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Should Xander and Cordelia have had sex?

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  • Should Xander and Cordelia have had sex?

    I'm on the AtS s3 re-watch and there's discussion of the Angel/Cordy sex scene in "Waiting in the Wings" (A 3.13). I don't find any of the Angel/Cordy scenes hot nor the Angel/Darla sex scenes.

    Anyway, it got me thinking of the sex scenes that were less hot and I remembered that mostly Xander most never had a sex scene. With Faith, it's mostly shown with a big sheet over Faith and then that big sheet over Faith through the reflection of a TV screen. Then we have those few seconds in "Touched" (B 7.20) with Xander/Anya. All the other sex scenes with Anya that I remember only show them post-sex. We simply hear about all this amazing sex they've having. Obviously, we didn't see most of the Buffy/Spike sex and most of that stuff we only know of because of what Buffy and Spike say of it. But we at least see something.

    Faith reasoned that not only was Xander experienced, but that Buffy likely had sex with him. Anya considers Xander fantastic in bed.

    Cordelia was clearly very hot for Xander, the subject of sex is brought up in "Surprise" (B 2.13). Cordy says they do things in her car that would make her seem to her father not to be a 'good girl'. In "Bad Eggs" (B 2.12) Cordy is describing car sex as if she's had it. Cordelia graduated high school a virgin. Cordy was in love with Xander and clearly very sexually attracted to him. But all we know of is that she made out with him.

    From interviews, Charisma Carpenter says Nicholas Brendan was the best kisser of those she's kissed in the Buffyverse. And Xander's story would make a little more sense if he was actually having sex with Cordy. For example, we're supposed to just believe that the virgin Xander impressed the very experienced Faith. Plus, we'd get to see a Nic Brendan/Charisma Carpenter sex scene, which would undoubetly be better than later sex scenes we were subjected to (Buffy/Riley, Angel/Darla, Angel/Cordy).

    Plus, Cordy's sex life in AtS is simply tragic. She either was sleeping around for acting jobs or she lost her virginity to a guy who simply wanted to knock her up with a demon spawn. Then she was dating around and we never even saw whom she was dating. Then there was Groo. And the whole Angel thing is because of Jasmine.

  • #2
    I also don't believe that Xander and Cordy have sex. I can't say that she graduated virgin. Sorry, Mike, how you may be sure. She has some boyfriends in highschool. One of them was get killed in "Prophecy Girl". I don't believe that in S2 - Angel she was virgin, when she slept with this demon boy, who gets her pregnant. Actually, they never told us about Cordelia intimate life . It never was the subject in the series.
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    • #3
      I always took it that Xander and Cordy never had sex. In "The Zeppo", right before Xander has sex with Faith, she asks if he's up for it and he says "I've just never been 'up' with people before." So I assumed that meant that he was losing his virginity that night. Maybe Cordelia's reference to what they do in the car that would shame her father was about other, lesser sexual acts that weren't going all the way?

      Did Faith make reference to Xander being experienced or being impressed? I remember that opening scene where she and Buffy are battling vamps, and she just can't believe that Buffy's never slept with him. But I thought she was so shocked by it because... well, she sleeps around a lot and is always horny after slaying, so she assumes that Buffy should be too, and Xander's just around. I don't remember her saying anything about how great the experience was.

      However, I definitely agree that Xander and Cordy SHOULD have had sex. Just don't think they actually did.

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      • #4
        I don't know why Xander and Cordelia *should* have had sex. No one *should have* to have sex. It's a personal decision from the parties involved. Xander and/or Cordelia didn't feel ready to have sex while they were dating. That's completely legitimate, especially for individuals that are still teenagers in high school. Moreover given that Xander cheated on Cordelia with Willow, it's probably for the best for Cordelia that Cordelia wasn't further invested in Xander as a sexual partner. At least, I would imagine that Cordelia would be even more hurt by Xander's betrayal if she and Xander were invested in each other as sexual partners.

        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
        And Xander's story would make a little more sense if he was actually having sex with Cordy. For example, we're supposed to just believe that the virgin Xander impressed the very experienced Faith.
        I don't think Xander was that great in bed in The Zeppo. Faith let him out with an insincere "That was great. I gotta take a shower" to get Xander out the door quickly. But then Faith-in-Buffy gave more honest, "what's really on her mind" snark here:

        Anya: We were gonna light a bunch of candles and have sex near them.
        Buffy: Well, we certainly don't want to cut into that seven minutes.
        Anya: Hey.
        Xander: I believe that's my hey.
        I also think there's a great deal of pathos to the fact that Xander's first sexual experience went so horribly with Faith. I wish it had been developed more but the fact that Faith put Xander in so much pain and the gang barely took heed of it meshes with Xander's decline in confidence and happiness through S3-4. There was less pathos to Cordelia's first time going so poorly in Expecting because that was a non-event ep. However, Xander's poor first time with Faith colored a bigger, better arc. It's just unfortunate that there wasn't more Xander Of It.
        Last edited by Dipstick; 05-12-13, 02:00 PM.

