Would Spike have killed Dru?

[flow]

In season 5, episode Crush, Spike tells Buffy:

SPIKE: (to Buffy) You still don't believe. Still don't think I mean it. You want proof, huh? How's this?

He stalks over to the Buffy Shrine, grabs a stake off the table, turns and puts the stake against Dru's chest. He looks over at Buffy.

SPIKE: I'm gonna kill Drusilla for you.

and:

SPIKE: Here's why. (walks toward Buffy) If you don't admit ... that there's something there ... some tiny feeling for me ... then I'll untie Dru, let her kill you instead.
DRUSILLA: (nodding quickly) Yes, please. I like that game much more.
SPIKE: Just ... give me something ... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ... tell me ... maybe, someday, there's a chance.

But what if, Buffy had told him, that there was a barest smidgen - no matter if she meant it or not -, what would Spike have done? Would he really have killed Drusilla? Would he even have believed Buffy - again, no matter if she meant it or not - ? Would residual feelings for Drusilla have prevented him from dusting her? Or would he have staked her happily?

The question came to my mind because of a fanfic, I was reading. A fanfic, in which Buffy tells Spike, he would never have killed Drusilla. I don`t know about that. I haven`t made my mind up yet, but I would like to hear, what you think.

flow

[Priceless]

At that moment, in Crush, I don't think Spike would have killed Dru. For a start she was tied up, and I don't think Spike would have killed her like that. He had loved her, and probably always will, she was an integral part of his life for a hundred plus years and I don't think Spike would have felt it fair to stake her in that way.

I also think Dru would have spoken up, said sweet words, make Spike remember why he 'd loved her for so long. At the very least I think Dru's words would have helped persuade him to release her and give her a sporting chance. Deep down, even if they fought, I suspect Spike would be hoping she'd escape.

I also don't think he'd stake Dru because he wouldn't really believe Buffy if she said that she possible could feel something for him. He'd realise she was only saying it so he'd release her. Spike isn't stupid, he knows Buffy doesn't really have feelings for him, or none she'll admit to. If she's tried to con him, I think he'd know it and actually think less of her for it.

[Double Dutchess]

I think Spike was just "talking big", making a grand gesture without ever expecting Buffy to accept it. He had probably managed to convince himself that he would do it, but I agree he probably wouldn't have gone through with it when push came to shove.

[MikeB]

All caught up

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



* Spike still loves Drusilla even after BtVS S8 in something that Jane Espenson wrote. In "Crush" (B 5.14), Spike had no way of having an eternal relationship with Buffy. He couldn't sire her and he wouldn't likely go to a heavenly dimension with her.


* Angel in BtVS S1 clearly no longer loved Darla and Angel/Darla in AtS is because of Jasmine. Spike in "Crush" (B 5.14) dumps Harmony for Drusilla, almost certainly had sex with Drusilla in "Crush", went dancing in public with Dru in "Crush", and is simply horrified by the sight of Drusilla's killing and feeding.

But Spike in BtVS S7, AtS S5, the IDW Spike miniseries (if canon), BtVS S8, and BtVS S9 still loves Dru.


* Unless Spike was certain that Buffy/Spike would be an eternal relationship, I consider Spike would never kill Drusilla instead of Buffy. And Buffy is probably the only being besides himself that he'd consider killing instead of Drusilla.

[Stoney]

I'm not sure tbh. I agree that he was making a big gesture, it was melodramatic in the way that he can be over romantic gestures. So my gut feeling is that he wouldn't have. But the episode clearly, meaningfully showed that Spike did choose to not accept Dru's offer and was turning away from her and the life that she had brought him into. He chose to not return to her, what she offered him this time, and that is the last canon exchange that they have. I think they don't use Dru again in his story because she isn't part of Spike's future any longer, not in the continuation of his story after Crush. Dru continues to have relevancy for Angel as he's always looking backwards and focussed on redemption and she represents a good deal of his crimes. But Spike's story is about moving on and changing his path, so he leaves her behind at that point. Yes she still has relevance in understanding his history and seeing flashbacks, but not in who he wants to be any longer. And that's even before he is souled. So all of this also makes me feel that it isn't impossible that if he thought it mattered and truly thought it would make a difference that he would have done it. If his hand had been forced somehow and it was a literal choice between staking Dru and Buffy dying I think he would have done it. But in the episode context alone I think it far more likely that he would have backed down and wanted the meaning of the gesture to be enough. I think that he truly felt that it was something that he could do though and that in itself is significant. It is just that he wanted that significance to be enough.

