But I've also been corrected by the second viewing. Batman doesn't leave the city, he's just on the run from the police. At first, I thought that he said he was going to leave Gotham and then Gordon said that they have to hunt him down - basically to bring him back. But now I understand it as Batman will always protect the city but the police will hunt him for the crimes of Harvey "Two Face" Dent (who I STRONGLY believe isn't dead).

So, Huntress could step in simply as a more...respectable vigilante. The people of Gotham will have turned against Batman completely so if a new hero comes into the picture, they'd likely turn and embrace them like they did Batman at first.

[helloagain]

I loved this movie. It's so much better than any of the other super hero movies out there. It wasn't cheesy like the Spiderman movies eventually got but it did have just enough humor in it. Part of me wonders if I think Heath did such a great job just because it was his last role but I really think I would feel the same if he were still alive. I'm going to see it again for the second time tonight. The only thing that I think would have made it better was to see Katie Holmes be blown up and not Maggie.

[Koos]

Well, I saw the Dutch premier last night and I'm still in awe with it. I thought Batman Begins was awesomely good, and that it would be hard to beat. But this movie was screaming from the screen. It was spectacular, intense and it had the perfect tone. I never really liked the batman movies from before. I barely have read any of the comics, so I'm not into the batman franchise. That's means that most of it was knew to me. Except for the joker, but this time the joker was nuts. He really made the movie as an plotdriving factor and getting the best out of Batman.

I'm gonna watch this movie over and over again.

[Flak]

Great movie! Definitely a solid film. But of course, being as versed in film grammar as I lead myself to believe, some fat can of course be trimmed. The sequence leading to the 'Batmobile' getting junked is one part that stands out to me in need of some serious trimming. It was just too slo-mo and kinda felt like the movie was hobbling for a minute during that sequence. This is not to say of course that Mr. Nolan did a bad job of bringing Batman to the big screen, but some parts could have been trimmed if only slightly to reign it down to a more comfortable two hour running length.

I didn't really like the vigilante sequence at the beginning. I don't know if they meant to show the Scarecrow as washed up, but I will always remember him as being one of the best of the rogues gallery (how could he not be? He preys on fear!) so to see him getting a stern talking-to from the Bat was a bit of a letdown.

I did like that they blew up Rachel. I found her to be a little too idealistic to not be running around with a cape all day, and just found her character obnoxious. Maggie didn't really do much for me playing Rachel either, and the note was just melodrama of the yuck variety. But no wonder she's Bruce's foil, she's even more narrowly focused than he is. Yes, my idealists MUST wear a cape or something to indicate they are trying to be a superhero, otherwise I find them obnoxious. Even with a cape though (I'm glaring at you Superman) I don't like them all.

I did really enjoy the Joker though. Heath Ledger surprised me. Given his resume I wasn't sure he could pull it off, but he did awesome. I loved the magic trick. Truly a villain for the ages.

[Kold]

Best movie of all time? Are you joking, imdb.com?
I thought it was highly enjoyable, great action, amazing Ledger (honestly better than anything else he's ever done), but... the superhero genre is quite limited. And while being the best superhero movie ever is great (as I'd say it probably is), it's not the best movie of all time.

I just wish it didn't SMACK YOU IN THE FACE with theme. Michael Caine bloodied my lip up, Heath Ledger proceeded to give me a black eye and then Gary Oldman knocked half my teeth out with thematic face-smacking. For God's sake whatever happened to subtlety?

And it was too long. That's a bit unfair because it was all pretty exciting, but it was not as tightly-wound as it should have been.

But I liked the cast. I already mentioned Heath, and I liked Oldman, Gyllenhaal, Eckhart, Caine, Bale with what he had. Not so much Morgan Freeman because I've grown tired of him in films and he wasn't doing much in the film.

Pretty sexist though haha. I laughed quite a lot at the fact that halfway through the writers

Spoiler:

killed the only lead female

and to make up for the void had to put Heath Ledger in a skirt.