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        • #5
          The sex in the Zeppo seemed to be more rushed than good. I remember Xander telling Faith that it went like a blur. Here's the quote:

          Faith: *I* know what this is all about. (steps closer) You just came by
          here (runs her fingertips all around his face) 'cause you want another
          taste, don't you?

          Xander: No! I mean, it was nice. It was great. It was kind of a blur.
          And then there's Faith's seven minutes comment as Dipstick pointed out. So obviously Xander wasn't experienced and obviously it was Xander's first time because during his first time with Anya, he compared her approach with his only sexual experience, with Faith. "More romantic than Faith."
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          • #6
            It's been a subject of conversation before, that of Cordelia's virtue. I think there is pretty solid evidence that she graduated Sunnydale High still a virgin, and didn't lose her V-card until she was unfortunately knocked up by that demon in "Expecting". Nothing dispositive, but reason to suspect.

            Go to "City of..." in "Angel"-- when she is with Russell Winters (and before deducing he was a vampire), she had clearly realized that his career guidance would likely come at the expense of sexual services. And she immediately becomes very shy and hesitant. Now, of course, some of that may stem from a sense of shame that she was essentially considering prostituting herself, however, it also may suggest just straight up sexual inexperience as well. In "Expecting", something about her comportment, at least to me, doesn't suggest a lot of experience with "the dance", i.e. getting there, although at least that might suggest she's never had sex on the first date.

            I don't know, it's just my perception that Cordelia never gave it up in high school. Doesn't one of her various Sunnydale suitors even complain upon it?

            Turning to Xander, there's no mystery, he didn't have actual sexual intercourse until he slept with Faith. As for the question of his skill or talent, I'd say it falls mostly in favor of what we're often told. I, like Dipstick, don't take Faith's dismissal in "The Zeppo" as a genuine review for CNet or anything, but I don't find it so much "insincere" as just "disinterested". Whole thing was just a pat statement to brush him out the door. As for her cutting remark in "Who Are You?"... I really take it as just a gratuitous shot, one that has probably been made to every guy ever at some point who alludes to himself + sex, whether that's someone who has actually slept with him or even if the guy were still a virgin. The evidence in favor of is much stronger. Faith's words in "Bad Girls" for instance -- why would she disbelieve Buffy had never fooled around with and/or [email protected]#$ed Xander if he was lousy at it? Or in any particular way unattractive? You don't say to a friend "I can't believe you've never tried that restaurant!" if you think the restaurant sucks or is at least nothing worth mentioning, do you? And again, why would Faith, several years later, joke about holding her getting to Xander first, to a bunch of girls no less, if she found the whole thing "meh"?

            But for all that, Anya Anya Anya. Can anyone think of a single character this side of Illyria that's more likely to be bluntly honest than Anya? Anya would sing to everybody that would listen in Season 4 about Xander's sexual ability. But is Anya the sort to just make that up to brag to others? No. If Anya thought he wasn't anything special in bed, she'd have probably been more likely to go find someone else who was and have done with it than she would be to pretend the opposite was true AND never shut up about it. Upshot is, whatever else Xander is or isn't, homes can lay the pipe -- or in honor of his vocation, the wood.

            Now, as for Cordy and Xander, I'm with Dipstick, nobody "should" have sex, not as a function of some sort of social expectation. I just don't think they were ready (probably more a function of Cordelia's choices than his own). Given their age and the society of the time (then and now), I think Xander probably hit a stand-up triple in that relationship, I'd guess probably in his tryst with Willow as well; heavy petting being a pretty common staging area before any actual sex takes place.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              Turning to Xander, there's no mystery, he didn't have actual sexual intercourse until he slept with Faith. As for the question of his skill or talent, I'd say it falls mostly in favor of what we're often told. I, like Dipstick, don't take Faith's dismissal in "The Zeppo" as a genuine review for CNet or anything, but I don't find it so much "insincere" as just "disinterested". Whole thing was just a pat statement to brush him out the door. As for her cutting remark in "Who Are You?"... I really take it as just a gratuitous shot, one that has probably been made to every guy ever at some point who alludes to himself + sex, whether that's someone who has actually slept with him or even if the guy were still a virgin. The evidence in favor of is much stronger. Faith's words in "Bad Girls" for instance -- why would she disbelieve Buffy had never fooled around with and/or [email protected]#$ed Xander if he was lousy at it? Or in any particular way unattractive? You don't say to a friend "I can't believe you've never tried that restaurant!" if you think the restaurant sucks or is at least nothing worth mentioning, do you? And again, why would Faith, several years later, joke about holding her getting to Xander first, to a bunch of girls no less, if she found the whole thing "meh"?
              I do think that Xander, like most people, was pretty meh the first time especially to Faith who is sexually experienced and had sex with a lot of sexually experienced people. Statistically, most people are clumsy and don't know how to fully control their bodies during their first time. That's one of the reasons why the "seven minutes" joke is so funny and creepy- it's because it's *Faith* who *had sex with Xander* snarking with full knowledge of having done it before instead of just Buffy making some snarky remark without having ever been with Xander.