I think that Spike still would have feelings for Dru even now, but I think that they would be very mixed and complex. I'm not at all convinced that he would still feel love towards her so much as the shadow of what it was that he used to feel for her and what they had. He makes it clear that his perception of what love is has shifted once souled, that he views his past actions and how he loved as a weak imitation of what he feels after becoming souled and his notions of what a relationship should be change somewhat too. Intimacy comes to mean something totally different to him. Plus he also clearly describes himself as a victim in Damage and I think how he looks back on his siring/history and Dru will have changed. But this distancing, whilst not as complete and layered as it will have become, was starting in S5 and Crush is greatly about emphasising that (at the same time as underlining that there are still limitations and worrying behaviour that he exhibits as he lacks the morality).

Did I answer the question? I so often get to the end of my post in these situations and wonder whether I ever actually answered the question.

[ghoststar]

I think it depends. If Buffy gave him an affirmative answer that he truly believed, then yes, I think he’d have done it. And it isn’t because Dru means nothing to him; it’s because she means less than Buffy, yet is still the only sacrifice worthy of a new relationship. Recall that in “Lover’s Walk” Spike would have considered death at Dru’s hands a more respectful gesture than her moving on without him. Does the idea that the domestic-abuse victim would want to be killed hit a lot of hot buttons, even more so today than when the episode aired? Sure (although it was already dark comedy, it just wasn’t about a “trending” issue). Does it still make sense as Spike’s perspective? Again, I’m going with yes.

[MikeB]

All caught up

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.





Stoney

["Crush" (B 5.14)] is the last canon exchange that they have.

So, you completely ignore IDW's Spike comics?

Joss Whedon is relatively more involved in After the Fall and the IDW Spike miniseries than he was in Season 10 and after.

I think they don't use Dru again in [Spike's] story because she isn't part of Spike's future any longer, not in the continuation of his story after Crush.

If ignoring IDW's Spike comics, Spike and Dru don't meet in person after "Crush" (B 5.14); nevertheless, it's directly opposed to canon to say "[the writers] don't Dru again in [Spike's [/i] story" "after ["Crush" (B 5.14)].

And, hey,

Spoiler:

Buffy/Spike aren't together at the end of Season 12 and Drusilla is still alive.

* Angel has never tried to redeem Drusilla. In fact, in Season 9 he worked actively against that. If IDW's Spike is canon, Spike at least made some effort to ?make Dru better'.


* Drusilla isn't more relevant to Angel than she's to Spike, it's simply that she's more used to boost the viewership of Angel properties.


* Outside of wanting to diminish Spike/Dru in your regard or whatever, I'm not sure why anyone would conclude that Spike no longer loves Dru. Even Jane Espenson in a post-Season 8 comic has Spike's being fond of Dru.

Spike's preferring Buffy to Dru and Spike's not wanting to have sex with an evil Drusilla doesn't mean that Spike wouldn't be with Dru again if she simply weren't ?evil'.

One of the biggest ?mistakes' in Season 9 is not having Spike meet Sane Drusilla. Unlike Buffy regarding ?Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike', Spike's never truly made a choice between Drusilla and Buffy. I'd be like Uncursed Angel showed up in "Chosen" (B 7.22) and Buffy chose Spike over Uncursed Angel. Duh.

If his hand had been forced somehow and it was a literal choice between staking Dru and Buffy dying I think he would have done it.

In "Crush" (B 5.14)? Preposterous. At soonest, maybe sometime after "Selfless" (B 7.05). Spike was ?daydreaming' about Spike/Dru while talking to First Buffy.


* Regarding "Crush" (B 5.14): Spike knows Drusilla has dagger nails. He tied Dru to a pole and he chained Buffy to the cave. Unconsciously or not, he allowed Dru a much easier escape.


* It's canon that Spike still has feelings for Dru even now. It's effectively canon that Spike still loves Dru.

