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  • #41
    Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
    Yeah I agree. I've always hated that a few fans used to rip into the character and call her 'Saint Cordy' just because she,well, basically grew up. Embraced the good and had the courage to stick with it.
    Nah. The fans rip into the writers for going that route and making her boring and unrecognizable. "Growing up" doesn't have to involve losing every trait that made you interesting in the first place. Plus the whole stupid "we are the champions" (not the Queen song, unfortunately) thing.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    • #42
      It was forced and boring. The first of 2 series-killing missteps. The second being Connor. Angel/Nina was better.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Fool for Buffy View Post
        Cangel to me felt forced and unnecessary. It was almost like the writers had decided Cordy and Angel were too good of friends not to be romantically involved. I don't think Angel ever needed a love interest after Buffy, but I did like the fling with Gwen and even Nina. But Angel and Cordy were perfect as best friends. Best friends can fall in love, but a strong woman with a queen attitude and a distant, emotionally private hero with much more important things to focus on are not the type of friends who should take things further.
        Poor Angel! Stuck with one short relationship in 240 years and doomed to never have another. I mean, Buffy is gonna die someday.

        I can never understand the leeway Buffy gets to get into new relationships - to fall in love again - but Angel can't because he had the great romance. Not every relationship is the great romance Cordy would have had a level of communication that Angel and Buffy didn't have simply because they were adults, and not having the great romance. There are so many different forms of romantic love. To have one great romance and never be able to love again seems more like a tragedy than a gift.

        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
        It was forced and boring. The first of 2 series-killing missteps. The second being Connor. Angel/Nina was better.
        I though Cangel was going along great and building up some steam in In The Wings, and then they had Groo show up. The Groo arc just annoys me. It is so ooc for Cordy to declare she's in love with someone she just met and even worse for her to not realizing she is changing him into Angel. Also, the word kyrumption makes my ears bleed.

        They could have done a nice, snarky, truthful adult relationship with Cangel - but obviously that boat was taking on water at that stage. Speaking of sank, Angel's mania to see Cordy after he was pulled up was just odd. Then Cordy decided she had to jump Connor's bones and there is not enough brain bleach in the world for anyone to handle that.

        I like Cangel for what almost was, and what could have been.
        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

        Comment


        • #44
          It's not so much that Angel can't find someone new, it's more left Buffy because of made up reasons that she wanted this or that. Suddenly this is put on hold for Cordy. She's not going to get old, go somewhere in the day, want kids and so on and so forth? It's a strange and never-explained jump in characterization.

          I call it forced because there was little chemistry between them, yet they went there anyway, seemingly because he was a lead and she was a lead. Maybe they were trying to set up the original endgame in S4, but I don't know. It didn't work for me.

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          • #45
            I thought there were loads of chemistry between Cordy and Angel. Far more than between him and Nina. I think the fans liked Nina because it was obvious there was nothing special between them

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            • #46
              Originally posted by bespangled View Post
              Poor Angel! Stuck with one short relationship in 240 years and doomed to never have another. I mean, Buffy is gonna die someday.
              He was wirh Darla for over a century.
              And it's not like he was pining for Buffy in season 2, before they started making Cordy his new love interest. His thoughts and storyline vwere completely occupied by Darla's return.
              (A much more interesting relationship than Bangel or Cangel anyway IMO.)

              If you want an adult relationship - that was one. Cordy was in her early 20s- which is not really all that different from being 18. There is no magical moment when you becone an adult, your brain is still developing at that point, and it's not like she suddenly became so much more mature and experienced after 3 years to rival Angel's centuries (though it can be argued that Angel never developed full emotional maturity, as many people don't - but that's another matter...)

              His relationship with Cordy was planned as Bangel 2.0. That's the problem. We know they were initially planning Becoming 2.0 with switched roles for the season 4 finale. That's why they also thought they had to change Cordy and why they insisited on that whole "champions" thing: Angel had to have an Epic Romance, in the eyes of the writers. When they wrote Angel in a normal relationship - with Nina - they treated it as something that didn't really matter to him.

              I thought Cangel was going along great and building up some steam in In The Wings, and then they had Groo show up. The Groo arc just annoys me. It is so ooc for Cordy to declare she's in love with someone she just met and even worse for her to not realizing she is changing him into Angel. Also, the word kyrumption makes my ears bleed.