              I think that Faith was questioning that Buffy hadn't had sex with Xander because Xander is a handsome guy who hangs out with and fights demons (which is a turn on for Faith) alongside Buffy. Not because Xander is aces in bed. BTW, it's also an odd question for Faith to ask now that I think of it. Was Faith too obtuse to get what "I've never been up with people" meant? It seems like Faith got it with "I'll steer you around the curves". You could argue that Faith knew that Xander was a virgin and was just needling Buffy there. Still, Buffy wouldn't even know to approach Xander for being aces in bed. However, Faith would feel that Buffy should want a piece of Xander-meat for Xander being obviously good-looking and fighting alongside Buffy.

              I think that Faith was partly bragging in S7 that she got to Xander first because Xander has tremendous status as Buffy's Right Hand Man and he's a bona fide hero with lots of world-savage under his belt and the Potentials liked Xander. Faith was looking to establish that she also has intimate history with the Scoobies to burnish her image in front of the Potentials and to snark on the Scoobies for treating her like an outsider even though...Xander, at least, was very "inside" her. Faith was making a funny and doing a bit of power play by bringing up the sex. It's not because she scored with a big Don Juan or a master of foreplay or whatever.

              But for all that, Anya Anya Anya. Can anyone think of a single character this side of Illyria that's more likely to be bluntly honest than Anya? Anya would sing to everybody that would listen in Season 4 about Xander's sexual ability. But is Anya the sort to just make that up to brag to others? No. If Anya thought he wasn't anything special in bed, she'd have probably been more likely to go find someone else who was and have done with it than she would be to pretend the opposite was true AND never shut up about it. Upshot is, whatever else Xander is or isn't, homes can lay the pipe -- or in honor of his vocation, the wood.
              I think Xander got better at sex from The Zeppo to The Harsh Light of Day. He learned what to expect and had an experience with the mechanics in action with his first time. His miserable experience with Faith really hammered home that sex is about respect and sharing something intimate which gave him depth on the emotional/"respect and read your partner to confirm they're enjoying themselves during the act" side. He spent a summer on the road doing stuff at the fabulous Ladies Night club that he did not want to repeat to Buffy. Whatever that means. By his relationship with Anya, I'd agree that Xander was pretty unimpeachably good in bed because I totally take Anya's word for that.

              Now, as for Cordy and Xander, I'm with Dipstick, nobody "should" have sex, not as a function of some sort of social expectation. I just don't think they were ready (probably more a function of Cordelia's choices than his own). Given their age and the society of the time (then and now), I think Xander probably hit a stand-up triple in that relationship, I'd guess probably in his tryst with Willow as well; heavy petting being a pretty common staging area before any actual sex takes place.
              Cordy and Xander may have been on third base. It seems reasonable given that Oz and Willow were rounding second by Homecoming and I'd imagine that Cordy and Xander were further along in that area. However, I think that we saw pretty much all of the Xander/Willow kissage that occurred. Xander/Willow wasn't an affair in the sense that they arranged to meet each other in private places to get to third base. They just kind of fell into kissing or pretty innocent crossing the line touching like footsie or hair stroking as they hung out together as friends and they felt spontaneously tempted and attracted. Based on what we saw, Xander/Willow was pretty firmly stuck in first base until Lover's Walk when they were grinding more on the bed and it was approaching second base....but they were caught before it could go further.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
                I do think that Xander, like most people, was pretty meh the first time especially to Faith who is sexually experienced and had sex with a lot of sexually experienced people. Statistically, most people are clumsy and don't know how to fully control their bodies during their first time.
                See, I get all that, but in the holistic view, and per her immediately angling around the topic with Buffy, I took it as her having found a worthy young grasshopper

                That's one of the reasons why the "seven minutes" joke is so funny and creepy- it's because it's *Faith* who *had sex with Xander* snarking with full knowledge of having done it before instead of just Buffy making some snarky remark without having ever been with Xander.
                I think it's such a well worn gratuitious shot IRL, whether informed or not, I just don't take it as anything other than that *shrug*.

                I think that Faith was questioning that Buffy hadn't had sex with Xander because Xander is a handsome guy who hangs out with and fights demons (which is a turn on for Faith) alongside Buffy. Not because Xander is aces in bed. BTW, it's also an odd question for Faith to ask now that I think of it. Was Faith too obtuse to get what "I've never been up with people" meant? It seems like Faith got it with "I'll steer you around the curves". You could argue that Faith knew that Xander was a virgin and was just needling Buffy there. Still, Buffy wouldn't even know to approach Xander for being aces in bed. However, Faith would feel that Buffy should want a piece of Xander-meat for Xander being obviously good-looking and fighting alongside Buffy.
                Well, I don't think Faith was actually of an inclination to say "you should sleep with Xander, trust me", but just sort of curious about the thing. Still, it does feel like more of a bring-on than a warn-off. She seemed genuinely disbelieving that Buffy hadn't gone there, and within just days or a short time after having slept with him herself. That feels very much like some sort of implicit endorsement, just from how Eliza reads the lines. None of it conveys that she was disappointed with what happened.