I'm not at all convinced that he would still feel love towards her so much as the shadow of what it was that he used to feel for her and what they had.

Spike's loving Dru a fraction of what he used to love her arguably is more love than he had for Buffy.

Spike/Dru were together for over 118 years, 100 years without Angel, and they still love each other.

Spike left Buffy multiple times.

Spike preferred the sex with Buffy, but he chose Buffy over Dru because he couldn't stand the sight of Drusilla's feeding.

I maintain post-Season 9 cannot be canon. Spike's never even danced with Buffy. Have they ever gone on a real date? Even in Season 10,

Spoiler:

they weren't even living together.

[Spike] makes it clear that his perception of what love is has shifted once souled, that he views his past actions and how he loved as a weak imitation of what he feels after becoming souled and his notions of what a relationship should be change somewhat too.

Spike tried to keep his re-ensoulment a secret from Buffy, wanted the soul out, then tried to keep Buffy/Spike Platonic, then is somewhat ?forced' into making Buffy/Spike physical again, then dies instead of remaining with Buffy. Then is away from Buffy for years.

And Spike accepted First Buffy but he didn't accept First Drusilla. That's very telling. Spike could have a "Harmony is Buffy" thing. He cannot accept a ?faux Drusilla'-something from Spike & Dru : "Paint the Town Red".

Intimacy comes to mean something totally different to him.

Spike got his soul back largely because he wanted to be literal soulmates with Buffy. He views that as superior to being demon-spirit-mates with Dru. The night in "Touched" (B 7.20) convinced him that Buffy possibly wanted to be soulmates with Spike, but then "End of Days" (B 7.21) and "Chosen" (B 7.22) happens and Spike rejects Buffy and doesn't go back to her for years.

Plus he also clearly describes himself as a victim in Damage and I think how he looks back on his siring/history and Dru will have changed.

Spike felt bad in "Damage" (A 5.11) regarding his siring, but not after.



ghoststar

* Spike wouldn't dust Drusilla in "Crush" (B 5.14) even if Buffy told him Buffy wanted to marry him. Even in "Something Blue" (B 4.09), there is zero notion that Drusilla needed to die to try to affirm Buffy/Spike.


* "Lovers Walk" (B 3.08) is complicated by the fact that Drusilla ?cheats' on Spike and then breaks up with Spike because of Spike's feelings for Buffy. And he was still melancholy.

[Stoney]

So, you completely ignore IDW’s Spike comics?

No I don't ignore it completely. The bug ship introduction was what Joss requested, but the plotting of the Spike 8 is Lynch's story. Joss' name isn't on it, he didn't have a hand in plotting out the overall/main story I don't believe, so I tend to think of it as an example of the kind of thing Spike might have been up to in the time between AtF and S8 generally, working with his own group. I don't see the Dru storyline in it as canon though no, and I think the representation of Spike unsouled and the soul swapping aspects of it are weak and don't work well against canon before or after. But I don't ignore them completely and have copies because the bugship was introduced in it before it was brought into the confirmed canon.

Joss Whedon is relatively more involved in After the Fall and the IDW Spike miniseries than he was in Season 10 and after.

I don't agree. Joss met with Lynch about AtF and then Lynch expanded on what they discussed and changed some things. After #17 (if I recall correctly), Joss wasn't involved in the continuing stories at all. Although Joss didn't write much in the DH comics post S8 he was involved in the writers' summit for each and every season when they planned the season's/character directions. Gage and Allie also referred to running specific changes/aspects past Joss during the season at points too. So although he didn't get involved in the writing much Joss was involved in choosing/plotting direction, approving the overall story and then involved in specific decisions during as needed for all of the comic seasons.

If ignoring IDW’s Spike comics, Spike and Dru don’t meet in person after “Crush” (B 5.14); nevertheless, it’s directly opposed to canon to say “[the writers] don’t Dru again in [Spike’s [/i] story” “after [“Crush” (B 5.14)].

And, hey,

Spoiler:

Buffy/Spike aren’t together at the end of Season 12 and Drusilla is still alive.

