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AtS - Who Do You Wish You'd Seen More Of?

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  • Nina
    replied
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post


    However, with that said I do agree with you that the character changed significantly. Obviously some of it is down to natural character development but I do notice a shift in how the writing seems to perceive Angel. For instance, in later seasons Angel is regularly described or accused of being "grumpy" whereas in BtVS-Early AtS he was described as "broody." There actually is a distinction between the two. To go in hand with this, the later seasons regularly tease the character or portray him as an "old man" which in-turn kind of sets him up to be this "grumpy old man" which is a very different vibe to AtS S1 Angel who, despite actually being 240 years old, is portrayed still as a rather young action hero.
    Oh, I didn't notice that they switched to grumpy and the idea that he is 'an old man'. Good catch. It certainly transforms Angel from this mysterious character who isn't fully human, into a more ordinary one. And I think you can also see that in the way his team treats him. Doyle, Cordy and Wesley were very much aware of Angel not being an ordinary human. That could be heart warming (like Cordy buying him art supplies to make him feel more connected), but I also felt Angel's outburst in s2:

    "Now I got Wolfram and Hart dogging me, it's too much! Two hundred highly intelligent law-school graduates working fulltime driving me crazy. Why the hell is everyone so surprised that it's working? But no, it's 'Angel, why you're so cranky?' 'Angel, you should lighten up. You should smile. You should wear a nice plaid.'"

    They were so aware of the demon, they forgot that Angel is also a man. Like his only weakness is the demon. I think we talked about it in the UO thread, but it's really weird that Wesley and Cordy were not alarmed by Angel's behaviour earlier on in s2.

    In s5 nobody considers Angel a demon. In general I think that is an improvement since nothing is more alienating than being dehumanized by everbody, but it's also really different. And maybe a bit odd to just ignore such a major part of Angel. It changed the character and his role in the show.




    He also becomes far more "bull-ish" from around S3 onwards. I actually suspect this is partially to do with DB's build changing during this period of time which in-turn influenced the writing and even the stunt work, but early Angel was portrayed as "stealthy" whereas later Angel is like a bull in a china shop. Early Angel was still physically threatening (see City Of... and In the Dark when he's tracking down Russell and Spike) but it's just a very different vibe from later Angel who is very aggressive in his posture and tone (both with enemies and friends alike).
    Funny, I certainly considered that Angel was influenced more by DB. But I never thought about it being a physical matter. But you might be right. I do know that Whedon once said that he enjoyed using DB's ability to do a good fake punch. And recently I saw a YT video in which somebody explained how Henry Cavill is a good swordsman (for a non-stuntman) and that this did allow the makers of The Witcher to do some cool scenes they couldn't do otherwise. So I can certainly see how DB being able to do certain things well (and have a certain build) was attractive for directors.

    Leave a comment:


  • vampmogs
    replied
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    Is it cheating to say early Angel? People always talk about Cordy being suddenly different in s3, but roughly the same happened with the main character. Which is a bit odd. At the time we're in s5, he is almost a completely new character. Thanks to Soulless we know that some of his ignorance in s3 and s4 was faked. But I don't believe for one second that he faked it in s5. He is loud, obnoxious, not that smart and really rude. He is no longer reading, there is no art collection/love for the arts, he is very egocentric etc. And I do understand people change, and not always for the best. But it's so extreme in Angel's case. My fanwank is that he is overstrung due to the insanity of his life after s1. But in the end it's just a fanwank.
    I do think it's deliberate in S5 that Angel isn't himself. It's commented on frequently by the other characters, in Cautionary Tale... he's lost his champions heart and hope, he's defeated by Spike in Destiny because "Spike wanted it more", his mental breakdown and self-doubt his explored throughout Soul Purpose, he has to find himself again in You're Welcome etc etc. Generally speaking he is meant to be unhappy, riddled with self-doubt and a shell of his former self and S5 makes a lot of past references to S1 Angel and the stark contrast between them.