                I think that Faith was partly bragging in S7 that she got to Xander first because Xander has tremendous status as Buffy's Right Hand Man and he's a bona fide hero with lots of world-savage under his belt and the Potentials liked Xander. Faith was looking to establish that she also has intimate history with the Scoobies to burnish her image in front of the Potentials and to snark on the Scoobies for treating her like an outsider even though...Xander, at least, was very "inside" her. Faith was making a funny and doing a bit of power play by bringing up the sex. It's not because she scored with a big Don Juan or a master of foreplay or whatever.
                I guess, but it's kinda... I don't know, how much of a power play is it really? Does "I banged the second in command-ish guy 4 years ago, once" really elevate her status in the command structure? Especially since she explicitly referred to having thrown it at Anya, not just out there for the Potentials' benefit (although the thought makes me giggle anew at Buffy's one-sided phone conversation with Xander about shower etiquette in the Summers' Home -- "of course they're curious!"). Anya's estimation of Faith wouldn't go up, surely.

                To be clear, though, I'm not saying that it was a big Don Juan advertisement, just that... she clearly recalled as being something worth bothering to mention, right? To even use it in giving Anya shit, let's say it was bad, wouldn't the riff be more of a "yeah, good luck with that" or "must have low standards" or something? Not "ha ha, beat you!"?

                Cordy and Xander may have been on third base. It seems reasonable given that Oz and Willow were rounding second by Homecoming and I'd imagine that Cordy and Xander were further along in that area. However, I think that we saw pretty much all of the Xander/Willow kissage that occurred. Xander/Willow wasn't an affair in the sense that they arranged to meet each other in private places to get to third base. They just kind of fell into kissing or pretty innocent crossing the line touching like footsie or hair stroking as they hung out together as friends and they felt spontaneously tempted and attracted. Based on what we saw, Xander/Willow was pretty firmly stuck in first base until Lover's Walk when they were grinding more on the bed and it was approaching second base....but they were caught before it could go further.
                All plausible, but I have always felt that, had no interruption come (i.e. Cordy and Oz don't show up, Spike swans off, it takes a little while for Angel and Buffy to get there), I actually think they'd have probably made love thinking they were facing their imminent deaths. It's in the performance, I think -- that sense of one of those real life occasions where what was supposed to just be a kiss turns into everything else out of momentum alone.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                  She seemed genuinely disbelieving that Buffy hadn't gone there, and within just days or a short time after having slept with him herself. That feels very much like some sort of implicit endorsement, just from how Eliza reads the lines. None of it conveys that she was disappointed with what happened.
                  I don't think she was disappointed but I don't think it was about an endorsement per se. I think her surprise is because Xander is a convenient, horny teenager and slaying gets Faith going so she can't see why Buffy wouldn't have taken the easy, and very likely very willing, option at some point. Faith entirely treated Xander as a convenient sexual partner to use, to the level of disregard of pushing him out the door straight away after, and is just bemused that Buffy hasn't done the same. It is more about her utter lack of appreciation/experience of a platonic male friendship and seeing Xander as a nearby piece of meat to pick up and drop at will than anything to do with him in that scene I think.

                  Anya makes it clear that she/Xander have a great sex life and that she is very satisfied, so him having some naturally competent moves seems entirely realistic. But I have to go with the point Dipstick made that first times are typically unskilled. Faith had enough experience to get her own job done with a willing partner, even in seven minutes . Faith enjoys sex and Xander obviously didn't turn out to be a disappointment but I doubt he registered on her richter scale. I have to say that in itself is a good achievement for the first time.

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                  • #10
                    King, I see your point. BUT IMO, there wasn't an evidence, like you said, that Cordy was virgin in the end of highschool. At first place, unlike Buffy and Willow , she has a lot of dates with a different boys. One of the them I believe his name was Devon - in the music band , who left her. It was revealed in episode "Haloween", when Cordy told Oz - "Say Devon I don't care ....., or better , say him nothing ...... ". Before Devon, there were others boys . In episode "Out of mind, out of sight" she has dating with other boy - in the baseball school team, who was badly bitten by the invisible girl / Marcie Ross /. So, for me Cordy wasn't virgin after highschool. She also didn't acting like a shamefull virgin in "Excpecting ". She even wanted to sleep with this man , despite that the ghoust Denis try to makes her to quit her date. Willow and Buffy lost thier virtues with the man they loved - with Oz and Angel. It is understandable. But in Buffy series / unlike Angel series /, Cordelia wasn described like a kind and nice and polite, and devout girl. For me, for this Cordelia in Buffy series, wasn't a problem to have sex with someone who is not her big and true love. If this wasn't so, Cordy has to wait to make a sex for the firs time with Angel in ATS, S 4, LOL.

