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If Spike had been killed off would you have kept watching ?

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  • If Spike had been killed off would you have kept watching ?

    OK so Spike was a popular character and back when show was airing it was common for people to say they only watched for Spike. He was brought over to Angel for that very reason.

    So here's a hypothetical question to test that . If Spike had left or been killed in S5 or S6 would you have still kept watching the show or not have bothered ?

    Speaking for myself, I would've kept watching but been less enthused about it. I liked Buffy herself but she seemed to be in a holding pattern for much of it and SMG seemed to be getting more and more bored with the role.
    Willow was ruined after the whole magic is drugs debacle and the writers just ignoring her responsibility in her mind rape of Tara. Dark Willow should definitely have started sooner and been longer.
    Xander they seemed to run out if stuff for him post S3 .
    I had no interest Dawn who to me was just the shows Scrappy Doo.
    Anya was a fun but shallow character until Selfless and really just Selfless.
    ASH left because he was bored of just being the English stereotype exposition guy.

    I mean 95% post show discussions normally involve Spike or his relationship with Buffy or the AR or all 3. So what's other people's thoughts ?
    21
    Keep watching
    76.19%
    16
    No Spike no me
    23.81%
    5
    Last edited by BtVS fan; 12-06-21, 09:25 AM.

  • #2
    I would have definitely watched as I love all these characters, but I think I would have missed Spike terribly. He is a great character and added so much to the show.

    I love Giles, but didn't particularly miss him in the later seasons. I love Cordy but still love Angel Season 5. So I think, eventually, I'd get over Spike's death and continue loving the show.

    Comment


    • #3
      I did notice one thing about your posts BtVS fan why are you always negative towards Buffy.

      For me, I would have definitely watched Buffy without Spike because I'm a huge Buffy Anne Summer fan.

      Comment


      • BtVS fan
        BtVS fan commented
        Editing a comment
        Negative in what way, do you mean the character or the show ?

      • Brendan
        Brendan commented
        Editing a comment
        BtVS fan I think the show. I never see you actually say anything positive about it.

    • #4
      Brendan I like the show though on rewatch more the first 5 seasons (though I can still see flaws) rather than the last 2 which I consider bad writing. I also find myself gravitating more to Ats rather than BtVS nowadays.
      my favourite season story and character development wise was S2 but I was disappointed after that in S3 when Joss basically did a big giant reset for the show.
      Last edited by BtVS fan; 12-06-21, 09:57 AM.

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      • #5
        I would have kept watching, but my enthusiasm would for it would have been cut in half sadly. Spike was the series for me.

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        • #6
          BtVS fan I respect your opinion about preferring Angel over Buffy. Of course, you can have an opinion.

          ​​​​​​​Yes, I did have a feeling that you were an Angel fan. Because in all of my years of loving Buffy, I do notice that Angel fans dislike the later seasons and love the early seasons of Buffy. Oh yes, the Angel fans also dislike the renowned episodes like The Body and OMWF. And their LOVE Angel dark, but hate Buffy dark. That's just my observation.

          Comment


          • Brendan
            Brendan commented
            Editing a comment
            American Aurora I don’t consider myself being weird for liking dark stuff.

          • Stoney
            Stoney commented
            Editing a comment
            I love every character at their lightest, darkest and the rainbow between.

          • American Aurora
            American Aurora commented
            Editing a comment
            Ah, I only meant I was weird as in deviating from the typical Puritanical American obsessed with artistic appearances of moral righteousness in which ‘dark’ art means morally bad rather than an honest exploration of our own humanity.

        • #7
          All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

          What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


          AtS = Angel.

          A&F = Angel & Faith

          AtF = After the Fall





          Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
          OK so Spike was a popular character and back when show was airing it was common for people to say they only watched for Spike. He was brought over to Angel for that very reason.

          So here's a hypothetical question to test that . If Spike had left or been killed in S5 or S6
          Let's be clear: In BtVS S4 and after, people were watching for Buffy/Spike and Willow/Tara. Tara's being killed in "Seeing Red" (B 6.19) resulted in a boycott of BtVS S7 and the loss of around 1MM US viewers for BtVS S7.