I specifically said that Dru continues to be relevant to Spike's story in understanding his history/past, but I don't agree that Dru continues to be relevant to him going forward in a way that she is an ongoing consideration within his future (other than to understand his past and how he responds to that within the context of moving on from it). This is Spike's overall story direction, moving away from what he had been, dark to light etc.

I would really like to have seen how Spike and Dru would have interacted once he was souled, in confirmed canon, but we sadly didn't get that. We saw that he felt very differently about his siring once souled as he saw himself as a victim, but I'm certain his feelings towards Dru would be complex. As much as...

Spoiler:

Spike and Buffy aren't together still in a romance at the end of S12, they are both still very committed to sharing their lives together and wanting to stay around each other. In my opinion they were clearly showing indications that they may reconcile, but that is subjective interpretation. That Dru is still alive is irrelevant. Buffy and Spike have currently broken up and Spike is.... still staying around Buffy and the scoobies, which just really underlines that they are his current vision of his future and he has never shown any interest post Crush in going to find Dru again. Not even after Buffy's death in S6 or since he has been souled.

I'm really never sure people expect spoilers around discussion of the comics anymore. Anyway...

* Drusilla isn’t more relevant to Angel than she’s to Spike, it’s simply that she’s more used to boost the viewership of Angel properties.

That's an interesting perspective. I don't agree that she isn't more relevant to Angel because that is what we are actually shown, that she will be brought into his story time and again as a reference to his past and how he is still currently dealing with it. For Spike it just isn't the same. Crush shows him turning down Dru and she isn't brought back into his story other than in seeing/considering how he reviews his past. The past that he chose to leave and steadily move on from ever since S5.

* Outside of wanting to diminish Spike/Dru in your regard or whatever, I’m not sure why anyone would conclude that Spike no longer loves Dru. Even Jane Espenson in a post-Season 8 comic has Spike’s being fond of Dru.

Spike’s preferring Buffy to Dru and Spike’s not wanting to have sex with an evil Drusilla doesn’t mean that Spike wouldn’t be with Dru again if she simply weren’t ‘evil’.

I find Dru an interesting character and I have said really clearly that I think Spike would still have feelings for Dru but that it would be complex because he doesn't view things the same way as he did when he was unsouled. Not just being sired, but love and relationships. I don't think that is incompatible with Jane's pov that you've mentioned.

It is difficult to know how Spike would respond to Dru if she wasn't evil because of the mix of feelings he obviously has about being a vampire. If Dru were souled I think there is the potential that they could form a relationship again, but her just being sane wouldn't be sufficient in my opinion because the 'lack' that goes with being unsouled would still be in place. If she was souled I'm still not sure if he would consider it. But unsouled, even if she wasn't killing, her morality is compromised and Spike's own story is about moving beyond that so him not caring and being in a relationship regardless of that seems highly unlikely.

One of the biggest ‘mistakes’ in Season 9 is not having Spike meet Sane Drusilla. Unlike Buffy regarding ‘Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike’, Spike’s never truly made a choice between Drusilla and Buffy. I’d be like Uncursed Angel showed up in “Chosen” (B 7.22) and Buffy chose Spike over Uncursed Angel. Duh.

Sane Drusilla isn't the same as being souled. I don't think her sanity is the issue and yes, Spike had already chosen Buffy over Dru. Dru was offering him the option of being together again in Crush and he didn't want it more than the potential of what he could have with Buffy. And that was when he was unsouled and looked more favourably on being a vampire and having been sired and the depth of what he felt then.

In “Crush” (B 5.14)? Preposterous. At soonest, maybe sometime after “Selfless” (B 7.05). Spike was ‘daydreaming’ about Spike/Dru while talking to First Buffy.

Hardly preposterous when him offering to do so is the prompt for the discussion.

When Dru appears in Lessons and Bring on the Night it is really The First trying to manipulate Spike. Lessons shows her as one of the many faces The First can adopt and morph into as it plagues/torments Spike. Then in Bring on the Night it is the same trick, which is why the transcript describes it as Drusilla/First throughout. Spike even says it isn't Dru and The First agrees. Spike knows that he isn't talking to Dru and that is outlined right at the start for the viewers. And as he is talking to Drusilla/First throughout it is to reject the offer of being evil again, which is what she represents for him, because he has belief that he can be more now, because of Buffy.

