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What is your opinion of Cangel?

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  • #61
    It would make sense if the moment was afterwards with Buffy as it seems pretty instantaneously gained and lost when it happens, even if there is some disorientation that follows, and Buffy was asleep when Angel went outside.

    When did Angel lose his soul to a poison? Do you mean the euphoria drug in Eternity? I don't actually think that Angel lost his soul then. I think the drug affected him and led to his behaviour, but it was more a side of himself, linking him more to his unsouled self as it being a version of him. I think this reading is there in how Wes responds to the situation when Angel wakes chained and he says it was the drugs, rather than that Angel had lost his soul because he didn't literally lose it. So way Wes saying to him, "You walk a fine line Angel. - I don't envy you." is about the constant situation Angel deals with internally. That's how I've always taken it. It doesn't make any sense to me if he literally lost his soul without any magical intervention or need to resoul him again afterwards.


    • flow
      flow commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes, I meant the drug. It's interesting to think he didn't even lose his soul in that episode and you're right it's not explained how he re-gained it if a complete soul loss had happened. I am not really familiar with Angel but maybe I should at least re-watch that episode.

  • #62
    Originally posted by SpikeRocks View Post
    I love the Cangel build-up we got, and the Cangel that could have been. I definitely ship them.

    There's something Cordy comes back from her vacation with Groo, and it's not just her new hair. This is the moment, to me, where going forward she feels like she's lost her sass and humor and some quintessential Cordy-ness. Idk what happened....maybe something behind the scenes?
    The vacation Groo and Cordy went on was actually time off because Charisma Carpenter had a miscarriage. That's why there's something off when she comes back.
    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.


    • SpikeRocks
      SpikeRocks commented
      Editing a comment
      That would definitely explain it, tho I felt something off in the writing too.....

    • Nina
      Nina commented
      Editing a comment
      I always thought it was because she was getting married and it was her honeymoon. But her having a miscarriage during s3 makes the treatment of her by the staff in s4 even worse.

  • #63
    I'll preface this by saying that I never had any desire for Angel/Cordy to happen and didn't feel that there was any real romantic chemistry between the actors or the characters. However, I think the sudden shift in tone and characterisation for Cordelia is in large part why Cangel never really works.

    From what I can gather, what most people found appealing about the idea of Cordelia as Angel's romantic partner is that as his friend in S1-S2 she was certainly loyal but also ruthlessly cutthroat and would keep him in check. The moment they decide to play the romance the dynamic fundamentally changes and what a lot of people liked about them as friends and saw potential in them as partners, was replaced not only by a much less interesting version of Cordelia herself but also someone who acted as Angel's unwavering cheerleader. For instance, I'm still a little shocked when it's Cordelia telling Angel to kill Holtz in Benediction. I think that's why a lot of people who disliked Cangel in S3-S4 sees the potential in them in You're Welcome because it's the only time throughout their 'relationship' Cordelia acts like her old pre-AtS S3 self.

    But yeah, I'm not a fan. I'd probably go as far to say it's my least favourite major ship in the Buffyverse. I never have found it necessary and I can genuinely say that there's at no point in the series where I think AtS was better for having Cangel than if it had never had it. There's no particular episode or storyline that is heightened for me on account of Cangel and it actually takes place in my least favourite era of the show (S3 and to some extent S4) where, IMO of course, things just get weird and bogged down (baby, Cangel, W/G/F triangle - bleh). I certainly see negatives in the likes of Bangel, Ruffy, Spuffy and Dangel at times too but I can also pick specific moments where I think all of those relationships added something worthwhile to the show and that the series was better for it whereas I honestly cannot do that with Cangel.

    I just find it... unnecessary. They worked perfectly well as friends and Cordy had a much stronger dynamic with the other characters too before she became All About Angel. I was never fan of the execution of it and I find it really strange how all of a sudden the show really emphasises it and then it suddenly abandons it and it kind of peters out into this weird, messy love triangle between Angel and his son. I've always likened it to a plane taxying down the runway and then aborting the flight mid-take off. It's like the writers got cold feet or something which, if you listen to Tim Minear, might actually be the case.

    Overall I feel they'd have been better off just leaving it alone.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~


    • #64
      On the other hand I loved it. Thought as a pairing they worked together more realistically then with Buffy and that with Cordy Angel still grew and developed, but with Buffy Angel seemed always to be either in a holding pattern of would regress somehow.


      • #65
        I think I preferred Kate and Angel though I guess that ended due to Bangal fan backlash in S1 and the actress leaving in S2


        • #66
          I'm kinda torn between what vampmogs says and Silver1's argument. I really liked the relationship in the beginning when she was bossy sister and I should have loved it in the later episodes because it "feels real". But I didn't. That's okay - cos I've just realised why so I'll stay straddling the fence.