          Without Spike, there would be no reason to watch BtVS S7. The idea that Spike would be killed off is simply beyond silly. He's been the most popular character in the Buffyverse pretty much since "School Hard" (B 2.03) aired. Juliet Landau's not being available for BtVS S3 is what led Joss Whedon to create Faith to try to replace the popularity of Spike.

          If James Marsters left BtVS after BtVS S5, that would create CHAOS. 20th Century Fox Entertainment was looking to considerably boost the money that the network paid for BtVS. Buffy/Spike was the hook for BtVS S6. Money would have been thrown at James to get him to stay. Unless he got a movie role or could be in a TV show that paid him enough, he wasn't leaving BtVS. He loved working on BtVS and he was great friends with Sarah Michelle Gellar at the time.

          All this to say that it's kinda pointless to consider an alternate reality that has Spike being killed off. James never became a movie star; so, it's not as if he would leave for move roles.

          But ratings fell enough for BtVS S7 because of the boycott over Willow/Tara's being no more and because Buffy/Spike weren't kissing and weren't having sex scenes.


          I mean 95% post show discussions normally involve Spike or his relationship with Buffy or the AR or all 3.
          Discussion and debate happen with things worth discussing and things that can be debated.

          Joss purposefully made Buffy/Spike ambiguous and complicated. We know everything about the other relationships outside of how much Buffy doesn't know about Angel's human past.

          Comment


          • BtVS fan
            BtVS fan commented
            Editing a comment
            Whether you think its silly or not it was a just a hypothetical question 🙂

          • Stoney
            Stoney commented
            Editing a comment
            Hypothetical questions are interesting and there could have been reasons JM needed to leave, it's hardly a crazy thing to ponder.

          • BtVS fan
            BtVS fan commented
            Editing a comment
            Worth pointing out that although they got on working together. SMG and JM were not that big friends outside filming. He wasn't invited to her wedding like ASH was and she hasn't kept in contact with him post Buffy like she has with say DB and even AH

        • #8
          I would definitely have kept watching (though I would have missed Spike terribly.) Buffy Anne Summers is my favourite character and I'd watch even if the show missed the Scoobies lol. So yeah, I'd have watched

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          • #9
            I would've kept watching but it would've been a huge loss for Buffy, both the show and the character as I think Spike's function in the story greatly serves her arc and characterization.
            But as with every what if, there's just no way of having a solid idea of what would've actually happened; maybe it would've been just as good and interesting, though my love for the character makes me disagree vehemently, as I always feel that they really struck gold with him and he was a great contribution to the show.
            What a challenge, honesty
            What a struggle to learn to speak
            Who would've thought that pretending was easier

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            • #10
              Same here: I would have kept watching, because it's a good show with or without Spike. But I have to be honest and say I would have rewatched the Spikeless season(s) a lot less than the ones with him in it.
              https://www.youtube.com/c/DoubleDutchess

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              • #11
                I really enjoy Spike's character but it was actually his complete arc across the series that solidified him as my absolute top fave. I loved the later seasons and just thought his path through the series was incredibly good and the best element of the whole show. If it had ended earlier I'm sure he would still have been one of my favourites overall, but it wouldn't have been to the same level. So, of course I don't think it would have been as good if Spike's story had ended sooner, but definitely I'd have kept watching.

                I've really come to love Xander's journey through the series on rewatches and genuinely find more to enjoy in each episode of all the seasons every time I watch them (true of AtS as well), so I can't imagine not still loving the series and enjoying whatever else they did with it.

                Comment


                • #12
                  If Spike had left or been killed in S5 or S6 would you have still kept watching the show or not have bothered ?
                  I am one of the few who voted "No Spike no me" but the reason for my vote is mostly that it was Spike who drew me into the show.

                  As I have mentioned many times before Buffy never was a well-known or hugely popular show in Germany. It flew under the radar as just another teenage-high-school soap opera with vampires. I watched Buffy after I had read about Spike and his unrequited love for Buffy. That's what made me want to watch the show and consequently, I started watching from season 5 on. I did not see the point in watching the earlier seasons. Of course, I have since then watched them many times, and although I still have a soft spot for Spike and think he is a multi-layered character as well as incredibly hot I have come to love Buffy as the true heroine of the show and I feel very protective about her.

                  So, retrospectively I would have kept watching the show if Spike had been killed but the odds are I would have missed the whole show.

                  flow
                  Last edited by flow; 12-06-21, 08:27 PM.