SPIKE: (scoffs) Give it up. (Drusilla/First rolls her eyes and turns away) Whatever you are, whatever you get away with, I'm out. You can't pull this puppet's strings anymore.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: (snaps back to face Spike) And what makes you think you have a choice? What makes you think you will ever be any good at all in this world?

SPIKE: She does. Because she believes in me.

And that's the last we see of Drusilla/First in that episode. As much as you see my thoughts as 'looking to diminish' Spike and Dru, I tend to find your reading tries to raise them beyond what we are shown they become because of what they had been/you feel they were. I just don't think we will ever see eye to eye when it comes to their relationship.

* Regarding “Crush” (B 5.14): Spike knows Drusilla has dagger nails. He tied Dru to a pole and he chained Buffy to the cave. Unconsciously or not, he allowed Dru a much easier escape.

Well the threat he likely faces from the two is reflected with how they are restrained imo. Plus he perhaps wants the drama of releasing Buffy from her bonds, representative of her denial of what is between them maybe. When he does release Buffy and stands beside her against Dru, Dru herself realises the significance of his rejection, that he has made a choice between them. She seems to see it as a line being drawn on their relationship and that Spike is walking a very different path now in what she says as she leaves, "Poor Spike... (shot of Spike and Buffy staring at her) so lost. (tearfully) Even I can't help you now." And Spike makes no move to follow her but keeps trying to persuade Buffy because he has chosen between them.

* It’s canon that Spike still has feelings for Dru even now. It’s effectively canon that Spike still loves Dru.

That just isn't true. I agree that he will still have feelings for her, but they are complicated once he is souled and we don't have any confirmed canon of how he would react, just him describing himself as a victim. His pov has clearly changed and it just adds in layers.

Spike’s loving Dru a fraction of what he used to love her arguably is more love than he had for Buffy.

Spike/Dru were together for over 118 years, 100 years without Angel, and they still love each other.

Spike left Buffy multiple times.

Spike preferred the sex with Buffy, but he chose Buffy over Dru because he couldn’t stand the sight of Drusilla’s feeding.

I maintain post-Season 9 cannot be canon. Spike’s never even danced with Buffy. Have they ever gone on a real date? Even in Season 10,

Spoiler:

they weren’t even living together.

Spike tried to keep his re-ensoulment a secret from Buffy, wanted the soul out, then tried to keep Buffy/Spike Platonic, then is somewhat ‘forced’ into making Buffy/Spike physical again, then dies instead of remaining with Buffy. Then is away from Buffy for years.

We do see them out on a date Harmony interrupts where I think it's said (and mocked) that they do have 'date nights'. But generally they have very integrated lives S10-12. They live together for the time when they are in the camp in S11 and otherwise clearly stay over at each other's, live close by and work together.

Ultimately Spike ends up choosing to live his souled life with Buffy whether in a relationship or not. He never goes after Dru to try and help her, soul her or have a relationship with her. He describes the love that he felt for Buffy pre-soul as a selfish bastardisation of love, so I hardly think that he would raise his past unsouled feelings for Dru above his love for Buffy. Unsouled he chose Buffy, and then post soul his concepts of love and understanding of relationships have vastly changed and he considers them deeper, that what he felt before doesn't compare.

I don't think the later seasons make as much sense if Spike and Buffy slept together in S7 and although it was left open for interpretation at the time, acknowledged in the S7 commentary with Joss, he also makes it clear in the same commentary that he thinks they weren't ready to be physical again. With how the relationship develops in S10 and with the further addressing of the AR/their history I really do think the S7 interpretation of them having had sex back then is made hard to support any longer. It is hardly surprising it has been written that way in the ongoing story when Joss thought they wouldn't have slept together at the time. Either way, Spike certainly wasn't ever shown as being forced, even if you do choose despite the later developments to still believe they did.