    However, with that said I do agree with you that the character changed significantly. Obviously some of it is down to natural character development but I do notice a shift in how the writing seems to perceive Angel. For instance, in later seasons Angel is regularly described or accused of being "grumpy" whereas in BtVS-Early AtS he was described as "broody." There actually is a distinction between the two. To go in hand with this, the later seasons regularly tease the character or portray him as an "old man" which in-turn kind of sets him up to be this "grumpy old man" which is a very different vibe to AtS S1 Angel who, despite actually being 240 years old, is portrayed still as a rather young action hero. You're also right that it was a pretty central part of early Angel's characterisation that he was worldly and interested in literature and art and over time this seems to get neglected and he instead is portrayed as more of a jock-type ice hockey fan. He also becomes far more "bull-ish" from around S3 onwards. I actually suspect this is partially to do with DB's build changing during this period of time which in-turn influenced the writing and even the stunt work, but early Angel was portrayed as "stealthy" whereas later Angel is like a bull in a china shop. Early Angel was still physically threatening (see City Of... and In the Dark when he's tracking down Russell and Spike) but it's just a very different vibe from later Angel who is very aggressive in his posture and tone (both with enemies and friends alike).

    The way he communicates with people is also very different. He's far gentler with Doyle and even AtS S1 Wesley whereas with later Wesley, Gunn, Connor and especially Lorne he can be very aggressive and borderline bully-ish at times. When Doyle would make him mad he was still softer and more considered whereas in later seasons he'd probably have been written to get up his face, grab his collar etc.

    There's definitely a shift in how he's written. As you have said, some of it is just character development and is inevitable and expected. Very few, if any, of the characters are the same in the end as to how they started out. But I do think with Angel it is slightly more than that and there's this weird flip in his characterisation in the later seasons that is quite different to how he's written earlier on. I really love Angel throughout but I do prefer the early incarnation if forced to choose.

    Leave a comment:


  • BtVS fan
    replied
    I think Kate should've had a resolution. After a Epiphany she's gone and just has a throwaway line about her in Dead End.

    I did read that Lindsey and Darla were going to have bigger ends in S2 but both actress and actor were leaving the show and so they did the Pylea arc instead I have no idea if that's true though.

    American Aurora I agree I love Damage and that moment. Sadly its forgotten about by the next episode (David Fury written) where Spike is having psychotic rages over his Xbox and biting Cordelia for a taste test (wait what )
    Dana is never brought up or mentioned again either in the show or the comics which makes me think Joss didn't like the underlying implications of Dana undercutting his empowerment moment in Chosen.
    Plus Angel is not throttling Andrew the next time he sees him in TGIQ and Spike who told Andrew not to tell Buffy about him has no problem showing up and knocking on her door either

    For me the big one is I wish we'd seen more of Gunn. Now that may sound strange given he showed up at the end of S1 and was a reg from S2 onwards but he really didn't do much at all not until S5 where he was the contrast to the rest of the group anyway. Like the writers made him a regular then had no idea what to do with him and honestly seemed to feel uncomfortable writing him. So in S2 he was Wesley sidekick. In S3 and S4 he was part of a love triangle that was written as sickly as possible. None of that had any real relevance to Angel and his story. J A Richards is a fantastic and charismatic actor and the character was incredibly interesting with great potential and they did F all with him.

    Leave a comment:


  • American Aurora
    replied
    The whole fifth season of Spike on Angel was worth it to me for that last scene in Damage. One of the best moments in either series, period. Wish they had gone in that direction much more - I mean we've got TWO vampires with a soul now and I would have loved to see more examination and discussion of how they feel then and now - including their feelings towards each other as mirror images.

    Darla's death was brilliant, but I selfishly wish there was even more of her in AtS.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    commented on 's reply
    I gave s5 up as a season that tells us something good or interesting about the main characters. It has some good episodes and cool ideas, so I focus on that. ^^

  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    Well yes, I can't disagree with the writing choosing comedy over character quality moments in S5, both Spike and Angel suffered from that. I just try to see the throughlines to live with it more happily.

