Bella/Edward vs Buffy/Angel

[Obsessed]

Hey folks. I figured this was a specific topic that it would be okay to post this here.

I just started reading Twilight thanks to the glowing recommendation on Lynn's behalf and on the plus side; I couldn't ignore the Twilight obsession exploding here in the forum. So? I got the first book. I'll be frank I hate to read series because I find it a hassle to read continuing storylines that never same to end but this is definitely an exception. I am officially hooked. I am actually aching to do art but as some of you know I can't cuz my stooped iMac crashed down on me but I digress.

I was hoping to discuss about Bella and Edward's relationship between Buffy and Angel's with you Twilight addicts. Keep in mind I am only half way through the book so I don't want to be spoiled.

So here are my initial thoughts: when I heard about the premise of the book, teenage girl in love with ancient vampire, I thought didn't we do that already? I assumed it wouldn't work here in Twilight. Boy I was wrong. I couldn't believe how different and original Bella and Edward could be. Even though Bella and Buffy are/were insanely in love with their vampire boyfriends, the passion and intensity is far more different.

Bella and Edward's relationship feels more concentrated at least to me. Am I alone in this? It seems Buffy and Angel's relationship was like a bursting flame that would scorch your skin. While Bella and Edward's relationship feels like a volcanic rush that turns your heart into ashes while the ashes are still smoldering afterwards. In addition, Bella and Edward's romance feels ancient and old-fashioned, as if they've been lovers since he turned. Yet it doesn't feel that way to me re: Buffy and Angel's relationship. Why is that?

My heart would always tears up whenever I watch I Will Remember You. I loved but hated watching this episode because it pained me to see Angel carry the burden of the memory of ?what could have been' in regards to their relationship. Now that I've read Twilight, the emotions that Edward goes through trying to keep Bella at bay while struggling with the temptation and the feelings he has for her doesn't even compare. I hope that made sense.

Also, the vampire lore in this book is more passionately animistic, as if it relates to the emotions inside the cold ones. Whereas on BtVS or Angel, it seems more barbaric, vampires on the prowl looking to just kill anything. I know Edward and his clan only hunt animals but he still longs for Bella in that manner and while Angel has longed for humans and Buffy, it's still a stark contrast.

So, what do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree? Why do you think it feels different? Are there similarities between the two couples? I look forward to reading your thoughts. Toodles.

[sherrilina]

So, what do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree? Why do you think it feels different? Are there similarities between the two couples? I look forward to reading your thoughts. Toodles.

I would definitely say there are similarities, though these clear parallels become more apparent in subsequent books, so I can't really say much yet, except in spoiler tags you shouldn't read!

I feel that

Spoiler:

the parallel between B/A and B/E is unavoidable in NM, when Edward leaves Bella "for her own good," unilaterally making the decision without letting her have a say in it, just as Angel leaves Buffy in the end of season 3--though in the case of E/B, Edward comes back of course! Or rather Bella goes to Italy to get him....(hmmm, going to Italy to save their former love interest, where have I heard that before as well? Another parallel I only just thought of! ). And of course there's the CANNOT HAVE TEH SEX thing, at least for the time being....(lol, what Buffy and Angel do on her seventeenth bday would probably have scandalized Edward/Meyer!).

There is the issue of power though--unlike Buffy, who due to her slayerness has super-strength and is completely Angel's match, if not even better at fighting than him, and who can hold her own, Bella is a normal human, or actually an abnormally clumsy one at that, and can't really "hold her own" against Edward/other vampires, and thus there's much more of a "power" imbalance, or a Protector/Damsel in Distress dynamic than with B/A, at the present time. And since slayers hunt vampires (though they sometimes hunt slayers too), there's not as much of a lion/lamb thing going there with the vampire as the lion.....

But they are similar as far as being these two (sometimes cheesily written) star-crossed lovers with parallels to R&J who fall in love at pretty much first sight, in spite of their huge differences (human(ish) and vampire) and the fact that in a normal world they should be enemies or predator/prey. And I think both have their good and bad moments. The main difference is that B/A has more of a "we can never be together! Angst! Angst! Angst!" air than B/E does, lol....

Good topic, I've been thinking about this myself!

[Amber]

So, I have some thoughts on this.