Yes Spike tries to hide he is souled at first but I can see this work if he wants to prove himself in action or because he doesn't know how to raise it. He is clearly struggling with his past with Buffy and his history as a vampire on top of being tormented by The First in the basement. How he is responding at first has so many influencing factors. And yes, he does stay away from Buffy for years after Chosen, but his wish to find his path and a sense of self confidence and surety of what he wants to do, who he wants to be, isn't hard to see and follows on from what we saw of his uncertainty in S7 and AtS 5. Once he does return to Buffy in S8 he doesn't leave for long after that. The biggest other break in S9 actually leads him to realising that he wants to belong and stop wandering and whether they are in a relationship or not he would rather live his life around those he loves and then he returns. After that he integrates with the scoobies more than he ever has before and it is made clear it is where he wants to remain, even if they are only friends.

And Spike accepted First Buffy but he didn’t accept First Drusilla. That’s very telling. Spike could have a “Harmony is Buffy” thing. He cannot accept a ‘faux Drusilla’—something from Spike & Dru : “Paint the Town Red”.

That's seems a very bias interpretation looking for significance for your preference to me. Spike tries to use substitutes for Buffy for sure, Harmony/the bot, but this just shows his lack of belief that he will ever have a chance with the real Buffy along with his desperate desire/wish to be with her.

As for the representations given by The First, I can easily offer that Spike sees Buffy as his current focus and the centre of his world so her being there is both something he desires and believes more likely. Whereas he feels distanced from Dru, she is very much the past for him. Her very presence is odd/wrong to him. As he doesn't long for her to be there or expect her, he's more inclined both logically and emotionally to discredit it.

Spike got his soul back largely because he wanted to be literal soulmates with Buffy. He views that as superior to being demon-spirit-mates with Dru. The night in “Touched” (B 7.20) convinced him that Buffy possibly wanted to be soulmates with Spike, but then “End of Days” (B 7.21) and “Chosen” (B 7.22) happens and Spike rejects Buffy and doesn’t go back to her for years.

Spike's response to the ILY I don't see as a rejection of Buffy but is a response very much affected by the context of the moment, as well as his insecurities and worries about himself and their relationship. Some of that comes from the uncertainty Buffy has about her feelings, but a great deal comes from his own uncertainties about his worth and who he is now too. Their relationship is really complex and layered with a varied and problematic history and it takes time for Spike to feel able to return to being around Buffy. But it is clear before, and when he eventually does, that it is where he truly wants to be.

Spike felt bad in “Damage” (A 5.11) regarding his siring, but not after.

Spike is shown repeatedly to have issues about being a monster after having described himself as having been a victim.

I would suggest to you that a lot of what you find incompatible and problematic in the later comic seasons is more about how where it went, what was more openly/outwardly stated and explored, didn't fit against your previous character and relationship interpretations. That doesn't mean they are wrong or incompatible to canon as they go on, just that perhaps there is a need to reassess the interpretation that came before. Personally I can see strong throughlines from the show to the end of the comics seasons. But some of that has come from the willingness to reconsider and adjust my understanding of the characters and verse.

We have been here before many times. We really just view these relationships/characters in vastly different ways. Going from that past experience, I'm going to jump straight to agreeing to disagree at this point.

[Double Dutchess]

Joss Whedon is relatively more involved in After the Fall and the IDW Spike miniseries than he was in Season 10 and after.

I don't agree. Joss met with Lynch about AtF and then Lynch expanded on what they discussed and changed some things. After #17 (if I recall correctly), Joss wasn't involved in the continuing stories at all. Although Joss didn't write much in the DH comics post S8 he was involved in the writers' summit for each and every season when they planned the season's/character directions.

I wouldn't say that Joss Whedon was more involved in AtF than in S10 and after, but to me they seem pretty much on an equal level, as in both cases he was involved in outlining the general plot. I agree that apart from introducing the bug ship he had nothing to do with the plot of the Spike series, and so the part involving Drusilla would probably not count as canon in that sense. (Just for the record; as you know I personally don't care much about what's canon or not.)

[Stoney]

I wouldn't say that Joss Whedon was more involved in AtF than in S10 and after, but to me they seem pretty much on an equal level, as in both cases he was involved in outlining the general plot. I agree that apart from introducing the bug ship he had nothing to do with the plot of the Spike series, and so the part involving Drusilla would probably not count as canon in that sense. (Just for the record; as you know I personally don't care much about what's canon or not.)