  • Nina
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post

    I think that Angel's experiences across S3-4 essentially led to a period of self crisis across S5. He was very out of character emotionally in that season because of what led to it I think and in trying to force himself into a role. So he was 'off' but in a way that worked because it was explainable and it all showed outwardly. I do very much understand wanting to have seen more of him having come through that period, but I don't think it is fanwank to say he was struggling as a result of the life he'd been trying to live. I think that's very much text in his disassociation, struggle and the price of the compromise he made in going to W&H. It would have been great to have got another season and seen him pull back through. Especially if it had combined with seeing some more of Connor as well.
    You have more faith in the writers than I have. I don't think it was part of his story (hence why I use fanwank) but a simple case of writers being tired of Angel. Looking at s5, all I can think of is that they enjoyed DB's knack for comedy (especially in combination with JM) and went for it without caring that much about the damage they did to the character. A lot of the moments where Angel appears dumb or careless, are played for laughs and not as a serious sign something is off. Even if the moment calls for something more serious (like, by example, the end of Lineage), the writers went for comedy!Angel.


    In s3 and s4 I could believe that the writers were writing an overstrung Angel. There were moments like Angelus telling us that Angel sees and knows more than we thought he did. Or how Couplet ends with Angel giving Cordy his money. Those little things help understanding that he isn't a stranger. And, at least in s3, there was a good arc to balance out his more obnoxious moments.

    Leave a comment:


  • PuckRobin
    replied
    I certainly think that Faith would definitely have fit in well with the redemption storylines on Angel. She could even function as a sort of Paul Drake like PI to the Evil Perry Mason set up of Wolfram & Hart in season 5.

    And definitely there was a lot more they could have done with Lindsey. That's a character where everything just worked. The casting of Christian Kane, the contrast of his poor past with the young lawyerness of him, the guitar-playing, his rebellion. He really was one of the standout characters of Buffyverse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    Spike's 'Lord' persona was a front of course though, to cover for going out helping save people with Connor. That was revealed right at the beginning.

  • Stoney
    replied
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    I'm not sure if a tv season would've been like that. Ats never had a budget as high as BtVS and an apocalyptic LA would probably be too expensive. They also just spend a lot of money on a new set for s5. So I wouldn't be suprised if s6 would be another W&H season if they were not cancelled. Whedon's plans for an apocalypse in LA might have been made post-NFA for a movie/comic/reboot etc.
    You might well be right. I have definitely heard it referred to as 'what would have been AtS 6' but that could have just been fans, I don't remember well enough. I'm sure what they did in the comics they wouldn't have attempted the same in a tv season, even if it had been more closely matched plotwise. But I do think that Joss shared some of his ideas for the season on some level with Lynch, I'm just not sure how much they talked beyond that too.

    I do see your point about Faith as being a good fit for AtS and I really like the idea of seeing an alternate slayer/watcher mix. But I think that it brought her story full circle for her to return to Sunnydale and her and Buffy to actually reach a point of connection and understanding as slayers. So I wouldn't have wanted to miss that. I think that she is definitely a character that had scope for more involvement in both shows. She was the best crossover in both as she stayed the most consistent across the two. Seeing more of her in either/both would have been good.

    I think that Angel's experiences across S3-4 essentially led to a period of self crisis across S5. He was very out of character emotionally in that season because of what led to it I think and in trying to force himself into a role. So he was 'off' but in a way that worked because it was explainable and it all showed outwardly. I do very much understand wanting to have seen more of him having come through that period, but I don't think it is fanwank to say he was struggling as a result of the life he'd been trying to live. I think that's very much text in his disassociation, struggle and the price of the compromise he made in going to W&H. It would have been great to have got another season and seen him pull back through. Especially if it had combined with seeing some more of Connor as well.

    Skip was a character that I really enjoyed. The writing for him was always entertaining. I'm not sure how much more use they could have had for him but I would have loved to have seen more of him just to enjoy his voicing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post

    The first 17 issues of After the Fall comics were ones that Joss discussed with Brian Lynch I believe based on his ideas for S6. I do tend to think of those seventeen issues as the canon comics that are 'S6 of AtF'.
    I'm not sure if a tv season would've been like that. Ats never had a budget as high as BtVS and an apocalyptic LA would probably be too expensive. They also just spend a lot of money on a new set for s5. So I wouldn't be suprised if s6 would be another W&H season if they were not cancelled. Whedon's plans for an apocalypse in LA might have been made post-NFA for a movie/comic/reboot etc.