          • #67
            I would have loved to see Cangel grow as a relationship. By season 3 they were pretty much perfect for each other


            • #68
              Because I saw Cordy as "an arrogant, entitled bully" running her own "crew" of "most arrogant, entitled, bullies," (on BTVS)-and was half smiling how Buffy ?showed herself' capable of reading signals and capable of fitting in so easily (with all the appropriate "credentials"); I began to see how leaders can actually be followers. (And almost anxiously slavish to the "doormat ideal" for that acceptance displayed by Harmony. Further, Harmony also shows the power that such "clicks" can hold within a society that "craves" the view of "no worries" in having money, position and the reality given these in actual holding of power to "keep things" in that social view. ATS just made them ?monsters' and that is too simplistic.

              Cordy, my least favorite "protagonist" was really the story of "growing up" and having wins and losses-balance and wisdom that seemed "real world" in both surviving and expressing potential in ?accomplishment' and ?ever becoming.'

              THUS! Because Cordelia was really the person who ?revealed' the real journey of human * women *--and therefore, how ATS itself was "weaker" in having so few of them, thus, in the world of "men" (and the oddity of "seeing" all the "magical" solutions "everyone else" seemed to possess), I knew (from myth) she is a (dark haired)" sister-wife"- figure to Angel. See the "weak" myth of "Hercules."

              The fact that she both was supportive of Angel and also "told him off," was gratifying in that being a human being, she had to actually organize her intelligence, talents into some sort of coherent career path that would actually enable her to EAT, to keep a roof over her head because she also must sleep (that also wasn't over the "handy" sewer access that might not keep out the supernaturally "gifted" and "unwanted," should Angel not be home, or the doors properly warded against intrusion.

              This human reality is a serious dividing point between "species"-which means these people can't be "thrown" by the boogity, but have to recognize their own survival is not in supernaturual strength or "presto" spells. Gunn came from a gang of "survivors" that also showed the ?problems' of young humans to be "independent" and yet find certain kinds of security that are both physical and emotional.

              I saw a lot of Cangel as merely explorations of "love objects" that begins with parents, siblings, and friends until independent family formation occurs as adults secure. Yes, it makes for a certain level of "juvenile" curiosity in "Oedipal" or "Freudian" levels of interest, but "acting upon these feelings" is probably "stress" driven when other factors (e.g. hormonal surges of puberty, or "boredom with the self and other choices"?) are not in balance psychologically and physically. NOT a shrink, so I can't speak to someone else's driving make-up as a human engaged in self discovery and finding ?place' or ?partner').

              Bottom line, nothing "real" actually happened e.g. Waiting in the Wings was ?alter' psychological reality (magic); and Angel's journey under drugs and spells with Cangel, wasn't the "final trigger" to his very soul. Buffy was.

              I think the ?overuse' of the fear of "pregnancy" into "mother creator" and "mother whore" was "the point" to me; but was terrible in showing the real world strength of Cordy to actually develop a career, take care of herself and still have the ability to keep her family a lot more "grounded" than they would ever have been-cue literally flying to "alter universes" like some sort of "journey of the Sun" or the crash and burn of flying to close to it, not to mention the usual ?stealing of brides' for the "underworld." Yup, I had a lot of fun!

              However, to see Cordy balance "just everything" to have her so badly derailed in Angel's "crazy," and then "ascend" to?? And then for people to NOT understand "the phone call" when she was absolutely, totally and clearly dead (SHE accomplished the adult world and "left" the ?realm of the child' for her own continued "becoming" in the "REAL WORLD" without the "show" of only ?psychological planes."

              Of course, I probably don't understand ?ATS' at all, as I will never understand the gibberish logic of "Happy Birthday" of the psychological, alternate views of ?potential futures' or time lines or what ever the writers were going for in Cordy talking to herself ?outside of time' and (miraculously) in the wrong order of events shown to "be in the know" thus, far; and Cordelia's "I love Angel" declaration. I * felt * that was either really creepy in it's (literal show) of incestuous, "back door" reciprocation by Angel looking at where "the sun doesn't shine"-tattoo on her back; really forced in the "greatest ADULT (snort) romance" for independent, family formation that, to me, was to fit a new direction that itself bobbled a zillion times ducking kitchen sinks and "real world, behind the scenes factors."

              I salvaged Cordelia for myself and, frankly, she and Xander are the only two humans, who were not "boogity" who actually accomplished adulthood-which NONE of the titular or major protagonists can claim. IMO.

              Even Dawn's pregnancy was "abortive" in her own human development toward true independence in full expression of her independent talents that a (young) mother also must juggle, whether married or not in that "independent family formation" by ADULTS.
              One is ever becoming, but the tv shows use death to show me: I made it to adulthood or "human"-for the "stuck" vampire set(s).

              For me, Buffy had to have the third death for the "story" of accomplishing adulthood and "ever-becoming" that Cordelia actually did, that Spike actually did. IMO.