                    For me, the same is with Harmony . Or you think that Harmony graduated virgin too and Spike is the first Harmony's man.
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                    • #11
                      _Buffy_

                      * I reason that Cordy not having sex with Xander-someone whom she was in love-means that she didn't have sex with anyone before Xander. The only coming on and whatever after Xander that Cordy had is with Wesley and Cordy never had sex with Wesley. It's almost certain that Cordy graduated high school a virgin.

                      ____________________________________

                      * Buffy also had "a lot of dates with different boys". In the "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) flashback, she was dating two guys at once.


                      * It's a popular assumption that Harmony Kendall lost her virginity to Spike.


                      * Cordelia and Harmony having boyfriends while in high school doesn't automatically mean they weren't virgins when they graduated high school.



                      Draculizzie

                      * Faith tells Xander "that was great" while kicking him out of her motel room and it seems Xander ?got her off'. In "Who Are You?" (B 4.16), she makes a reference that Xander didn't ?last long' but she seems to exaggerate.


                      * Faith's not always horny after slaying-it depends on the slaying.



                      Dipstick

                      * It's canon that Xander was "ready" to have sex with Cordelia. Remember "Innocence" (B 2.14)?


                      * It's possible the Xander/Willow stuff wouldn't have happened if Xander/Cordy were having sex.

                      It doesn't seem Cordy would have preferred to lose her virginity to whomever she lost it to rather than lose it to someone who was in love with aka Xander.


                      * "Great in bed" for Faith is relative. Outside of momentary pleasure, it didn't seem she got much actual satisfaction from her sex life. I'm not sure if Faith has EVER been happy with her sex life.


                      * Outside of Xander's learning that Faith doesn't feel "a connection" with Xander, there is zero pathos for Xander regarding his losing his virginity to Faith.


                      * Xander didn't have any decline in confidence because of Xander/Faith and Xander's unhappiness in BtVS S4 revolves around his not being in college with the other Scoobies and his current living situation.


                      * Cordy wasn't a virgin in "Expecting" (AtS s1) and the Cordy stuff in AtS s1 could be because of Jasmine.

                      ____________________________________

                      * Principal Robin Wood wasn't even much impressed with Faith's sexual abilities. Being promiscuous doesn't mean Faith was automatically fantastic in bed.


                      * We aren't talking about the ?real world', we are talking about the Buffyverse. Xander got Faith off. That alone is impressive for a first timer. Buffy impressed Angel, Parker Abrams, and Spike.

                      Still, Buffy wouldn't even know to approach Xander for being aces in bed.
                      Huh? Buffy until
                      Spoiler:
                      she approached him in BtVS S8
                      reasons she could ?have' Xander whenever she wanted.

                      I think that Faith was partly bragging in S7 that she got to Xander first because Xander has tremendous status as Buffy's Right Hand Man and he's a bona fide hero with lots of world-savage under his belt and the Potentials liked Xander.
                      People should stop saying this "Xander is Buffy's Right Hand Man" nonsense. Regarding BtVS S7, Xander is beneath: Spike, Willow, Giles, arguably Kennedy, arguably Andrew, arguably Dawn, arguably Wood, and arguably Faith.

                      I'd say the Potentials Slayer were relatively ambivalent about Xander. They overall liked Willow, Giles, Buffy, and Spike more.

                      Faith was looking to establish that she also has intimate history with the Scoobies to burnish her image in front of the Potentials and to snark on the Scoobies for treating her like an outsider even though...Xander, at least, was very "inside" her.
                      Again, huh? Faith is the other Slayer in the world. Faith took the Potentials Slayer partying. The Potentials quickly liked Faith more than they liked Buffy to the point that Buffy is relatively easily usurped and it takes a major failure from Faith (and a major success for Buffy?) to reestablish Buffy as The Leader for the Potentials Slayer.

                      Faith's main problem in BtVS S7 is Buffy's regard for Faith such as the fact that Buffy never visited Faith in prison and didn't even inform Faith of the Bringers and First Evil killing Potentials Slayer.


                      * In "The Harsh Light of Day" (B 4.03), Xander treated the sex with Anya as a one-time thing. Anya forced a relationship with Xander. We actually don't know if Xander and Anya ever "made love" to each other.



                      Sosa lola

                      * Xander's telling Faith their sex together was "kinda a blur" was likely because of how quickly it happened and how quickly she exited him from her motel room.



                      KingofCretins

                      * Xander's a good-looking guy who dated the most popular girl in Sunnydale High School aka Cordelia. Xander's obviously attracted to Buffy. Faith simply would find it curious that Buffy never ?tried' Xander.

                      "Bad Girls" (B 3.14) doesn't have Faith knowing that Buffy's only had sex one time.