              They could have done a nice, snarky, truthful adult relationship with Cangel - but obviously that boat was taking on water at that stage. Speaking of sank, Angel's mania to see Cordy after he was pulled up was just odd. Then Cordy decided she had to jump Connor's bones and there is not enough brain bleach in the world for anyone to handle that.
              She didn't jump Connor's bones. It was Jasmine.
              But in a way, that was even worse - she stopped being a character (apart from You're Welcome) and became a mere vessel.
              But by that point, her personality had been changed so much that no one was able to even notice the difference between nuCordelia and Jasdelia/Jasmine.
              You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

              Comment


              • #47
                It's not so much that Angel can't find someone new, it's more left Buffy because of made up reasons that she wanted this or that. Suddenly this is put on hold for Cordy. She's not going to get old, go somewhere in the day, want kids and so on and so forth? It's a strange and never-explained jump in characterization..
                He left Buffy because he couldn't have a relationship with her. While I really believe that a moment of perfect happiness was no longer possible for Angel he was still afraid of it. And he believed that living so close and never being able to be together was too hard on both of them.

                He was wirh Darla for over a century.
                And it's not like he was pining for Buffy in season 2, before they started making Cordy his new love interest. His thoughts and storyline vwere completely occupied by Darla's return.
                (A much more interesting relationship than Bangel or Cangel anyway IMO.)
                I don't think Angel ever needed a love interest after Buffy, That's what I was responding to. I will say that Buffy was the first person Angel ever actually loved.

                I agree on Darla - though they did make a point of saying they were never in love. In fact, the more I see of Darla, the more I think that Buffy didn't create the ideal woman template for Angel. In fact, I kinda wonder whether Angel would have fallen for Buffy if she had been a tall, heavy set black woman with the same personality. Would he have felt the same way as he watched her from the car, and lurked looking in her window? Was the fact that she looked like Darla part of why he responded the way he did.

                Darla brought him into darkness - Buffy brought him into the light. There is a symmetry there, as well as a visual representation.

                If you want an adult relationship - that was one. Cordy was in her early 20s- which is not really all that different from being 18. There is no magical moment when you becone an adult, your brain is still developing at that point, and it's not like she suddenly became so much more mature and experienced after 3 years to rival Angel's centuries (though it can be argued that Angel never developed full emotional maturity, as many people don't - but that's another matter...)
                Buffy was a high school student living at home when Angel slept with her. It wasn't just her age - she was still a kid. Cordelia was an adult woman with her own life far from her home town. I know that the amount of maturing I did between being in high school and having an adult life was pretty huge.

                Not liking the whole idea that 3 years doesn't make a difference. It does when you want to have sex with a high school student, and this fallacy is used as a rationalization while grooming kids. You are so special - you are so mature - I know I shouldn't do this but I just can't keep it zipped... I try very hard to stay away from that whole mindset with Bangel and focus on the good they gave each other. So let's just say Buffy and Cordelia were at very different times of their lives. Cordelia was not a romantic ready to throw herself into the flames of love. She was more than willing to see Angel's BS for what it was and call him on it.

                His relationship with Cordy was planned as Bangel 2.0. That's the problem. We know they were initially planning Becoming 2.0 with switched roles for the season 4 finale. That's why they also thought they had to change Cordy and why they insisited on that whole "champions" thing: Angel had to have an Epic Romance, in the eyes of the writers. When they wrote Angel in a normal relationship - with Nina - they treated it as something that didn't really matter to him.
                I did watch Angel, and like I said Cangel was a nice possibility that was pretty much destroyed in season 4 when Groo came along. It could have been resurrected but they went in a different direction. Yes, it was Jasdelia with Connor but I suspect the visual had an impact.