I've never been a Bangel shipper. Respected their love, and all but never really fell into the relationship like so many people did. And I have to say, Bella and Edward seems so much more natural to me. It strikes me with an intensity that gives me butterflies at the same time as Bella when he says certain things. This never really happened to me with Buffy and Angel. I always thought they were a bit too weepy, and while I always had the issue with Angel that he was being selfish and not caring about his age and such, I get the feeling that Edward has this in mind all a long. He knows this can't be a permanent thing, and makes sure she knows that as well. He also says upfront how selfish he is being. He never courts her and then later has this extremely important conversation, as Angel finally did in The Prom.

Yes, Buffy is the Slayer, so she's had to grow up very fast, but Bella seems much more mature on an emotional, romantic level. Yes, it's her first love as well, but maybe it's because we get the scope of her inner thoughts, but she seems to be taking it a bit more cautiously than Buffy did at first.

I wouldn't say Bella and Edward had a love at first sight thing either. Months passed before they told eachother they loved eachother. They had quite a bit of time to get to know eachother, and the fact that he can't read her thoughts and asked her all of those questions, and she was allowed to ask in return and he shared all of that information with her, that is one of the processes normally included in your average, human falling in love scenario. It seemed to me that Buffy never really knew that much about Angel, or bothered to ask. They didn't seem to "get" eachother, the way Bella & Edward do. For example, Angel giving Buffy that book after they had known eachother all that time, goes to show that he really doesn't know much about her interests. To me, Cordelia's affections for Angel seemed more realistic on a human level in that she knew his ups, downs, past, silly quirks, sense of humor. Buffy didn't seem to get much of that from him. I find Edward and Bella to be a refreshing combination of the two.

And the fact that he has to constantly resist biting her. This may sound wrong, but I find that totally hot. Angel just doesn't pose the sort of threat I would like to see in this type of relationship, yeah sure, he has the whole, I can lose my soul thing. But that can obviously be avoided if you know how. Edward is more animalistic to me. He's dangerous, and again he makes sure that she knows. I like my vampires to be predators, not some whiny guy who cries too much, and can't bone you.

[sherrilina]

Hmmmm.....well at least we can whole-heartedly agree with each other about Angel/Cordy!

Here are my two main points of disagreement though....

Yes, Buffy is the Slayer, so she's had to grow up very fast, but Bella seems much more mature on an emotional, romantic level. Yes, it's her first love as well, but maybe it's because we get the scope of her inner thoughts, but she seems to be taking it a bit more cautiously than Buffy did at first.

Are you sure that's maturity that's making her more cautious and not just a serious lack of self-esteem? It seems to me that that's what's holding her back most--time and time again she emphasizes how unbelievable it is to her that someone as "perfectly perfect in every way" as Edward would ever fall for or have any interest in her.....so I wouldn't say she's emotionally/romantically immature, I think it's quite the opposite in fact--Bella can be very annoying at times.....though she is a teenager, so I suppose it's understandable that she wouldn't be totally emotionally mature. I feel that she is more mature in many respects than average because of having had to take care of her mom and stuff, but when she's with Edward it often seems to me like some of that goes away.....though I guess it's because she's being too swept away by Edward to think clearly!

I wouldn't say Bella and Edward had a love at first sight thing either. Months passed before they told eachother they loved eachother. They had quite a bit of time to get to know eachother, and the fact that he can't read her thoughts and asked her all of those questions, and she was allowed to ask in return and he shared all of that information with her, that is one of the processes normally included in your average, human falling in love scenario.

Really? I mean, I know it wasn't quite love at first sight, but Bella is sure confessing that she is irrevocably in love with him pretty soon into the book, even if she doesn't tell him that yet, and I think he feels similarly.....I think it's still pretty fast, even if not as fast as Buffy/Angel.... But then Buffy and Angel weren't exactly declaring their irrevocable love for each other immediately either, that comes more in season 2....

[Amber]

I do get your point about Bella being a little bewildered about his perfect perfectness being interested in her, and I wish she would take her own safety into consideration a bit more often. And I think that towards the beginning when she makes the statement about being in love with him, it seems like it's still a crush at the time to me, a SERIOUS crush, but I don't think she discovers the real love aspect of it until later. She definitely gets the self sacrifice portion it seems by the end of Twilight, but her insistence on being made one of them is a bit annoying and I was glad when Carslisle finally made her understand a bit more why Edward was against it.

I still stand by the fact that they get each other so much better, and it seems their personalities are a little more entwined. They seem to joke around and goof off a lot more than Bangel whose relationship seemed to be comprised of a lot of "buffy....", "ANGEL!" moments. So dull. (another reason I love Cangel. *high fives for Cangel!)