A good movie, 3.5 or 4 stars out of 5, but I just don't see what the hype is about. I just don't think the superhero genre has ever been that good.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Really enjoyed it. So much better than Batman Begins. The only real drawback for me was the Batman voice. Because he was having full on conversations in it, its silliness was really distracting. But loved his relationship with Gordon, and his contrasts with Dent (even if not of the subtle, but that's the point I think...because they were both purposefully creating themselves as symbols, and the general public doesn't like its symbols all subtle after all). Knowing the comics (though, been so long since I've read any), I knew where Dent was headed, but that didn't detract from it at all. Rather, there was a sense of tragic inevitability.

For the next film, I would love a Superman crossover. Not very likely perhaps, but I think I enjoy both Superman and Batman the most when they appear together. The contrasts between them are fascinating.

[holypotatoes]

and to make up for the void had to put Heath Ledger in a skirt.

Nurse!Joker was the best part. I was laughing pretty damn hard as he was walking on the street outside the hospital. The socks he had on made it even funnier.

Really enjoyed it. So much better than Batman Begins. The only real drawback for me was the Batman voice.

Ugh, the voice. Not good. I kept getting annoyed with it as well. The same with the Joker doing the licking of the lips thing. *cringe* Sooooooo disgusting! I can't stand hearing that.

But yeah, I think this movie was overly hyped. Yes it was great for a comic book movie (since there hasn't been very many good ones) but best movie ever, no. It was enjoyable but I got irritated with all the fo-endings. I mean jesus, the thing had like 5 separate endings. It felt like they took all the alternative ones and then just mashed them all together. IDK, it was a good movie but not this phenominal piece of work that everyone's making it out to be.

[EndersWrath]

So because this is a superhero movie, that means that it can't be one of the best movies of all time? That's cool I guess. I mean way to not be bias with it?

I love that really the only thing critics or anyone for that matter complain about in the movie is the length. Though at the same time, if they were to have shortened it, they would complain that it was too rushed and short. People just don't feel good about reviewing a movie unless they can find something to complain about. It's not like it lagged and made people bored, it kept up with the action and entertainment.

The voice thing does kinda crack me up, but he has to disguise his voice and well, that's what we get, so I appreciate that they made itat least realistic to that point. I mean he can't just take off some glasses, add a curl, and put on some spandex... Gotham isn't as stupid as some other cities...

Faux endings? Not really. I mean there were lead intos to other storylines and plots, but I wouldn't call them faux endings.

I honestly wouldn't expect people to all think it was the best film ever, one of the best films yes, but when poeple already have a prejudice or just stretch at things to justify not liking it, it gets kinda annoying. I would be fine with a simple 'it didn't do it for me' to be perfectly honest, at least then it would be truthful.

/rant

[holypotatoes]

*clears throat* Since this one seems to be strictly directed to the post I just made.

So because this is a superhero movie, that means that it can't be one of the best movies of all time? That's cool I guess. I mean way to not be bias with it?

No that's not it at all. It doesn't matter if it's a superhero movie or not but god know's there have been way better movies made so I don't think people can just say, "it's the best movie of all time" when clearly it's not. There's no bias in it at all. It's probably one of the best superhero movies of all time but it surely isn't the best movie of all time.

I love that really the only thing critics or anyone for that matter complain about in the movie is the length. Though at the same time, if they were to have shortened it, they would complain that it was too rushed and short. People just don't feel good about reviewing a movie unless they can find something to complain about. It's not like it lagged and made people bored, it kept up with the action and entertainment.

No I'm pretty sure we could find other complaints. As for laggin, the beginning hour or so I got a little bored with.

Faux endings? Not really. I mean there were lead intos to other storylines and plots, but I wouldn't call them faux endings.

They could have easily ended it at anyone of those points and the movie would have been the same but they kept adding things that didn't need to be added.

I honestly wouldn't expect people to all think it was the best film ever, one of the best films yes, but when poeple already have a prejudice or just stretch at things to justify not liking it, it gets kinda annoying. I would be fine with a simple 'it didn't do it for me' to be perfectly honest, at least then it would be truthful.

/rant

Who's stretching?! Just because two people in this thread decided they didn't love it like everyone else and give reason's why they think so doesn't mean we're stretching to find something wrong with the "greatest movie of all time." Besides, none of us said this movie was terrible. That would be one of those times where you would say, it didn't do it for me but all of us here have agreed that it's a good movie. We all have a right to our own opinions so stop getting so frustrated with other's not having the same opinion about this being the greatest movie of all time.