                Nina was strictly a statement that Angel could actually have sex because the eunuch jokes were getting to be a bit much. She was also a female offeset to the degree of sexual tension between Spike and Angel.
                Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Three years is important for person's age when they are growing up - but there's no exact moment when a person becomes an "adult". Is a 21 year old an adult, while an 18 year old (Buffy's age at the end of season 3) is not? According to legislation of most countries, you're an adult at 18. According to US law, you're not an adult until you turn 21. (But it's OK to have sex with you when you're 18. While it's OK to have sex with you when you're 16 or 14 in most European countries, for instance.) Your brain is still developing in your early 20s. Do either an 18 year old or 21 year old have enough experience to compete with a 250 year old?
                  And was Cordelia calling Angel on his crap? I don't remember her doing much of that in season 3 post-Darla.
                  She was also Angel's employee, which doesn't promote equality. Did she even have friends on AtS who weren't also Angel's friends and employees? She was never all that close to Fred or Gunn, and her friendship with Wesley fell apart because of what he did to Angel (Connor). Whatever other problems I have with Bangel, Buffy had her own friends, family, calling that was not about Angel - sshe was not his sidekick and her life didn't revolve around him. If anything, it was the other way round. The more "mature" Cordy got, the more her life became all about Angel - what was the thing that made her make the decision in Birthday and what was her main role in You're Welcome?
                  You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by bespangled View Post
                    He left Buffy because he couldn't have a relationship with her. While I really believe that a moment of perfect happiness was no longer possible for Angel he was still afraid of it. And he believed that living so close and never being able to be together was too hard on both of them.
                    Yet this doesn't apply to Cordelia? He was afraid of the curse there, too, and was all the way until S5.

                    Angel's reasons for leaving are little but projections of his own desires. It has nothing to do with maturity, let's be real. He has no issues with maturity just 6 months later when Buffy's suddenly able to make decisions about her future again because they can boink.

                    I don't get why these debates always seem to skew toward Cordy vs Scoobies. She's in no way, shape or form more mature than the other guys. She's just played by an actress with years on them. Her so-called growth is little more than focusing her entire life on Angel, which is funnily enough the reason everyone decides B/A can't be together: Because she doodled on a notebook one day while bored in class. She's young, she's this, she's that, she can't see beyond him, blah-de-blah. AtS Cordy in S3 is pretty much the same way but through some strange alchemy she's more mature.
                    Last edited by HardlyThere; 01-04-18, 04:34 AM.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                      Yet this doesn't apply to Cordelia? He was afraid of the curse there, too, and was all the way until S5.

                      Angel's reasons for leaving are little but projections of his own desires. It has nothing to do with maturity, let's be real. He has no issues with maturity just 6 months later when Buffy's suddenly able to make decisions about her future again because they can boink.

                      I don't get why these debates always seem to skew toward Cordy vs Scoobies. She's in no way, shape or form more mature than the other guys. She's just played by an actress with years on them. Her so-called growth is little more than focusing her entire life on Angel, which is funnily enough the reason everyone decides B/A can't be together: Because she doodled on a notebook one day while bored in class. She's young, she's this, she's that, she can't see beyond him, blah-de-blah. AtS Cordy in S3 is pretty much the same way but through some strange alchemy she's more mature.
                      It actually applies more to Cordelia than to Buffy. Buffy had friends who weren't Angel's friends really (or were just because they were Buffy's), she had a family that mattered to her, she had a calling that wasn't all about Angel, she didn't leave school or throw out a potential career for Angel. She had a life outside of him even when she was most in love with him. (It was Angel who didn't have much of a life outside of her at the time, except when he was soulless.)
                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                        Three years is important for person's age when they are growing up - but there's no exact moment when a person becomes an "adult". Is a 21 year old an adult, while an 18 year old (Buffy's age at the end of season 3) is not? According to legislation of most countries, you're an adult at 18. According to US law, you're not an adult until you turn 21. (But it's OK to have sex with you when you're 18. While it's OK to have sex with you when you're 16 or 14 in most European countries, for instance.) Your brain is still developing in your early 20s. Do either an 18 year old or 21 year old have enough experience to compete with a 250 year old?
                        A 27 year old should not have sex with a 16 year old. The fact that he is immature is part of the problem - not the excuse. He knew it was wrong - he kept telling her it was wrong. But he also told her that he couldn't stop loving her, that she was special, that he couldn't resist. Part of loving is actually resisting. Angel literally lost his soul because he didn't resist the temptation to sleep with Buffy when he knew he shouldn't. The tragedy is that even with a soul Angel couldn't resist what the demon wanted.

                        I say this loving both Buffy and Angel, believing they loved each other, and believing they were pivotal in each others lives.

                        Frankly, the age of legal consent issue is ridiculous. Most states have a Romeo and Juliet clause that allows for partners who are within 3 years of age. An adult who is 10 years older than a teenager has way too much power and knowledge of the world. Teenage kids love mystery and melodrama - they lack the experience to see beyond this adult who is telling them how special they are. Read the paper - look at all the teachers going to jail for exactly this choice.

