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Did Angel leaving make Buffy a better show or better with him on it

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  • #21
    Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
      Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.
      I think that Buffy was at the early stages of moving on from Angel at the end of Faith, Hope & Trick. She opened up to Willow, and Giles about what happened, and there was that scene at the end of the episode Buffy returns to Angel's mansion, and places her Claddagh ring on the floor and says goodbye. So even if Angel hadn't come back I think that Buffy would have eventually moved on. It's better that he did come back since Buffy gets closure that she wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
      Last edited by Lostsoul666; 20-09-21, 08:00 PM.
      My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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      • #23
        vampmogs
        I do sometimes imagine what the series could have done with Angel had he never left. He could have been incorporated into the Initiative storyline quite easily either as being held captive or on the run.
        I like that storyline and think it would really have worked. It would have gotten even more interesting if they had kept Maggie Walsh as the Big bad instead of Adam. Buffy would then have found herself in a position where she defends a vampire against humans. I also think Angel on the run would have made for some interesting character growth for him. I don't think I would have liked to see him chipped but that part could have played out with Spike as it did on the show.

        However, I do think that Angel would have been killed off in season 5 so they could pull the rug from underneath Buffy's feet in season 6. Season 6 wouldn't have worked if Buffy had had emotional support from Angel throughout the season.

        flow.



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        • #24
          Yes, for me, BTVS did get a lot better without Angel.

          Buffy, the character she became far more admirable and inspirational.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Priceless View Post
            Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.
            If Angel hadn't returned she'd have been in (metaphorical) Hell with him rather than in the dark with Spike (just as she could have been in (metaphorical) Paradise with Angel in S8).

            I'm not sure she ever gets over him - though she gets over what she did to him. Joyce's death (and her imaginary role in it) is the one she doesn't get over.


            She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on.
            Nice - that's exactly how I read the end of S12 and it's why I hate it so much (but concede the aspic effect is realistic).

            Yes, BtVS is better without Angel - and Angel/AtS is better without Buffy.
            sigpic

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            • #26
              Originally posted by TriBel View Post

              If Angel hadn't returned she'd have been in (metaphorical) Hell with him rather than in the dark with Spike (just as she could have been in (metaphorical) Paradise with Angel in S8).

              I'm not sure she ever gets over him - though she gets over what she did to him. Joyce's death (and her imaginary role in it) is the one she doesn't get over.




              Nice - that's exactly how I read the end of S12 and it's why I hate it so much (but concede the aspic effect is realistic).

              Yes, BtVS is better without Angel - and Angel/AtS is better without Buffy.
              No, she literally gets over it at the end of Faith Hope and Trick, leaving the ring there as her way of saying goodbye .

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              • #27
                BtVS fan
                No, she literally gets over it at the end of Faith Hope and Trick, leaving the ring there as her way of saying goodbye .
                I'm not convinced. She's unsure how she feels about him in S10 and is still moping after him in S12. The ring's symbolic - her decision to leave it is conscious - as such it doesn't accommodate her unconscious fantasies and fear. It can't because she doesn't know them herself. The Claddagh ring is clasped hands but they're not real. Compare with the iconic Spuffy hand clasp - they're real hands, tangible hands that actually touch. They're of the body - not the mind. At one level, partly because Western philosophy elevates mind over body, they're "inferior".* Spuffy never achieves the highs/lows - the heaven/hell of Bangle but it's "realer" in the sense it's figured as "real", as a relationship that can - and does - exist on a physical plane. Angel/Bangel is a necessary illusion - something to strive towards - that can't be achieved because it never existed in the first place. At one level she knows this...at another level, she doesn't. It's kinda how desire works and you don't get to say goodbye to desire until you're dead (when you effectively achieve your desire).

                *I don't think Spuffy is inferior - one relationship doesn't take the place of another and neither takes anything away from the other. They're tangled together in a way that resembles a Borromean knot. I'm really talking about how they're represented and their textual, psychosocial function. Spuffy is figured as more - perhaps pragmatic - less imaginary? I think it's what Whedon was getting at when he said: "I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me."

                So no...I don't think she gets over Angel...I think she feels the "lack of Angel" but the lack is imaginary. You could probably say that desire consists of faith and hope but ultimately it's a trick...an illusion.

                (Sorry...minor digression flow, American Aurora I'm a bit ambivalent about Lucifer S6 - I found the early episodes a bit boring but I think there's a reason it starts with Lucifer not wanting to see the trick and ends the way it does).
                sigpic

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                • TriBel
                  TriBel commented
                  Editing a comment
                  flow - a mixed bag. I watched it twice and enjoyed it more on re-watch.