                      * Faith took Xander's virginity and Anya didn't. Faith simply used that fact to ?quiet' Anya or whatever.


                      * Xander was rocking Anya's world, but we don't know who's she's comparing that positively to. Anya was openly gushing about Dracula and Anya was being a puppy with Spike in BtVS S7.

                      nobody "should" have sex, not as a function of some sort of social expectation.
                      If anything, the United States is still relatively Puritan in its attitudes towards sex compared with Europe. "Social expectation" if anything limits and constrains the amount of sex people in the United States have (and nowadays smartphones and social media). Sex is a biological function and one of human's main needs aside from water and food.

                      Given [Xander's and Cordy's] age and the society of the time (then and now),
                      Um, no. WILLOW actually graduated with more sexual experience than Buffy, Cordy, and Xander combined and Willow was well below the average at the time. Kids nowadays are having sexual experiences at a younger age and only smartphones and social media has resulted in a decline in the amount of sexual experiences middle schoolers, high schoolers, and 20-somethings are having.

                      Xander/Willow it seems at most made out-First Base. We never see or hear of Xander/Cordy going beyond first base, but it's possible they got all the way to oral (Third Base).

                      ____________________________________

                      * Faith didn't ?have another go' with Xander. Faith in "Bad Girls" (B 3.14) merely asked Buffy if Buffy's ever had sex with Xander; Faith wasn't suggesting Xander was a current worthy sex partner for Buffy.


                      * Xander didn't deny to Faith-Buffy that he didn't ?last a long time' with Faith.


                      * It's beyond laughable to refer to Xander as Buffy's second in command outside of
                      Spoiler:
                      BtVS S8
                      , especially in BtVS S7. I don't recall Xander's having any position of power within Buffy and Co. in BtVS S7 and any positon of authority outside of his saying how awesome Buffy is. Those like Buffy, Giles, Willow, Spike, Kennedy, Andrew, and Wood had positions of power and authority within Buffy and Co.


                      * "I got there first." is more of a guy thing and it didn't make much sense with Faith. Angel used it against Xander but that's largely because by then Angel reasoned Xander didn't have much chance with Buffy. It didn't make much sense for Faith to use it with Anya regarding Xander because Anya wasn't interested in Xander at the time Faith had sex with Xander.


                      * It's not as if Xander and Willow were heavily groping and they certainly weren't tearing each other's clothes off in "Lovers Walk" (B 3.08). Willow was trying to do a de-lusting spell earlier.

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                      • #12
                        I reason that Cordy not having sex with Xander—someone whom she was in love—means that she didn’t have sex with anyone before Xander. The only coming on and whatever after Xander that Cordy had is with Wesley and Cordy never had sex with Wesley. It’s almost certain that Cordy graduated high school a virgin.
                        Just because Cordy didn't have sex with Xander doesn't mean she was a virgin.

                        It’s a popular assumption that Harmony Kendall lost her virginity to Spike
                        I've actually never heard this before and to be honest I hope it isn't true. I hope that Harmony did know love before becoming a vampire, or that would make her character even more tragic to me.

                        “Great in bed” for Faith is relative. Outside of momentary pleasure, it didn’t seem she got much actual satisfaction from her sex life. I’m not sure if Faith has EVER been happy with her sex life.
                        I always thought that Faith was very happy in her sex life. I thin it was more likely her lack of a love lfie that gave her dissatisfaction, but I doubt she even gave that much thought.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          I've actually never heard this before and to be honest I hope it isn't true. I hope that Harmony did know love before becoming a vampire, or that would make her character even more tragic to me.
                          I don't think that Harmony was a virgin before she met Spike, but I don't think she knew love, either. What we know of her high school love life suggests she always had poor self-esteem and dated shallow popular guys who weren't even all that into her (she dated the singer of Oz's band who generally is willing to sleep with any good-looking woman but who finally dumped her because he found her "too flaky"; in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, she was bragging how she was going to be going to the prom with some popular guy, if the other two girls he asked first refuse him). It's most likely that she was already used to getting used and discarded by guys.

                          I always thought that Faith was very happy in her sex life. I thin it was more likely her lack of a love lfie that gave her dissatisfaction, but I doubt she even gave that much thought.
                          I don't think she was "very happy" in her sex life. People with a healthy attitude to sexuality don't rape/try to rape people. They don't try to use sex as a power play or to avoid dealing with emotional issues. (See Faith's treatment of Xander in season 3, or what she did to Riley, or how she tried to 'steal' Angel from Buffy in S3.) A girl with a healthy attitude to sex doesn't say things such as "every man is an animal" and out to use you and discard you (and then goes on to treat men - like Xander - the same way), and does not immediately approach every male and/or older person with the idea that all they're looking for from her is sex (see how she first approached the Mayor and how she reacted when Lilah came to bail her out of jail in AtS). I also don't think that it's a sign of a healthy sex life when someone sees sex only as a way to use and abuse people or get used or abused, and is only able to have a genuine and emotional relationship with people after she's sure they aren't interested in having sex with her (e.g. with the Mayor or with Angel post-season 3). The show tried to show she was getting over that type of thinking when she seemed to start a long-term relationship with Wood, but the comics showed that the relationship, for whatever reason, did not work out, and Faith was again completely unwilling to talk to Wood about herself when he called her.