                        If there were to be Cangel it would have to start in season 3 - which makes Cordy 20/21. If you don't see how much a person changes in the years between between 16 and 20 then I think you may not be trying.



                        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                        Yet this doesn't apply to Cordelia? He was afraid of the curse there, too, and was all the way until S5.

                        Angel's reasons for leaving are little but projections of his own desires. It has nothing to do with maturity, let's be real. He has no issues with maturity just 6 months later when Buffy's suddenly able to make decisions about her future again because they can boink.

                        I don't get why these debates always seem to skew toward Cordy vs Scoobies. She's in no way, shape or form more mature than the other guys. She's just played by an actress with years on them. Her so-called growth is little more than focusing her entire life on Angel, which is funnily enough the reason everyone decides B/A can't be together: Because she doodled on a notebook one day while bored in class. She's young, she's this, she's that, she can't see beyond him, blah-de-blah. AtS Cordy in S3 is pretty much the same way but through some strange alchemy she's more mature.
                        I don't think breaking the curse even applied to Angel and Buffy after Angel was resouled. Bu if it applied to anyone it would only be Buffy. What they had could never be duplicated. Buffy was rain in the desert, She flat-out created Angel - turned him into someone with a mission and a purpose.

                        If Cangel happened it wouldn't be first love for either of them.

                        I see Cordy as more mature all along - in some ways. She definitely has a lot more experience with men. I also don't really see a need to tear down Cordy in order to make Buffy seem better. Buffy does just fine on her own. It's the same with Spike and Angel - and pretty much the same argument. We could actually do a thread on that. By my money, Angel does nothing in his 3 season of BTVS except be there for Buffy. It's kinda what you do when you with the lead character of the show.
                        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by bespangled View Post
                          A 27 year old should not have sex with a 16 year old. The fact that he is immature is part of the problem - not the excuse. He knew it was wrong - he kept telling her it was wrong. But he also told her that he couldn't stop loving her, that she was special, that he couldn't resist. Part of loving is actually resisting. Angel literally lost his soul because he didn't resist the temptation to sleep with Buffy when he knew he shouldn't. The tragedy is that even with a soul Angel couldn't resist what the demon wanted.

                          I say this loving both Buffy and Angel, believing they loved each other, and believing they were pivotal in each others lives.

                          Frankly, the age of legal consent issue is ridiculous. Most states have a Romeo and Juliet clause that allows for partners who are within 3 years of age. An adult who is 10 years older than a teenager has way too much power and knowledge of the world. Teenage kids love mystery and melodrama - they lack the experience to see beyond this adult who is telling them how special they are. Read the paper - look at all the teachers going to jail for exactly this choice.

                          If there were to be Cangel it would have to start in season 3 - which makes Cordy 20/21. If you don't see how much a person changes in the years between between 16 and 20 then I think you may not be trying.





                          I don't think breaking the curse even applied to Angel and Buffy after Angel was resouled. Bu if it applied to anyone it would only be Buffy. What they had could never be duplicated. Buffy was rain in the desert, She flat-out created Angel - turned him into someone with a mission and a purpose.

                          If Cangel happened it wouldn't be first love for either of them.

                          I see Cordy as more mature all along - in some ways. She definitely has a lot more experience with men. I also don't really see a need to tear down Cordy in order to make Buffy seem better. Buffy does just fine on her own. It's the same with Spike and Angel - and pretty much the same argument. We could actually do a thread on that. By my money, Angel does nothing in his 3 season of BTVS except be there for Buffy. It's kinda what you do when you with the lead character of the show.
                          In what ways was Cordy "more mature all along"? I can't think of any. Can you name something other than "experience with men"? Which I'm very unconvinced about. What do we know about her experience? She went out with some random guys in school who didn't respect her and she didn't respect them but they gave each other popularity points; there was one guy she actually liked, who was killed early; she was into a football star who didn't give her the time of day and into the brainless singer of Oz' band, tried to impress some college frat guys, and had a passionately physical (just making out though, no sex) but pretty unhealthy relationship with Xander. She thought at one point that it was incredibly romantic that (as she believed) he tried to put a love spell on her to get her back. After her breakup with Xander, she had a rather juvenile crush on Wesley (which ended with a bad kiss and both of them losing interest). That's it for high school years. None of this sounds like she had much experience in relationships, especially not mature ones.Or do you just mean sexual experience? That's questionable, since we don't even have enough info to know if she was having sex and if yes, how much experience she had. (We know she was not having sex with Xander, in spite of their physical passion.) The only times we know for sure she had sex were on AtS - that awful episode Expecting, and Groo... And it's hard to argue her and Groo had a mature relationship.