                • TimeTravellingBunny
                  TimeTravellingBunny commented
                  Editing a comment
                  God, how I hate it when JW starts talking about romance. He has such bizarre ideas about it that make me roll my eyes

                • TriBel
                  TriBel commented
                  Editing a comment
                  @Time Travelling Bunny - You had me at "I hate it when Joss Whedon starts talking...". I get so mired down in the sarcasm and irony that I just stop listening.

              • #28
                Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                BtVS fan

                I'm not convinced. She's unsure how she feels about him in S10 and is still moping after him in S12. The ring's symbolic - her decision to leave it is conscious - as such it doesn't accommodate her unconscious fantasies and fear. It can't because she doesn't know them herself. The Claddagh ring is clasped hands but they're not real. Compare with the iconic Spuffy hand clasp - they're real hands, tangible hands that actually touch. They're of the body - not the mind. At one level, partly because Western philosophy elevates mind over body, they're "inferior".* Spuffy never achieves the highs/lows - the heaven/hell of Bangle but it's "realer" in the sense it's figured as "real", as a relationship that can - and does - exist on a physical plane. Angel/Bangel is a necessary illusion - something to strive towards - that can't be achieved because it never existed in the first place. At one level she knows this...at another level, she doesn't. It's kinda how desire works and you don't get to say goodbye to desire until you're dead (when you effectively achieve your desire).

                *I don't think Spuffy is inferior - one relationship doesn't take the place of another and neither takes anything away from the other. They're tangled together in a way that resembles a Borromean knot. I'm really talking about how they're represented and their textual, psychosocial function. Spuffy is figured as more - perhaps pragmatic - less imaginary? I think it's what Whedon was getting at when he said: "I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me."

                So no...I don't think she gets over Angel...I think she feels the "lack of Angel" but the lack is imaginary. You could probably say that desire consists of faith and hope but ultimately it's a trick...an illusion.

                (Sorry...minor digression flow, American Aurora I'm a bit ambivalent about Lucifer S6 - I found the early episodes a bit boring but I think there's a reason it starts with Lucifer not wanting to see the trick and ends the way it does).
                I don't count the comics, they're crap.

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                • TriBel
                  TriBel commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You can ignore the comics. S8-12 simply confirm what's apparent in S1-7 (there's a reason Touched is called Touched - there's a reason hands figure strongly in S7...and AtS5 - though I've never thought AtS through).

                • Priceless
                  Priceless commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I think the comics are part of the whole. If you want the whole story you have to count the comics. Unless you're like Willow and you stop the movie at chapter 32 to get a happy ending

              • #29
                Angel leaving definitely made the show better. Buffy/Angel resulted in what is, IMO, the show’s best storyline and fueled some of the best episodes of the entire series. But by the end of S3, there was nowhere else left to go with their relationship.

                S3 is one of the most universally loved seasons of the show but a common complaint I see about S3 in fandom is how superfluous Angel is and how repetitive the Buffy/Angel is at that point. They had played every possible angle they could have played with the two of them. Buffy and Angel were in love, then had an epic rivalry, he had gone evil, she killed him, he came back, they got back together and made up, then broke up, then made up again, etc. They had been involved in numerous triangles already - Angel/Buffy/Xander; Buffy/Angel/Darla; Buffy/Angel/Drusilla; Buffy/Angel/Cordy; Buffy/Angel/Faith; the retroactive Angel/Buffy/Spike. What else was there to do with them?

                Their relationship had simply run its course. Both Buffy and Angel grew and developed as characters post-S3 in ways that they wouldn’t have been able to had he stayed on BtVS. If there had been 7 whole seasons of Buffy and Angel going back and forth, BtVS would have been a vastly inferior show IMO.


                Originally posted by BtVS fan
                Would you have been up for a Buffy Angel Riley Love triangle though as I'm guessing that's what they would've gone with ?
                I feel it's important to mention that we did get a triangle between Buffy, Angel and Riley. It was in "The Yoko Factor" and it was fun and enjoyable for that one episode. But if it had been a whole season, it would have dragged IMO. Buffy is way too interesting of a character to be trapped in a pointless romantic triangle.

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                • #30
                  If I had to answer for me yes the departure of Angel to improve the series but other person (in particular the Bangels) are not of the same opinion and it does not matter the seasons 1, 2 and 3 are very different from the season 4,5,6 and 7 it becomes more adult and dark

                  But personally I am glad that Angel left he bored me in BTS I found him sullen and too calm happy that Spike replaced them.
                  We had to go so far as to convince me to watch ATS but frankly I'm not on it I loved Angel, the Cangel and my two chcouch Cordy and Wesley

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                  • #31
                    S3 is one of the most universally loved seasons of the show.