                          Many fans think that Faith was probably sexually abused when she was younger. We don't get any explicit confirmation - unlike the physical abuse which we know she suffered from her mother - but there are a lot of worrying signs: all the things I mentioned before, the way she thinks about sex, the way she talks about men in general, the way she assumes men and older people in general have a sexual interest in her; plus, in Dirty Girls she talks about having sexual relationships with married bankers etc., and keep in mind that she was just 18 when she came to Sunnydale, and all those things had to happen before (she was in a coma for almost a year, and then went to jail quickly afterwards). At the very least, unless we assume she was just making stuff up, she used to be a troubled, poor underage girl having sexual relationships with well-situated older men. All those things set off all kinds of alarms. I think she was, at the very least, sexually harassed if not abused by older men (possibly including her mother's boyfriends or friends) when she was a younger teenager, and then got used to using her sexuality to get things she needed - like money, food, a place to live - as she would have thought of her looks/sex appeal as her main weapon/tool before she got her powers. There's been some discussion about it before (I think some of it on this forum; there definitely was on Livejournal blogs of some of the forum members) and some fans thought she may have been engaging in prostitution, while others thought she didn't but that it was more likely she would do things like hook up with a guy and then use it to steal his money. When she got her powers, she must have been overjoyed that she was not in a position of weakness anymore and was finally able to deal with issues in other ways, and she also seemed to enjoy turning the tables and now using violence (physical, but also at times sexual violence) against others.

                          In any case, however we imagine Faith's past, it's clear that she has a lot of emotional issues and that her attitude to sex is a part of it. No doubt she gets physical pleasure out of sex, but I certainly don't think it's a source of happiness for her.
                          Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 10-01-18, 03:39 PM.
                          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                          • #14
                            I don't think that Harmony was a virgin before she met Spike, but I don't think she knew love, either. What we know of her high school love life suggests she always had poor self-esteem and dated shallow popular guys who weren't even all that into her (she dated the singer of Oz's band who generally is willing to sleep with any good-looking woman but who finally dumped her because he found her "too flaky"; in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, she was bragging how she was going to be going to the prom with some popular guy, if the other two girls he asked first refuse him). It's most likely that she was already used to getting used and discarded by guys.
                            Poor Harmony, even if she never found love I hope that she had some good sex to make up for it. I'm not sure Harmony was bothered by how she was treated by men until she became a vampire. It felt like she accepted the way she was treated, which is sad for us the audience to watch, but it didn't seem to hurt Harmony in-show.

                            I don't think she was "very happy" in her sex life. People with a healthy attitude to sexuality don't rape/try to rape people. They don't try to use sex as a power play or to avoid dealing with emotional issues. (See Faith's treatment of Xander in season 3, or what she did to Riley, or how she tried to 'steal' Angel from Buffy in S3.) A girl with a healthy attitude to sex doesn't say things such as "every man is an animal" and out to use you and discard you (and then goes on to treat men - like Xander - the same way), and does not immediately approach every male and/or older person with the idea that all they're looking for from her is sex (see how she first approached the Mayor and how she reacted when Lilah came to bail her out of jail in AtS). I also don't think that it's a sign of a healthy sex life when someone sees sex only as a way to use and abuse people or get used or abused, and is only able to have a genuine and emotional relationship with people after she's sure they aren't interested in having sex with her (e.g. with the Mayor or with Angel post-season 3). The show tried to show she was getting over that type of thinking when she seemed to start a long-term relationship with Wood, but the comics showed that the relationship, for whatever reason, did not work out, and Faith was again completely unwilling to talk to Wood about herself when he called her.
                            I don't think rape and Faith's sex life are the same thing. Rape is a weapon of power, and Faith having sex was about Faith getting off, which appears to have been the case. Even is S7 Faith is talking about 'looking up the guy with the bull whip', she has a very honest and open attitude towards sex.

                            I'm not saying Faith is mentally stable, but I also think the fact she enjoys sex shouldn't be seen as a symptom of her mental instability. It might be sad and unhealthy but I truly think that without the sex and violence Faith would find nothing pleasurable in life.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                              Poor Harmony, even if she never found love I hope that she had some good sex to make up for it. I'm not sure Harmony was bothered by how she was treated by men until she became a vampire. It felt like she accepted the way she was treated, which is sad for us the audience to watch, but it didn't seem to hurt Harmony in-show.



                              I don't think rape and Faith's sex life are the same thing. Rape is a weapon of power, and Faith having sex was about Faith getting off, which appears to have been the case. Even is S7 Faith is talking about 'looking up the guy with the bull whip', she has a very honest and open attitude towards sex.