About the love thing, Buffy did that too though. Teenage girls throw "love" around a lot. Remember in the Episode Angel she admitted to the Scoobies that she was in love with him. Well, she didn't deny it when asked, or when Xander reiterated. So they both are acting their age atleast. I just think Edward even though it's his first love as well as Bella's seems to take the whole thing much more seriously, and poses and answers the neccessary questions. I mean, they've already touched on the danger aspect, as well as her being turned, aging, her having a normal life. I mean they got to it. They didn't wait 3 seasons to be like, oh, by the way, you want your future to be with me? well I don't. It was SO late in the game to have the conversation. One Angel knew they should have had the entire time, and should have been the mature one since he really is the adult in the scenario.

Plus Angel seems like such a cradle robber to me, and Edward seems more like a teenager. Both of them are old men. But still.

[MayhemII]

Before I even started reading the Twilight series, I immediately saw parallels between the Bella/Edward relationship and Buffy/Angel, which all have been stated in this and I'm sure other threads.

My Opinion:

I always loved Bangel, ever since the first time I watched BtVS all the way through.

While I've read the first two Twilight books, I still can safely say Bangel prevails as the winner. Perhaps I set my standards too high for the pair, seeing how any fansite I went to claimed this series was much better than "that stupid Buffy show". All I know is while I really do enjoy the books, I constantly have to roll my eyes at parts (as I'm sure many of the Buffy fans did during the first three seasons). I just feel like I've seen it all somewhere before, but with David Boreanaz...
What really seems to irritate me is Bella. She over uses the damsel in distress scenario. I mean how many times can a girl faint, cry, and feel sorry for herself in one chapter?
I guess I always liked shows where the heroine has some pride (Buffy, Veronica Mars, etc)
I have no genuine complaints about Edward, except he seems more naive than Angel was, which has been previously stated.

No worries though, I have great compassion and fuzzy feelings for the Bella/Edward pairing.

[NileQT87]

speaking of buffy/angel vs. bella/edward and their parallels... i thought this was pretty darn good.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dn2cuMEBugo

i haven't read the books, though. but from what i've read on wikipedia about all the plots... there are quite a few parallels.

i'll probably end up checking out the movie.

david boreanaz knocks robert pattinson's socks off, though. it's nice to see masculine MEN actors today still getting emotional leading man roles, rather than all the androgynous boyish actors getting more and more of these roles. joss always did a really good job at getting a mixture of physical types... including genuinely masculine-looking men (as well as plenty of people of all sizes). it's actually quite surprising how many shows really don't have any true leading-man types (and classically hot ones). the jossverse has had a lot of them in comparison to a great deal of shows/movies recently.

i know they are going for a teen-looking actor for the role of edward... as that's the character. and it probably makes it a lot less awkward that bella is falling in love with somebody who looks somewhat in her age-bracket (whereas david definitely looked like he was nearing 30 to start with--he was 27 in 1996--most of joss' leading men types were in the late 20s/30s/40s range). but using older males as romantic interests is something i personally prefer. part of the appeal of vampires is that the really handsome ones are always at their peak, but also have a lot of wisdom, knowledge, experiences, etc... the fact that they are old, wise, mature men with younger bodies. and i'd imagine it'd be easier to be 26 forever rather than 17. 17-year-olds just aren't respected that much by a lot of adults. it's actually even sadder to be 17 forever than it would to be 26 or 30 for a male. getting vamped at the high school age is just one step above being a child vampire forever (and anne rice's handling of claudia, imo, was the peak of her writing abilities).

also--bella's age will start getting to be a problem much quicker than buffy's will for either angel or spike.

Spoiler:

if angel stays human

, buffy has started to come into his age bracket. it gave buffy a little bit of time for more hope. bella will start having age problems quicker.

one thing on wikipedia caught my eye:

Edward reveals that he believes vampires are soulless creatures who will not experience an afterlife.

now, i've read that stephenie meyer has never seen btvs/ats, but the soul thing seems a primarily joss element as far as vampire mythologies go.

and in fact, if there is one thing that draws me to the jossverse as having one of the best vampire mythologies, it was differentiating itself from the genre with the famous gypsy curse arc and matters of the soul going to the ether, heaven or hell. it added a lot of depth to the jossverse to not just have good vampires for the sake of being good (usually with a lot of mockery of previous mythologies), but actually a good phlebotinous reason why some vampires can be good and others that just aren't.

what is meyer's take on souls?

