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Changing Perceptions with 'fly on the wall' moments

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  • Changing Perceptions with 'fly on the wall' moments

    I think if the Sunnydale group could see Cordelia in That Vision Thing they'd see her becoming truly heroic in a really selfless way that I think would possibly surprise them. How she endures the pain is also a really stark element of that, but I think the stronger displays of determination and gutsy grit are more in keeping with the Cordelia they knew. Her emotional pain however, in response to the plight of others and how she suffers for it and still wants to help despite what she's going through, might surprise them.

    Are there any specific moments or events that one or more characters weren't privy to that you think would have impacted their perceptions of events/other characters meaningfully, if they'd been able to be a fly on the wall? Or even any seasons or specific storylines that a character being part of generally would specifically impact their perceptions of others? It could be within one of the shows or across the two.

  • #2
    One thing that immediately springs to mind is that it would have impacted Buffy's view of Angel if she'd known about him sending people to spy on her (The Girl in Question).

    By the way, there is actually a fic (an ongoing WIP with weekly updates) on fanfiction.net that has the Scoobies watching AtS on TV, one episode per chapter:

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1376190...-to-redemption

    I'm sure there must be other fics like it, but for me this is the first time I've come across a fic with that premise.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/DoubleDutchess

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    • #3
      I always think if Buffy could see Spike with Dawn, her view of him might have softened sooner.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Double Dutchess View Post
        One thing that immediately springs to mind is that it would have impacted Buffy's view of Angel if she'd known about him sending people to spy on her (The Girl in Question).

        By the way, there is actually a fic (an ongoing WIP with weekly updates) on fanfiction.net that has the Scoobies watching AtS on TV, one episode per chapter:

        https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1376190...-to-redemption

        I'm sure there must be other fics like it, but for me this is the first time I've come across a fic with that premise.
        That fic sounds funny, watching the episodes as TV shows. I know there is a popular Spuffy story where the group see the S6 encounters between Buffy and Spike but the element of judgment and voyeurism in that I find off putting. In a story it would work better with a light hearted tone I think as it is potentially invasive.

        But for flash moments or involvement in stories that could impact on someone's point of view, I do think it is intriguing.

        I do wonder if anything Wes did in AtS would impact how Giles would see him. I'm not sure.

        It's an interesting suggestion about Buffy seeing Spike with Dawn Priceless . I'm not sure if it would have affected her especially because of her existing acceptance that whatever it was he felt for her could yield positive results. I really can't decide if it would concern her more than make her soften towards him.

        I think if Buffy saw Faith's breakdown in Five by Five it could have impacted how she felt towards her. I don't think it would have warmed her in her anger entirely going, but I think she might have felt more inclined to back down a touch more than she was when she first arrived.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
          I always think if Buffy could see Spike with Dawn, her view of him might have softened sooner.
          oh—

          very much yes—

          although i think such softening
          would but have intensified
          the roiling ambivalence that
          suffused Buffy's thoughts
          about, feelings for Spike in
          that period—

          her reply to Dawn in Him, her
          attempt to explain her not-love
          for Spike:

          I feel for him—


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          • Priceless
            Priceless commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes it would have complicated her feeling for sure. She took Dawn and Joyce to him, but she never really saw their interactions. I wonder if Joyce ever mentioned how great Spike was just to hang around with

        • #6
          I think it would be interesting if Giles could see the Holtz & Angel scene in Benediction. In a way it's a pity Angel needed so much time to learn that he as a soulled being shouldn't be forgiven or redeemed for soulless actions. Because it denied Giles an important moment. His actions in LMPTM show that he could have learned a lot from the Angel and Holtz encounter.

          It's a bit odd to see a major BtVS storyline move to Ats with Angel. While the Ats characters learn and gain new insights concerning this issue, the BtVS characters don't. And it's not just Angel; Faith's arc is also moved to Ats and that she is redeemed there. And you could say the same about Cordy.

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          • #7
            I think this comes to the messy sense of connection and separation though because Angel in S5 is still talking of going to hell and being damned. The demon within them stops them being without connection to the past. I think in both BtVS and AtS they see the sense of separation and I'm not sure that there is a belief you need to earn redemption in BtVS so much as make the right choices for yourself going forward as you are. Arguably Angel signing out of the potential of Shanshu should be a positive step away from feeling there will be a big moment and reward, but it still connects, in my mind, to his sense of disconnection and disillusionment with the mission. So I'm not sure he isn't always trying to affect a scale for his past.

            Totally agree about Giles seeing the scene with Holtz though, it would be an interesting one for him to have witnessed.

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            • #8
              Originally posted by Stoney View Post
              I think this comes to the messy sense of connection and separation though because Angel in S5 is still talking of going to hell and being damned. The demon within them stops them being without connection to the past. I think in both BtVS and AtS they see the sense of separation and I'm not sure that there is a belief you need to earn redemption in BtVS so much as make the right choices for yourself going forward as you are. Arguably Angel signing out of the potential of Shanshu should be a positive step away from feeling there will be a big moment and reward, but it still connects, in my mind, to his sense of disconnection and disillusionment with the mission. So I'm not sure he isn't always trying to affect a scale for his past.
              I don't think that Benediction is about seperation of the two persona.

              Angel: "I was different then."
              Holtz: "Yes. So was I. - You feel remorse. You feel remorse yet you can't express it."
              Angel: "You want me to say I'm sorry? How can I? It wouldn't mean a thing."
              Holtz: "It would mean a little. Not much, but it would be something."
              Angel: "Then I'm sorry. For whatever little it might mean. It's all I've got."
              Angel says "I", he doesn't seperate himself from Angelus. He just mentions he was different and Holtz's interpretation is that the difference lays in the ability to feel remorse. And I think we're supposed to follow that reasoning. It's not denied by Angel and it alligns with what previous seasons told us about the soulled and the soulless.

