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Reformed Villains on Buffy and Angel

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  • Reformed Villains on Buffy and Angel

    We’ve seen how certain villains like Spike and antagonists like Wesley eventually became main characters on Buffy and Angel. Because of their origins, their character arcs were given a tremendous amount of complexity and shading by necessity.

    Which baddies - both super villains and minor inconveniences - would you like to have seen become main characters on either show?

    I would have loved to see Jonathan join the Scooby Gang (or as Whedon writes in his shooting script, 'Scoobie', to differentiate between BtVS and the original cartoon, I guess.)

    By the time Jonathan dies, he's halfway there already.
    Last edited by American Aurora; 03-06-21, 06:06 AM.

  • #2
    Oh, I love this question. Probably not so surprising considering Spike and Wesley are two of my absolute favourite characters.

    Speaking of favourites, although we already had some of this with Connor, I would have loved to see more of his character journey. He came from such a traumatic start and struggled so much with integrating and working past the poisoning Holtz had done to his understanding of the world. The mind-wipe and false memories are definitely a questionable choice to have made but I can see how the potential integration then of his real past with his imagined one could give him a sense of balance and security he wasn't able to manage as broken as he had been. Following more of his ongoing story and how some things would be difficult, exploring how he fares in his ongoing relationships would have been gold to me. I'd have to reread his comic appearances. I do remember enjoying seeing him working with Spike in AtF, but cropping up just briefly like the inclusion in the Quor'toth trip in Angel & Faith was too brief. I'd have just loved to have seen a lot of more of him and had his journey delved into more.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by American Aurora View Post
      We’ve seen how certain villains like Spike and antagonists like Wesley eventually became main characters on Buffy and Angel. Because of their origins, their character arcs were given a tremendous amount of complexity and shading by necessity.

      Which baddies - both super villains and minor inconveniences - would you like to have seen become main characters on either show?

      I would have loved to see Jonathan join the Scooby Gang (or as Whedon writes in his shooting script, 'Scoobie', to differentiate between BtVS and the original cartoon, I guess.)

      By the time Jonathan dies, he's halfway there already.
      I think the Scoobs were already getting a bit unwieldy with Anya and Tara. I would have much preferred Jonathan to Andrew in season 7, a redemption arc, but that would mean he'd have to kill Andrew and I just can' see that happening. Also, I don't think he would bring as much levity, and his magic use would have conflicted with Willow's arc.

      Most of the characters I'd like to see would mean altering plot lines that I really like, I wish Cassie had been a potential. I really like the actress, and it's rare for a MOTW actress to even stick in my mind. I would have loved to have Lilah alive, and in season 5 of Angel - still a Wesley/Lilah shipper. I would also have loved to see Connor have a freakin arc of any sort. He was a sullen angry teen from when he arrived to when he died. Basically his only purpose was to motivate Angel to take action, all sorts of actions.
      Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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      • American Aurora
        American Aurora commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes, Cassie would have been a great potential. I think Connor was badly underused - agreed that he was primarily used as a foil to Angel rather than a character in his own right.

    • #4
      briefly, athwart...*

      S6,

      in the wake of Giles' irremissible abandonment....

      Enter

      Doc...

      Flashbacks:

      Doc—having thrown Spike over, cut Dawn, having
      slithered down the tower—then turns from a safe
      distance back to view both the greater and the more
      intimate devastations flowing from his knife-work,
      suffers the utterly inexplicable, utterly unpredictable:

      As he gleefully absorbs Buffy's leap from the Tower, her
      light-sharded death-dive,** some strangely driven
      splinter-spirit gleams off Buffy, scorches into Doc...

      Spasms course across his infinitely expressive face,
      descend. convulsively, through his limbs, send his tails
      into an all-but overwhelming writhing:

      Doc verges upon, but does not quite,, lose balance, control...

      Grace regained, he sniffs, shakes himself, slyly smiles:

      Strange... I hadn't smelt a soul on me, but...

      New scene:

      Doc lurking during Tabula Rasa, Smashed, Wrecked,
      and Gone

      His mien alternately concerned, disapproving, puzzled,
      suddenly stuck by thought's illumination:

      New scene:

      He waltzes into the magic box, blithely charming his way
      past Dawn's justified hostility (Hey kid? Want to see a trick?),
      quickly puts the kibosh on Buffy's plans for DMP—he has a
      far more clever idea—and Willow's delusive belief in her
      addiction, installs himself as the new, admittedly at times
      perverse, Watcher...

      Admittedly, he can do little to stop Buffy's doings with Spike
      or Xander's failures-to-do with Anya—as part serpent, his
      sense of Eros remains sketchy, involves knowing guys who
      know guys in China—but he does fall, at times, into brilliant,
      Fosse-directed musical numbers that give most painful turns
      of illumination....

      All while maintaining impeccable self-irony toward Life,
      our Big Bad—***



      While he thus cannot stop the befalling of the season's most
      barely bearable eruptions, he does, as the new MC, frame them
      with far finer exposition, care, and song....


      Im cabaret—!
      Au cabaret—!
      To cabaret—!



      *Inspired, of course, by my bottomless love for Joel Grey, Cabaret,
      Bob Fosse....

      **Not to be confused with—although Buffy's relationship with
      Spike shows it to be imbricated with—the Death Drive....

      ***Or, as Sally Bowles/Liza Minnelli sings in the final song:

      Life is a cabaret, old chum,
      It's only a cabaret—



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      • Stoney
        Stoney commented
        Editing a comment
        Beautifully painted.

      • American Aurora
        American Aurora commented
        Editing a comment
        Love this!

    • #5
      I have never been as fond of Ethan Rayne as a lot of fans tend to be, but I do think there is a lot of potential there. If he had become a more regular character and we'd learned more about him as an individual, I think they could have taken him down the road of becoming reformed and developing him more. As much of a fan of chaos as he was, he also provided information along the way too that benefitted the gang. Sure, you could argue that it was to better wear the disguise of a harmless old friend, but it could have paved into him being swayed towards making choices for differing reasons.

      I was always fond of Lyndsey in AtS too. I think his ping ponging morality could have been picked back up again. It would have to be a pretty big catalyst to tear down his jealousy and destructive sense of bitterness. Which just seems to give it more potential. It could have also been interesting against Angel's disbelief around him and whether he'd see a difference or be surprised by him.

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      • #6
        Another possible ally is Hallie/Cecily who presented herself as a vengeance demon for children in the sixth season. Unlike Anya, she retained her powers and could have helped the Scoobies fight the first in season seven. She could have been a mentor to the potentials as most of them had not reached their 18th birthday.

        There could also have been a great subplot of Hallie and Spike. It seems Hallie did not know what became of William when she saw him at the party - lots of possibilities.

        Comment


        • American Aurora
          American Aurora commented
          Editing a comment
          If she'd stayed with the show, maybe Spallie could have become a thing!

      • #7
        Another couple of AtS villains just occurred to me. I have to admit I'm only picking these two out because I really enjoyed the characters and would have loved to see more of them. It isn't that, as written, I felt they had great potential for redemption storylines, but anything is possible. Firstly, Skip who was originally the guard for Billy and then later was working for Jasmine in falsely guiding Cordelia and the fake swami in Guise will be Guise. As I remember they both died, but if their paths had gone in different directions they were really enjoyable characters to watch and it would have been interesting to see more of them. Redemption storylines are just a possible alternate option.

        They'd both probably be better as reoccurring characters rather than main cast full on redemption arcs though. Maybe.

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        • #8
          I am all in for a redemption arc for Ethan Rayne. I love his sarcasm and his spirit and I would love to see Giles and his banter.

          flow


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