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                  • BtVS fan
                    BtVS fan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Have you seen Angel Season 5 with Spike?

                  • flow
                    flow commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yes, I have and I have also watched most of Angel season 1, but both seasons only once.

                • #13
                  Originally posted by Brendan View Post
                  BtVS fan I respect your opinion about preferring Angel over Buffy. Of course, you can have an opinion.

                  ​​​​​​​Yes, I did have a feeling that you were an Angel fan. Because in all of my years of loving Buffy, I do notice that Angel fans dislike the later seasons and love the early seasons of Buffy. Oh yes, the Angel fans also dislike the renowned episodes like The Body and OMWF. And their LOVE Angel dark, but hate Buffy dark. That's just my observation.
                  But there are those of us who love the dark and complicated in and of itself. I love both Angel and Buffy dark, and both episodes you mention. In fact, I do move between which show I love more, and which arc I find more satisfying - Spike or Wesley.

                  I liked Spike from the start, but it was his completed arc that really drew me in to watching the show more than once, and with that more than once came greater appreciation for all the characters. Had Spike been killed off at any point I still would have finished the series, but I wouldn't have turned around an immediately rewatched it, and watched it again many more times. I wouldn't have sought out fandom, fanfic, and all the trimmings. Spike was the character that brought me into the world and kept me there. Without him I think it would have been a great show, but not all that memorable for me.
                  Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    I would have watched the show, I'm sure they would have come up with an interesting storyline but I highly doubt it would have been enough to make me feel passionate enough about the show so that I would buy comics and join forums to discuss it for years. Its hard to explain but as much as I love Buffy and Spike separately it is them together that mesmerizes me.

                    "I like who I am when I'm with him. I like who we are together."

                    Comment


                    • Priceless
                      Priceless commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yeah, the comics and the forums, that's all about Spuffy for me too. I would have liked the show without Spike, but I doubt I'd have kept the love going 20 years+

                  • #15
                    I watched it before he was on there, after left and would have continued had Riley's stake been real. Spike's value to the show was never all that much. Fandom sure loves to fight about him, but they're not really expansive in scope. It's just kinda that same arguments over and over and over.

                    Comment


                    • #16
                      Originally posted by BtVS fan
                      Saw this post on the Buffy Boards on the same thread so I thought I'd post it here as it feels relevant. Interesting point was Buffy ever her normally happy self with Spike 🤔


                      Spike didn't take up any more of Buffy's story than Riley or Angel. Buffy's story in S6 and S7 revolves around her esteem problems and her ambivalence about her calling. Spike being around had nothing to do with Buffy's problems and they'd be there if he never returned to SD.

                      Those comments sounds to me like the usual argument that the show is only good if the Core Four are besties. For all the complaints about Bangel or Spuffy, I find the no-ro shippers far more obnoxious. That and simple hatred of Spike. Those same people would have no issues if you stuck Faith in there, since they insist Buffy is gay.

                      Comment


                      • Priceless
                        Priceless commented
                        Editing a comment
                        It is a post from a Fuffy fan I think.

                    • #17
                      I would probably keep watching, but the show would become less interesting to me. Spike is such a fascinating character and his arc, aside from Buffy's, is the most compelling to me.

                      Comment


                      • #18
                        Originally posted by BtVS fan
                        Saw this post on the Buffy Boards on the same thread so I thought I'd post it here as it feels relevant. Interesting point was Buffy ever her normally happy self with Spike 🤔


                        Oh dear a quote from yet another old school Spike/spuffy idiot. Christ that 'argument' does get tiresome.

                        "Worth pointing out that although they got on working together. SMG and JM were not that big friends outside filming. He wasn't invited to her wedding like ASH was and she hasn't kept in contact with him post Buffy like she has with say DB and even AH"

                        And that is relevant how? The actors aren't the writers/characters are they?
                        Last edited by Silver1; 13-06-21, 09:25 AM.

                        Comment


                        • BtVS fan
                          BtVS fan commented
                          Editing a comment
                          It's not but it was to that specific poster

                        • BtVS fan
                          BtVS fan commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Why didn't you question Mike on its relevance given he brought it up and I merely responded ?