    Anyway characters I would want to see more of:

    Faith. I'm not a huge fan of the Faith/Buffy-dynamic and think that the character Faith will never shine in BtVS where everything is about Buffy being the slayer. But in Ats with Wesley and Angel, she has a place. Especially with Wesley, who kind of lost his way in s4. If Faith stayed in s4, I think both characters would've thrived. And it would be interesting to see another kind of watcher/slayer-combination than Buffy & Giles develop.


    Is it cheating to say early Angel? People always talk about Cordy being suddenly different in s3, but roughly the same happened with the main character. Which is a bit odd. At the time we're in s5, he is almost a completely new character. Thanks to Soulless we know that some of his ignorance in s3 and s4 was faked. But I don't believe for one second that he faked it in s5. He is loud, obnoxious, not that smart and really rude. He is no longer reading, there is no art collection/love for the arts, he is very egocentric etc. And I do understand people change, and not always for the best. But it's so extreme in Angel's case. My fanwank is that he is overstrung due to the insanity of his life after s1. But in the end it's just a fanwank.

    Anyway, I love early Angel and I think he was a much better character/lead. And it was pretty awesome to have an introvert as a main character.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    ALL CAUGHT UP


    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

    What's said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    AtS = Angel .






    * The After the Fall stuff is very problematic for any Buffy/Spike 'shipper. And IDW's Spike is perhaps even more problematic.

    It's interesting and telling that Spike's version of Heaven is
    Spoiler:
    being a Lord, having Illyria as his personal muscle and love interest, having a harem, and living in the Playboy Mansion. And having who is essentially a Drusilla stand-in as his 'girlfriend'. And Drusilla's version of Heaven is being reunited with her human family.



    * The most obvious answer is Faith Lehane should have been second-lead of AtS. Or I'd actually go so far as to say that Eliza Dushku should have been the lead in AtS.

    AtS mostly seems a way for Joss Whedon to 'break up' Buffy/Angel and make room for Buffy/Spike.

    Angel doesn't move relatively far away from Buffy and he's given massive forced importance given the whole Wolfram & Hart thing is made up for him and given Angel is a lesser version of Spike in terms of combat and popularity and such.

    Having Angel and Faith in the spin-off gives the spin-off some point to it.


    * Cordelia Chase was relatively forced after BtVS S1.


    * AtS S5 has the massive problem of Spike's not going to be with Buffy. And if the Shanshu Prophecy was a real thing: Spike would have been Shanshued after "Chosen" (B 7.22).

    Even Angel's trying to keep Spike incorporeal didn't make much sense given Angel wouldn't risk Buffy's ever finding out that Angel impeded Buffy/Spike to that extent.

    I would have preferred Spike/Fred to Wesley/Fred, but Spike's choosing Fred over Buffy doesn't make much sense either.

    Spike's using Wolfram & Hart's resources to try to help Drusilla would give a plausible excuse to keep him in Los Angeles; so, Juliet Landau should have been in AtS S5 more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
    I would have enjoyed an AtS S6. I really enjoyed Angel and Spike together in S5. I actually liked the cliff hanger ending but I understand it was written for what was an unexpected ending. I wonder if there was a plan for S6?
    The first 17 issues of After the Fall comics were ones that Joss discussed with Brian Lynch I believe based on his ideas for S6. I do tend to think of those seventeen issues as the canon comics that are 'S6 of AtF'.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoSpuffy
    replied
    I would have enjoyed an AtS S6. I really enjoyed Angel and Spike together in S5. I actually liked the cliff hanger ending but I understand it was written for what was an unexpected ending. I wonder if there was a plan for S6?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    started a topic AtS - Who Do You Wish You'd Seen More Of?

    AtS - Who Do You Wish You'd Seen More Of?

    Just like the thread in the BtVS section, this is to see if there were any AtS characters that people wish had been around for more episodes or had eps that were focused specifically on them. Are there other characters that you wish we'd learned more about or would have liked to have seen more regularly?

    I'd have liked to have learned more about Lindsey's background. I just found him a really interesting character. I'd also have loved to have had more Connor in S5 to see more of the person he had become through the combination of his spelled and real experiences. For an even more background character, I thought the imposter who pretended to be the swami in Guise Will Be Guise was excellent. Seeing more of him could have been very entertaining.
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