                          Seeing how Buffy was 18 in season 3 when Angel was breaking up with her because she was apparently too immature and writing "B + A forever" but also because she couldn't have children with him and they couldn't grow old together (which was both such a concern when she was 18?), and Cordelia was 21 in season 3 of AtS... Yes, I do wonder if the difference is that big as you make it out to be - especially since people grow and mature at different rates, and Buffy had saved the world several times and sacrificed herself, sent Angel to hell, lived on her own a few months making a living in LA, started a revolution there, talked a schoolmate out of suicide, all by the age of 18... and by 21, was taking care of her little sister and practically being a mother to her after their mom's death.
                          If Angel really loved Buffy so much as the shows want us to believe, it's hard to see why he wouldn"t go to Sunnydale and try to rekindle things with Buffy, if he thought he was OK to start something with Cordy? They're the same age. If he thinks he can't be with Buffy because he couldn't give her children, normal life together or true happiness - what, he didn't think Cordelia might want these things, too?
                          Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 01-04-18, 02:54 PM.
                          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                          • #53
                            I said Cordelia had more experience with men - she was more streetwise.. Never said she had great, healthy experiences.

                            Obviously we see the rest differently.
                            Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I've always felt that Cordy was more mature because she knew who she was. While the other scoobies were trying find themselves and integrate multiple versions of themselves, Cordy was confident in her self as she was. For me that's always been a sign of her maturity.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                                I've always felt that Cordy was more mature because she knew who she was. While the other scoobies were trying find themselves and integrate multiple versions of themselves, Cordy was confident in her self as she was. For me that's always been a sign of her maturity.
                                Characters that know who they are don't spend a season monkeying around with Groo before jumping dimensions because Skip Retcon told them to. It could be argued that Cordy essentially becomes Angel. Just a puppet of the PTB.

                                Cordy's big moments, that she wants to fight for good and help people, are decisions the others made way back in high school.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                                  Characters that know who they are don't spend a season monkeying around with Groo before jumping dimensions because Skip Retcon told them to. It could be argued that Cordy essentially becomes Angel. Just a puppet of the PTB.

                                  Cordy's big moments, that she wants to fight for good and help people, are decisions the others made way back in high school.
                                  Unpopular opinion, but Cordy had a lot more growth in season 2 of BtVS (think of Becoming part 2, when she felt bad about running away instead of staying and fighting to help the other Scoobies, even though she realistically had no chance against Drusilla and the other vampires) than she did on AtS. On BtVS, her wanting to help the Scoobies, even though she had no powers, was not mixed with self-importance as it was on AtS (where she was special and got to ascend).
                                  You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Just finished Waiting In The Wings, and I don't care what anyone says, Cordy and Angel would have been a fantastic couple. My heart drops when I see Groo. Poor Angel, his whole life could have been different if only . . .

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                                    • Stoney
                                      Stoney commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      I've come to appreciate them more. I prefer the friendship and wish they didn't go to the whole 'we're champions' thing, but I can see why people ship them as a couple too.

                                    • Nina
                                      Nina commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      I adore the concept of Angel and Cordy. Honestly, I think the big mistake was the plan to rehash BtVS s2 in Ats s4 and thus the need to make them starcrossed lovers/super special. As if fighting an evil Cordy wouldn't be heartbreaking enough for Angel otherwise. Hell, the messy stuff with Cordy in s4 actually saved us from a real evil Cordelia and I'm rather happy about that.

                                    • SpikeRocks
                                      SpikeRocks commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      Woulda been nice to have a Cangel relationship start and flourish for at least half a season before they threw a bomb at it....can we see just ONE healthy, solid, mature love, pleeeeeease! lol

                                  • #58
                                    I love the Cangel build-up we got, and the Cangel that could have been. I definitely ship them.