The only main difference I think is that DH would still defer to Joss for his opinion and final decisions on anything that came up in the seasons. Whereas, as I understand it, there were one or two things that Joss didn't want to happen that Lynch did anyway in AtF and changes such as the expansion from 12 to 17 issues that happened without his approval and despite his preferences. But yes, otherwise I'd agree that the initial AtF story and the DH seasons worked in generally the same way, with Joss contributing his thoughts on the overall direction and plotting.

Yeah, I know canon isn't your thing. I care because I want to know what the official story is. To know what is included that I'll accept to build up my understanding of the characters. I don't want to subjectively cherry pick but incorporate all that is part of the intended whole into my perspective. Coming to fandom late there was a lot to catch up on. Having a way to draw lines, to decide what to get and what to ignore was a practical need (and financial necessity!). Using the official view of 'what counted' seemed an obvious way.

[Double Dutchess]

Yeah, I know canon isn't your thing. I care because I want to know what the official story is. To know what is included that I'll accept to build up my understanding of the characters. I don't want to subjectively cherry pick but incorporate all that is part of the intended whole into my perspective. Coming to fandom late there was a lot to catch up on. Having a way to draw lines, to decide what to get and what to ignore was a practical need (and financial necessity!). Using the official view of 'what counted' seemed an obvious way.

I have to qualify that and say it isn't my thing when it comes to the comics! To me none of them really "count" as part of the official story at the same level as the TV shows, regardless of Joss Whedon's level of involvement. (But I'm happier to accept some of them as part of my personal canon than others; again regardless of Whedon's involvement.) In any case, my general inclination is not to take them into account in discussions like this one.

[Stoney]

I have to qualify that and say it isn't my thing when it comes to the comics! To me none of them really "count" as part of the official story at the same level as the TV shows, regardless of Joss Whedon's level of involvement. (But I'm happier to accept some of them as part of my personal canon than others; again regardless of Whedon's involvement.) In any case, my general inclination is not to take them into account in discussions like this one.

I understand why people don't feel as connected to the comic seasons as the show and why a lot of people choose to not read them. I don't tend to analyse them, the detail and execution the same as I do with the TV show, but accept the overall directions and character paths. I just feel invested in the ongoing stories and am interested in where Joss was happy with the idea of their stories continuing, so I prefer to take the whole canon journey given. I'd agree the tv shows are a different level, but I'm interested in the entire journey offered. Of course people are always free to pick and choose what they personally count and I've heard several fans talk about drawing the line at differing parts within the show too, S3 and S5 most commonly if they don't choose to pay attention to the whole show. I suppose I don't see discounting the comic continuation any differently in that sense, it is choosing to stop following the story. And personal canon is obviously everyone's choice, it doesn't stop what is the official canon of course, but there's no reason why people can't draw lines for themselves wherever they like. Personally I think it is limiting the conversation and character understanding to discount later developments from the official comics just as it would be to ignore the college years and on, or the last two seasons and the continuation. I always assume when people draw their own line of interest at an earlier season than the whole, whether in the show or after, that they are pretty accepting of points of discussion being raised that come from later seasons, even if they aren't of interest to them.

[Double Dutchess]

Sorry, I didn't express myself very well. Of course I am very much interested and invested in the comics (after all I've spent the past 10 years following them and discussing them online ) and I do accept that some of them are supposed to be official continuations of the show. It's just that personally I don't see them at the same level, and that's why I (speaking for myself only) am not inclined to bring them into discussions that are about the TV show. So instead of saying "not take them into account" I should have said "not bring them up". I was purely speaking about my own mind, in which there's a disconnect between the show and the comics (and where the canon/non-canon distinction between the various comics doesn't really matter). I certainly didn't mean to suggest that other people shouldn't raise points of discussion based on the comics or that I would ignore those points if they did.

ETA: rather than going further off-topic here, if there's anything to add I guess we should continue this discussion in the appropriate thread HERE.

[Stoney]

It's so easy to stray off topic. I do know what you mean DD, I just accept the whole lot personally and whilst I respect others feel differently and draw their own lines, only Joss decanonising the comic continuation would make a difference to me and what are official parts of the story and what are not matters to me. Everyone makes their own minds up of course and I appreciate that you weren't suggesting others shouldn't raise points from the continuation. I have posted on the other thread too, but I don't really think I have anything further to add.