                      • #19
                        I don't really want to discuss an argument someone made on another board, in another context with different people and without the same someone being here to defend their argument for themselves but in short, I agree with iwhale that this is a well-known complaint about how everything in season 6 and season 7 was about Spike and I simply don't agree with that argument.

                        I've never heard anyone say season 3 was all about Angel. How Buffy broke up with him and how he broke up with Buffy and how he thought about whether Buffy wanted children or not ... was all of this just another Angel storyline? No, of course not because it happened in the glorious days of season 3 which was of course the best season of them all, and those who claim they aren't into the show for the romance funnily never seem to mind her romance with Angel (or Riley for that matter) that much.

                        There was a huge rift between the Scoobies as early as season 2 and then another one in season 3 and then once more and up to an almost breaking point in season 5. That's okay. However, a rift between the Scoobies in season 7 is bad writing. Yeah. Sure.

                        The claim that Spike took up more screentime in season 7 than the Scoobies or more screentime than he did in previous seasons is not based on actual facts. Neither does Spike have more screentime than Willow or Xander nor does he have more lines. And he definitely has significantly less screentime than Buffy and fewer lines than her. There is another funny thing about these facts. Exactly the same people who whine about Spike taking up too much screentime in season 7 go on whining, "It's not about the screentime, it's about his arc" when you put the facts about the screentime right.

                        Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

                        flow

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                        • #20
                          Originally posted by BtVS fan
                          Saw this post on the Buffy Boards on the same thread so I thought I'd post it here as it feels relevant. Interesting point was Buffy ever her normally happy self with Spike 🤔
                          I agree with flow that posting someone else's post here from another board when they aren't involved in the discussion here isn't great. You could just raise the main gist of what they said as ideas you read elsewhere to consider, when/if you think there is something of particular interest you've read you want to mention.

                          As for the suggestion that Spike being around more requires Buffy to be unhappy, that's just taking two elements and deciding they are connected. The point of Buffy being depressed because she has been torn from heaven doesn't require Spike. The point of Buffy struggling with the pressures of leadership and distancing herself because of feeling isolated by her power doesn't require Spike. We saw Buffy growing up and taking on more burdens and losing the support of her parental figures. The show is about growing up and taking on pressure and responsibility. Her relationship with her friends shifted somewhat too as more serious relationships started (a particular shift that came initially when she was dating Riley and Xander and Anya moved in together). These aren't anything to do with Spike being in there. That she turned to him as she became distanced from others is perhaps what is being connected. But I don't think they wouldn't have explored those issues without Spike's inclusion as it's all really about Buffy growing up and facing the demons of life.

                          Was Buffy her normal happy self? I'm not sure what you mean by that and turn back to the weight of the issues she was dealing with as the show progressed and she lost her relationship with Riley, (coming after Angel obvs) and then her mum died etc. We get less lighthearted, just hanging out with the gang scenes generally as the pressures in their lives increase. But in the sense of whether Buffy and Spike ever seem relaxed and happy in each other's presence? I'd say they do. But it is within the context of the story/season and in S6 that is greatly about escaping her life still, but in S7 when they are training the potentials together or out fighting there is often a sense of ease.

                          I would say Spike's return clearly does add an extra item to Buffy's plate to deal with in S7, and coming out of S6 there is a sense of burden initially for sure. But it feels like the reduced levity comes from the seasons, not the relationship. You can argue in both seasons, negatively (withdrawing from others some) and positively (feeling understood and getting some time out), she actually gets some relief when she's around him. But then I think the relationship runs alongside Buffy coming more to terms with her own duality and feeling more comfortable with herself, woman and slayer. The combination of both elements plays into the relationship with Spike, so in that way his presence specifically serves Buffy's story.

                          I'm sure though, if Spike hadn't been included, going back to the OP, that they would have just explored the same issues. Possibly greatly in the same way with another character or something different. I doubt the sense of deepening responsibilities and pressures would have been alleviated if Spike had been killed off. It was the representation of growing up and the struggles in that experience that the show did so well and that would have kept me watching.

                          Comment


                          • BtVS fan
                            BtVS fan commented
                            Editing a comment
                            It was just to add to the debate but I can delete the post if you wish ?

                          • Stoney
                            Stoney commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I appreciate the intent & it did add points to consider. Their ideas were shared on the internet so I don't think it's problematic raising them, but summarising points you've seen rather than quoting when they aren't members here is probably best.
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