[Amber]

What really seems to irritate me is Bella. She over uses the damsel in distress scenario. I mean how many times can a girl faint, cry, and feel sorry for herself in one chapter?
I guess I always liked shows where the heroine has some pride (Buffy, Veronica Mars, etc)
I have no genuine complaints about Edward, except he seems more naive than Angel was, which has been previously stated.

How do you figure? The thing no one seems to take into consideration when they say they don't like Bella is that she's a 17 year old GIRL. It's her first love, it's blind, it's whiny, it's how you are at 17 when you suddenly find yourself in love with someone who becomes the center of your world. I don't really see how she's such a damsel in distress considering she faced James alone to save her mother. She also had Charlie's and the Cullens best interests in mind at all times. The only time I questioned her judgement was when she asked Edward to stay with her during the fight against the new vampires. But even then, would you want the person YOU were in love with to face a bunch of people that were very capable of killing them? Of course not. She's doing the best she can with what limited life and emotional experience you have at 17. Her case is even harder because she has two guys who are in love with her and want her to pick them, and a part of her relates to both. That's never easy.

I think Angel is far more naive than Edward, atleast in the relationship department. Edward made an actual effort to avoid her, to warn her, to let her know it was not a good idea. He even told her he could not STAY with her early on. He couldn't stay away because literally, she was calling to him, and attracting him. What's Angel's excuse? He has the complete capability of steering clear of Buffy, or atleast trying to avoid persuing a relationship. As I've previously stated, he never even made an attempt to have the important conversation of "oh hey, I'm not aging. you on the other hand are gonna be an old lady," with Buffy until he was dumping her out of nowhere. It was extremely selfish of him, and he should have been the adult and made her aware of the risks and the limited amount of time they could spend together SHOULD she choose to be with him.

david boreanaz knocks robert pattinson's socks off, though. it's nice to see masculine MEN actors today still getting emotional leading man roles, rather than all the androgynous boyish actors getting more and more of these roles.

yeah but as you pointed out, that's his character. Edward is described as being beautiful, and lanky. meh, still stand by my opinion that I can't STAND Boreanaz on Buffy. the acting was just... *shakes head.* I KNOW THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN TORVALDD IS NOT... LINE!

now, i've read that stephenie meyer has never seen btvs/ats, but the soul thing seems a primarily joss element as far as vampire mythologies go.

and in fact, if there is one thing that draws me to the jossverse as having one of the best vampire mythologies, it was differentiating itself from the genre with the famous gypsy curse arc and matters of the soul going to the ether, heaven or hell. it added a lot of depth to the jossverse to not just have good vampires for the sake of being good (usually with a lot of mockery of previous mythologies), but actually a good phlebotinous reason why some vampires can be good and others that just aren't.

what is meyer's take on souls?

I found that interesting too. Stephenie hasn't said what her own personal take on it is, but Carslisle doesn't believe they lose their souls, Edward does, though he isn't too firm in it, considering that he thinks that he and Bella are dead when they meet up in Italy and he says "Carslisle was right." so he could be swayed. they haven't touched on how the others feel, but Carslisle never mentioned any of the others feeling they lose their souls.

[NileQT87]

What's Angel's excuse? He has the complete capability of steering clear of Buffy, or at least trying to avoid pursuing a relationship. As I've previously stated, he never even made an attempt to have the important conversation of "oh hey, I'm not aging. you on the other hand are gonna be an old lady," with Buffy until he was dumping her out of nowhere. It was extremely selfish of him, and he should have been the adult and made her aware of the risks and the limited amount of time they could spend together SHOULD she choose to be with him.

Angel: I'm older than you, and this can't ever... I better go.
Buffy: H-how much older?

Willow: Wow! And it is kinda novel how he'll stay young and handsome forever, although you'll still get wrinkly and die, and... Oh, and what about the children? I'll be quiet now.
Buffy: No, it's okay. I need to hear this. I need to get over him so I can...

Angel: If I can go a little while without getting shot or stabbed I'll be alright. Look, this can't...
Buffy: ...ever be anything. I know. For one thing, you're, like, two hundred and twenty-four years older than I am.
Angel: I just gotta... I gotta walk away from this.
Buffy: I know. Me, too. One of us has to go here.
Angel: I know.

Giles: Is that why you're here? To see her?
Angel: I can't. It's, uh... It's too hard for me to be around her.

Angel: I know this is hard.
Buffy: What do you know about this? You're never gonna die!