                              I'm not saying Faith is mentally stable, but I also think the fact she enjoys sex shouldn't be seen as a symptom of her mental instability. It might be sad and unhealthy but I truly think that without the sex and violence Faith would find nothing pleasurable in life.
                              I never said that Faith enjoying sex is a sign of mental instability. I don't even know how much she does or does not enjoy sex. I said that the way she sees sex as a weapon and something that's either about using/abusing people or getting used/abused is a sign of an unhealthy attitude to sexuality. And her attempted rape of Xander in S3 was very much connected to her attitude to sexuality. He came to talk to her about her problems, trying to appeal to her emotionally (incorrectly thinking they had some sort of a bond because they had had sex), and she reacted by first dismissing his words and insisting that he's only interested in sex and that he's probably bragging about it to his friends (reinforcing the negative idea she has about how men behave sexually) and then went on to act exactly the way that she thinks men always act - sexually aggressive and violent. She was going to use sex to shut him up and dismiss the things he's saying, to prove something, and then she went on to try to choke him. It was a power play and it's a sign of her unhealthy views on sex and probably her bad experiences.
                              You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                                I never said that Faith enjoying sex is a sign of mental instability. I don't even know how much she does or does not enjoy sex. I said that the way she sees sex as a weapon and something that's either about using/abusing people or getting used/abused is a sign of an unhealthy attitude to sexuality. And her attempted rape of Xander in S3 was very much connected to her attitude to sexuality. He came to talk to her about her problems, trying to appeal to her emotionally (incorrectly thinking they had some sort of a bond because they had had sex), and she reacted by first dismissing his words and insisting that he's only interested in sex and that he's probably bragging about it to his friends (reinforcing the negative idea she has about how men behave sexually) and then went on to act exactly the way that she thinks men always act - sexually aggressive and violent. She was going to use sex to shut him up and dismiss the things he's saying, to prove something, and then she went on to try to choke him. It was a power play and it's a sign of her unhealthy views on sex and probably her bad experiences.
                                Totally agree with this, but I would also say it does not negate my original point, which is that Faith enjoys the sex she has. There is nothing in the show that makes me think that when she has sex, with either Riley or Xander, that she does not enjoy it, and she takes pleasure from that enjoyment and that makes her happy.

                                Why she is having sex, the reasoning behind it, is a different issue and does go to speak to her mental state. I admit that it probably comes down to me finding it annoying and retrograde that the one female in the show who is open and honest about enjoying sex, and does not need to feel emotionally attached to someone to enjoy having sex with them, is written as mentally unstable, but that's just my issue

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                                  Totally agree with this, but I would also say it does not negate my original point, which is that Faith enjoys the sex she has. There is nothing in the show that makes me think that when she has sex, with either Riley or Xander, that she does not enjoy it, and she takes pleasure from that enjoyment and that makes her happy.

                                  Why she is having sex, the reasoning behind it, is a different issue and does go to speak to her mental state. I admit that it probably comes down to me finding it annoying and retrograde that the one female in the show who is open and honest about enjoying sex, and does not need to feel emotionally attached to someone to enjoy having sex with them, is written as mentally unstable, but that's just my issue
                                  None of the males on the show are shown to be having casual sex and enjoying it, either - apart from a minor character like Parker, who is portrayed as a real jerk. Other than that, the closest to it that it gets is Spike's relationship with Harmony, but that's portrayed as him being on rebound from Drusilla/using Harmony as a substitute for Buffy, and it's shown to be a bad, unhealthy relationship where Spike treats Harmony terribly and is constantly uncaring of her feelings for him. We don't see any of the characters having casual sex in a healthy way. Anya and Xander start off thinking that they're just having casual sex, but it's clear it's just a smokescreen and that Anya has had a crush on Xander from the beginning, and by mid-season 4 it's clear they both have strong feelings for each other.
                                  You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                                    None of the males on the show are shown to be having casual sex and enjoying it, either - apart from a minor character like Parker, who is portrayed as a real jerk. Other than that, the closest to it that it gets is Spike's relationship with Harmony, but that's portrayed as him being on rebound from Drusilla/using Harmony as a substitute for Buffy, and it's shown to be a bad, unhealthy relationship where Spike treats Harmony terribly and is constantly uncaring of her feelings for him. We don't see any of the characters having casual sex in a healthy way. Anya and Xander start off thinking that they're just having casual sex, but it's clear it's just a smokescreen and that Anya has had a crush on Xander from the beginning, and by mid-season 4 it's clear they both have strong feelings for each other.
                                    Now that you mention that it's actually a bit surprising isn't it? Even on "Angel" not so much, despite it's noir leanings, not Wes or Gunn or Lindsay even. Wonder how much that choice had to do with the Buffyverse's putative core ethos' of feminism (I'm never gonna not asterisk it with Joss anymore), or just happened to work out that way.
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