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Why can't the Judge burn Angelus?

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  • Why can't the Judge burn Angelus?

    The Judge can kill the vampire Dalton who's love of reading gives him humanity, and he senses humanity in both Spike and Drusilla. But when Angel loses his soul and reverts back to Angelus the Judge says that Angelus is pure evil and can't be burned.

    This makes no real sense. We know that Angelus has a love for the arts. In the Angel episode Waiting in the Wings Angel talks about how he cried when he saw Giselle back in 1890.
    Originally posted by Waiting in the Wings
    Angel: "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I saw their production of Giselle in eighteen-ninety. I cried like a baby. And I was evil!"
    If Giselle made Angelus cry like a baby then by the Judge's standards that should mean that Angelus has humanity in him.

    So why can't the Judge kill Angelus?
    Last edited by Lostsoul666; 03-08-21, 09:50 PM.
    My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

  • #2
    I've found sense in it by seeing it as Angel's rejection of human emotions when he's unsouled. He doesn't see how his wish to defeat his father, to beat him and kill him to not feel his judgement at the end of The Prodigal stems from the same love that sought his approval in life. He wants to close off emotions. He wants to scrub himself until he bleeds after IOHEFY because the felt emotions are still tangible. So I think it is this rejection and wish to not feel and be affected by emotions that leads The Judge to say there isn't humanity in him. There's nothing to burn he isn't already trying to turn from himself.

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    • #3
      Of course if you want to headcanon it you could say that there's more going on with Dalton that they let on. Maybe he reads books from PETA and has been having a change of heart about the vampire lifestyle. Or he writes fanfic based on the works of Marcel Proust. Maybe reading was Dalton's gateway to a pseudo-humanity that attending the ballet wasn't for Angelus.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by PuckRobin View Post
        Of course if you want to headcanon it you could say that there's more going on with Dalton that they let on. Maybe he reads books from PETA and has been having a change of heart about the vampire lifestyle. Or he writes fanfic based on the works of Marcel Proust. Maybe reading was Dalton's gateway to a pseudo-humanity that attending the ballet wasn't for Angelus.
        Fanfic based on Marcel Proust!

        Slash crossover fic between Charles Swann and Stephen Dedalus from Joyce’s Portrait of an Artist. I can see Dalton getting a huge artistic-gasm over that one.

        Nothing more human than that!

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        • #5
          I kinda hold to the idea that 100 years of being trapped within by the soul has changed the demon, and that's why this iteration of Angelus is less human in some key ways. Then again, a psychopath can admire artistry, and according to Angel true artistry was the destruction of a human being. Reading makes you think, and identify with another POV. The arts Angelus liked were more expressive.
          Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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          • #6
            It's an interesting question, actually. What constitutes 'humanity' for the Judge? Obviously, it's not a state of being since Dalton was burned and Dru and Spike have traces of humanity. Would a human psychopath like Warren qualify?

            I think that it has everything to do with the ubiquitous soul that so much of the Buffyverse revolves around - it's obviously meant to signify that Angel's soul is really gone. What that means for Angel, though, obviously goes way beyond even being a soulless vampire.

            Some of the answer may lie in the scene where Angelus is trying desperately to wash off the contamination of human emotions like love in I Only Have Eyes for You. Is it possible for a vampire to literally close their mind to any human impulse at all? To close the synapses of human memory so firmly that they suffer from a kind of extreme antisocial personality disorder? That seems far-fetched - a vampire would need to retain human memories in order to find victims, raise havoc, commit evil - otherwise, they'd be little more than a feral animal. But perhaps the intense emotions that souled Angel felt for Buffy were so extreme that Angelus must literally wall himself off from his human physiological self in order to function.

            The Angelus who craved time with Darla and cried at operas wasn't quite as wretched as the Angelus who remembered his souled past - perhaps it literally made Angelus insane and psychopathic in a way he'd never been before. Hence the total divorce from his human side.
            Last edited by American Aurora; 30-07-21, 11:02 PM.

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            • #7
              I'm starting to wonder if Angel(us) does have a split personality to some extent.

              People have already bought up the episode I Only Have Eyes For You where Angelus is trying to wash away the things that he felt when he was possessed by Grace. Angelus clearly can't handle human emotions. So maybe when he got cursed with a soul he created the Angel personality to hide behind.
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              • flow
                flow commented
                Editing a comment
                A bit like William who created the Spike personality to hide behind when he was turned? Interesting idea ...

            • #8
              flow Spike did definitely build his personalty in part to hide who William was, the weaknesses he feared he retained, but he was now a vampire so not just William, he'd died.

              Lostsoul666 I do think there is a duality in the vampires because of their human sides and demons, but not actual separations. When the soul comes into the mix it brings additional capacities that connect them more to their human side by bringing more breadth and depth to their moral/emotional capabilities and those elements can control and dominate the demonic drives. But there is that sense of returning rather than something new being created that never existed I think. Angel doesn't become Liam again, he can't as he also died. He's still a vampire and has been through centuries of experiences. But Angel souled being affected by emotions doesn't make sense as a way for 'Angelus' to cope as it is embracing his emotions. This falls more I think to considering the demonic side of him as a separate being that was smothered by the soul, but that would still be Angel dominating rather than Angelus creating a emotion positive personal. But generally I do think it's better to think of the souled vamps as complete beings. Just with a more complex internal mix at play. The more clear separation we see in Orpheus is I just think an internal processing of Angel's varying internal influences.

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              • #9
                I'm not actually serious about Angel and Angelus being separlet personalitys since I feel that would undermine Angel's redemption story if they are different personalitys. I was just throwing the idea out there within the context of I Only Have Eyes For You.
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                • Stoney
                  Stoney commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The IOHEFY scene clearly illustrates Angelus' rejection of emotions. How much is him feeling it but wanting to be free and how much is him simply remembering embracing them, it's hard to tell for sure.

              • #10

                Stoney
                flow Spike did definitely build his personalty in part to hide who William was, the weaknesses he feared he retained, but he was now a vampire so not just William, he'd died.
                Human William died, that's true. But the vampire who rose from the grave was also called William. He introduces himself as William to Angel. Drusilla calls him William. Angel calls him Willy or William.

                Spike was a name he assumed later.

                flow

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                • Stoney
                  Stoney commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Ah okay, you're talking about newly sired William. Sure.
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