                    Ha good? I suis on several forums and the majority prefer season 5 and season 3 is not really liked I think that since the Bangels are a little near half of the fandom and well they often vote for season 3
                    Last edited by sunnydalessummer; 26-10-21, 07:15 PM.

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                    • #32
                      Yes and no.

                      Season 2 was fantastic, and Angel was a crucial part of that. The arc of him losing his soul in season 2b is one of the best in the show and gave it some of its greatest episodes.

                      However, you could feel in season 3 that the writers simply didn't know what to do with him once he was brought back. And he probably wouldn't have even been brought back if it wasn't for the spinoff plans. I do love some of the Bangel moments in season 3 (the underrated Beauty and the Beasts, most of Amends apart from the cop-out ending, as these two are the only times when I thought the fallout of season 2 was addressed re: their relationship, and their scenes in The Prom and Graduation Day are also good - but they are the break-up and post-breakup, which says a lot) but throughout most of the season, this is where genuine tragedy of season 2 turned into cheap melodrama and cheesy pseudo-romantic stuff. There are lots of their scenes in season 2 that make me cringe and roll my eyes, and that especially tends to happen in episodes that are not about Bangel but have the obligatory cheesy Bangel scene (the Tai-Chi in Band Candy, Angel's corny lines in Helpless - though at least that gets undercut with a joke at the end, and especially Earshot. Earshot is otherwise one of the best Buffy episodes, but the Bangel stuff is so bad and cheesy that it really mars it for me.)
                      Fortunately, season 3 had a lot of other great stuff to make up for a stagnant Bangel storyline. But it's obvious that there was no room for Angel in the show anymore.

                      So, it's not that seasons were Angel were less good and the later seasons better (Riley was one of the weakest parts of season 4), but Angel's time on the show was done, and him leaving certainly made the later seasons much, much better than they could have been if he had stayed.









                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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                      • #33
                        I think S3 did a great job of starting to develop Angel beyond just being the love interest though and really did build up towards his break away. It made it more natural and believable that he'd leave rather than something dramatic tearing him away. It gave respectful weight to their feelings but managed to say they needed to draw a line under it, or at least Angel felt they did and Buffy on reflection agreed. If Angel hadn't been in S3 with those moves towards his exit worked in I think it would have felt jarring for him to suddenly turn away.

                        They obviously intentionally worked in elements that would play a part in where they'd start off AtS, with Angel's sense of isolation and his tendency to investigate things too which worked really well.

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                        • #34
                          Yes and No I think that all of personal preference depends on the series and more changeable better some will find that with Angel it was better and others not.

                          Although personally I prefer the later seasons, although we had a fantastic season Season 2 with a really good story arc and a big bad guy named Angelus who is definitely one of my favorite big bads from the Buffyverse, however I find that in season he had become a lot of melodrama with Buffy and I couldn't stand I actually hated this season already that I'm not Faith's biggest fan so we add the melodrama to the Bangel I not like that there was a good villain and a very good arc for me all this melodramatic we do Buffy and Angel ruined this season.

                          Season 1 is also one of the one I like the least but not because of Angel it has nothing to do with even though its side ("Monsiers I'm mysterious") tends to irritate me frankly that not work with me but it was mostly indifferent, but the first season sorely lacking in depth it was a narrative arc and rather weak special effects.

                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.
                          Yes, Buffy would have gotten over it I think you get over it one day or another like @ Lostsoul666 on the fact that Buffy had taken the first step she went ahead talking to Giles and Wilow, by ironing the ring but also by trying a new relationship with Scott she is allowed to move on although she was not completely healed over time she would probably get better. To say that she will never get over it is really a weird thought, everyone recovering from someone's death someday I think rest stuck in the past would be pretty *sad*

                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          Of course they could have stayed a couple for 7 seasons. Perhaps Willow could have done a spell to lift the curse.
                          Priceless I don't think it would have lasted in time honestly a lot of people think the only thing stopping them from being together is the curse but it never would. For me there are many internal problems in the couple such as communication, trust, complicity and understanding where they are weakest. For me a romantic relationship does not have some kisses go there or I love you every 5 min or even ("Our love is impossible") it does not constitute a relationship and I really do not think he would have lasted in time, in my opinion they bring out the worst of the other and as soon as they are together he generally turns into have seen it in child in the last episode of season 7. I really have trouble seeing them as a couple for years he would surely have ended up with this weariness of the other it's like a series where you are told that she is great because you invent things for yourself then you look and she just sucks I'm not saying Angel sucks of course .
                          Last edited by Misssunnay; 23-11-21, 12:16 AM.
                          Buffy and Spike are more than love more than true love there is no word for it yet but it is real - Lani Diane Rich -

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