              My reading is that Angel doesn't feel remorse because Angelus being evil and bloodthirsty is not a choice, it's a law of nature. He simply can't help himself. And thus Angel can't help it. Saying sorry for something you couldn't help, is not the same as saying sorry for something bad you did while you could've done something else. He says sorry out of respect for the victim, not because he thinks he needs to be forgiven.

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              • #9
                Yes, I was meaning that he feels the connection still regardless, even if he also is able to separate himself from what was done unsouled to some degree. I don't think of them as separate beings, so I agree with you. I think I had misunderstood what you were saying before.

                I always like the scene between Angel and Faith in Enemies when he says to her that she isn't like he was, as she has a choice. That is really what creates the meaningful difference between the soulless and souled vamps and makes them different to evil humans (that aren't mentally ill) who have moral boundaries and choose to disregard them. It always leaves me feeling that truly evil humans are somewhat worse than vampires.

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                • #10
                  This question always reminds me of Dickens’ A Christmas Carol when Scrooge is ‘watching’ scenes from his life and that of his clerk and others from a different perspective. Obviously, if any of the characters had seen the show in the way the audience was experiencing it, they’d have a wildly different impression of everything and everyone.

                  I think that there are so many scenes that would have made a difference. Almost anything with Buffy and her two vampires - the rest of the cast has a very different view of Angel than the vamp Buffy sees. Same for Spike. They let their guard down around Buffy and display aspects of themselves that others rarely see.

                  If you think about it, it’s rather astonishing how little the characters realize what’s going on around them - Buffy comes back from the dead in Season Six and her friends aren’t able to understand how she’s suffering. A lot of the show revolves around the sudden reveal that a character has gotten everything all wrong. Interestingly, the older Buffy gets, the less able Giles is able to understand her at all - his sudden departure feels less like “what’s good for Buffy” than precipitated by his own fears that he can’t understand her any more. Or chooses not to understand.

                  So much of the show works on the idea that there’s a lot going on under the surface that characters repress or downplay and others are expected to ignore what’s going on. There are so many glimpses of backgrounds that overshadow the characters - Wesley, Willow, Cordelia - we get only tiny glimpses of the turbulent home life of Xander - off-screen shouting and second-hand accounts of abusive behavior. Yet everyone just laughs it off as just something you have to push through - often with disastrous results.

                  I imagine that if the characters just watched the last episode they were in, they’d be horrified at how little they knew about what was going on. Can you image Buffy’s reaction to Spike trying to bite the woman in the alley in Smashed?

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                  • #11
                    Originally posted by American Aurora View Post
                    This question always reminds me of Dickens’ A Christmas Carol when Scrooge is ‘watching’ scenes from his life and that of his clerk and others from a different perspective. Obviously, if any of the characters had seen the show in the way the audience was experiencing it, they’d have a wildly different impression of everything and everyone.
                    Yes, totally agreed. And because we all are different around different people the same would be true of our own friends and family. If they could see everything we say/do around others they would get to know us better. But the dissonance against the person they think they know might be hard to see and accept that all elements, all faces, can be genuine.

                    I think that there are so many scenes that would have made a difference. Almost anything with Buffy and her two vampires - the rest of the cast has a very different view of Angel than the vamp Buffy sees. Same for Spike. They let their guard down around Buffy and display aspects of themselves that others rarely see.
                    That is a good point. There are some characters that fiercely put up barriers like Spike or ones who stay on the outskirts because of the barriers they feel to integrating like Angel (which of course creates a barrier of their own making too), which results in a very reduced view of them for most others. Both interact more genuinely with Buffy and she gets to know them far more deeply.

                    If you think about it, it’s rather astonishing how little the characters realize what’s going on around them - Buffy comes back from the dead in Season Six and her friends aren’t able to understand how she’s suffering. A lot of the show revolves around the sudden reveal that a character has gotten everything all wrong. Interestingly, the older Buffy gets, the less able Giles is able to understand her at all - his sudden departure feels less like “what’s good for Buffy” than precipitated by his own fears that he can’t understand her any more. Or chooses not to understand.
                    I tend to see Giles' exit in S6 as being greatly about fleeing from his own fears of losing Buffy (seen in Nightmares and then fully realised in The Gift) a second time. Layering in a distancing of understanding too makes it even easier to see why he may be struggling to stay.

                    So much of the show works on the idea that there’s a lot going on under the surface that characters repress or downplay and others are expected to ignore what’s going on. There are so many glimpses of backgrounds that overshadow the characters - Wesley, Willow, Cordelia - we get only tiny glimpses of the turbulent home life of Xander - off-screen shouting and second-hand accounts of abusive behavior. Yet everyone just laughs it off as just something you have to push through - often with disastrous results.

                    I imagine that if the characters just watched the last episode they were in, they’d be horrified at how little they knew about what was going on. Can you image Buffy’s reaction to Spike trying to bite the woman in the alley in Smashed?
                    I honestly think she'd be angry and then quickly move to not being surprised (similar to her reaction in As You Were), seeing it as the predictable response she should have considered he'd do.

                    It's an interesting idea though, that even fully seeing everything around any single episode just passed would be an eye opener. Possibly for an individual into themselves and their own dynamics as well as that of others.

                    I'd love the group to see Xander's Zeppo story. Especially with that final scene and how it impacted how he felt about himself.

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