                                    There's something just....off.....when Cordy comes back from her vacation with Groo, and it's not just her new hair. This is the moment, to me, where going forward she feels like she's lost her sass and humor and some quintessential Cordy-ness. Idk what happened....maybe something behind the scenes?

                                    But BEFORE this, I ride the Cangel train hard. To me, I feel like in this chapter of Angel's life we're viewing on Ats (those 5 seasons), Cordelia is truly someone he needs. They inspire each other. They bring about such incredible growth and change in each other. I think Cordelia in his life outdoes Buffy in this regard, by far (I couldn't stand Angel under Buffy's influence, but Angel under Cordy's influence is someone I can get behind and someone I root for). Some just like Cangel as friends, and I get that, but they've always had chemistry beyond friendship as well. I think their relationship had true substance and set up a foundation where they could have truly been long-haul partners for each other. Hell, they already were that.

                                    I know there's lots of discussion over what qualifies as Angel's "moments of pure happiness"........The show is real sketchy about it, bouncing back and forth. Sometimes they reinforce it's about Angel having a happy (orgasm), like in a lot of Cordy's dialog on the subject, and Angel himself always worried about having sex, but they also go out of their way to establish that it isn't simply about just sex (Wesley discussing it with Cordy, Angel having sex with Darla, Nina and Eve fine without losing his soul, etc). Yet, sex is still always made the vehicle for Angel's pure happiness moments (btw, not an aspect of Angel that I like....like, dude, really? Though this seems quite in keeping with who he's always been if we look back at Liam), only it must be the right circumstances with the right person, etc. Passion of the Nerd argues it's the moment after Bangel sleep together when they're holding each other and drifting off to sleep, being in that calm, peaceful state with your partner, which was Angel's moment of pure happiness.......I like that. Then again, when he loses his soul the next time, it's legit when he's inside Cordy having his happy.

                                    What I'm getting at in my ramble lol, is I always thought a VERY high contender for a "moment of pure happiness" for Angel, was when he and Cordy are in bed with baby Connor between them. Angel is SO happy and content and thinking about the future and not burdened by the sins of his past.....at most he feels some anxieties of parenthood/money/providing, but still....that moment to me is the most content and bliss I've ever seen Angel have. And that's due to Connor and Cordy. His soul should have skipped right on off then IMO.....how horrible would that have been

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                                    • #59
                                      I do agree that the show establishes that it is beyond just sexual release but that has played a part the times we've seen him lose his soul. But with Buffy that was all part of feeling acceptance from the person he loved and it was intensified by all that she represented. Of course he had a lot less worries and responsibilities then too and, importantly, he didn't know about the loophole to the curse. Whether the moment was just after as they laid together or not, the factors involved in generating it for him were fewer. When he has the perfect day in S4 we see there are so many factors by then that have to be corrected for him to be happy enough in a single moment to gain that again. So whilst I can completely see the argument that being with Cordy and Connor when they are resting together could have been a perfect moment in terms of happiness I don't think it was fantastically perfect to the point where he briefly forgot worries such as the risk of losing his soul, those tracking Connor, the pressures of being a good enough father, providing for his son or not being in a romantic relationship (with Cordelia). I really think there is a good argument that Angel couldn't under normal means lose his soul any more now.

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                                      • SpikeRocks
                                        SpikeRocks commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Man, the Romani really messed up....they could have really added to his torture/torment if they'd just TOLD him he risks losing his soul by ever being happy, not to mention all-but ensured he'd never lose it and cause more destruction ever again. :P Though he probably would have attempted to embrace this escape-card early on in his soul-journey at some point....he would have never managed it though, of course.
                                        Last edited by SpikeRocks; 16-06-20, 10:50 PM.

                                    • #60
                                      Stoney:
                                      I really think there is a good argument that Angel couldn't under normal means lose his soul any more now.
                                      I agree with POTN's theory that it is the moment after they had sex that causes Angel to lose his soul. Actually, I think Buffy and Angel have both fallen asleep and it's probably a couple of hours after they had sex when he loses his soul. But I also agree that whatever happens in future to Angel he will never make him perfectly happy ever again because the risk of losing his soul must always be on his mind and prevent the required amount of happiness from occurring.

                                      I think it's no coincidence that Angel only loses his soul due to poison and a ritual and not to a true moment of happiness after the events of Surprise.

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