Buffy: The Cliff's Notes version? I want a normal life. Like I had before.
Angel: Before me.
Buffy: No, Angel, it's not you. You're the one freaky thing in my freaky world that still makes sense to me. I just get messed sometimes. I wish we could be regular kids.
Angel: Yeah. I'll never be a kid.
Buffy: Okay, then a regular kid and her cradle robbing, creature-of-the-night boyfriend.

Angel: I wouldn't know. I don't... Well, you know, I, I can't.
Buffy: That's okay, um... I-I figured there were all sorts of things vampires couldn't do. You know, like work for the Telephone Company, or volunteer for the Red Cross, or... have little vampires.
Angel: So you don't think about the future?
Buffy: No.
Angel: Never?
Buffy: No.
Angel: You really don't care what happens a year from now? Five years from now?

Angel: I love you. I try not to, but I can't stop.
Buffy: Me, me, too. I can't either.
Angel: Buffy, maybe we shouldn't...

buffy was frequently the one pushing angel along in the relationship. and i didn't even get to all the season 3 quotes--the mayor's speech in choices combined with angel's break-up speech in the prom--much of which was a repeat of stuff from bad eggs. point is, angel put forth the fact that he had killed people, killed people that had similarities with buffy (drusilla), is too old for her, can't have children, mentioned the future, spent most of season 1 and early season 2 avoiding buffy (and going behind her back with giles), etc...

also remember that angel had to be emotionally rebuilt for a good portion of his btvs time. he was also given a destiny to help the slayer by whistler. it was unlife as an nyc bum or somebody to be counted--somebody with a destiny. but the fact that they fell in love wasn't foretold threw a wrench in the works. and he didn't know about the curse either. but it was him that was trying to back up or avoid buffy most of the way. but angel was very emotionally weak at the time--buffy was much stronger. it wasn't until he came back from hell that he started to think about his own destiny separate from whistler's leading him to get a jump start from buffy. he always knew he had to leave because of the relationship--and he says so right from the beginning--but the curse gives an even bigger reason to go, on top of the aging issues.

also remember that slayers tend to die by the age of 25. the aging issue might not even be an issue. buffy went in knowing that she'd probably be dead by the time she reached angel's physical age. she never had time.

that's where buffy is different from bella. buffy isn't an average human girl. she's already going to suffer a fate not unlike liam, minus the going on and on and on outside of joining the pile in the slayer dreams getting passed around. bella is going to run into age problems very soon. buffy still hasn't reached age 26 in the comics (though she's closing in on it). it is probably a good thing joss decided to make the two immortal love interests for buffy be quite physically older than her... it gives a lot more time if joss ever decides to have a happy ending (unlikely).

as far as worst actor and singer in the jossverse... it's charisma carpenter handling drama (the torvald quote notwithstanding--same context as william's poetry and angel's singing being intentionally bad--being that david's outtakes are better--and cordy also was a MUCH worse singer than angel was). and i love early btvs angel. he was the best thing btvs had, imo. the worst period of david's acting would be dork-angel during the cangel arc. lol. "you do?" but charisma still beats him. "i'm in LOVE... with ANGEL!" they changed angel into a big dumb male to fit with cordelia and cordelia into a saint to fit with angel--luckily, darla and connor came in the picture and boosted up the emotional content, started up wesley's judas arc and took cordelia out of focus (along with mexico).

at least angel's state of brooding, tortured, wise loner in btvs fit the fact that he had spent the last 100 years by himself... and they never acted like siblings. the highlight of btvs--starting in season 1, peaking in season 2 and being a major highlight in season 3 WAS the bangel saga. and if you go by ratings and how the show was advertised... seasons 2-3 were the peak of btvs' ratings and season 1 never got into its groove until angel became the most interesting character who would be the main story catalyst for those seasons and he eventually outgrew btvs and got his own show. obviously it's not just me who thought btvs angel was both what nurtured the show into something bigger and then outgrew it (and just look at the story material in ats versus that in btvs--early btvs is as much as, if not more, angel's story as/than buffy's, imo).

angel was what saved btvs from being creature of the week and teenager stuff. and he was the first gray area element. without angel... let's put it this way... the only available love interest would have been xander. and then you'd really be stuck in high school. the show never would have been epic.

and one thing you can give to angel was that he did leave. giles even (begrudgingly, i'm sure) said that angel had the sense to leave. something spike didn't (spike lives in the now--in the moment--as does buffy. angel lives in the past and future.). angel is the last character you can accuse of not thinking about the future. buffy and spike are all heart. angel, wesley and giles are the characters that are much more head-oriented.