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Did Angel leaving make Buffy a better show or better with him on it

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  • #21
    Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
      Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.
      I think that Buffy was at the early stages of moving on from Angel at the end of Faith, Hope & Trick. She opened up to Willow, and Giles about what happened, and there was that scene at the end of the episode Buffy returns to Angel's mansion, and places her Claddagh ring on the floor and says goodbye. So even if Angel hadn't come back I think that Buffy would have eventually moved on. It's better that he did come back since Buffy gets closure that she wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
      Last edited by Lostsoul666; 20-09-21, 07:00 PM.
      My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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      • #23
        vampmogs
        I do sometimes imagine what the series could have done with Angel had he never left. He could have been incorporated into the Initiative storyline quite easily either as being held captive or on the run.
        I like that storyline and think it would really have worked. It would have gotten even more interesting if they had kept Maggie Walsh as the Big bad instead of Adam. Buffy would then have found herself in a position where she defends a vampire against humans. I also think Angel on the run would have made for some interesting character growth for him. I don't think I would have liked to see him chipped but that part could have played out with Spike as it did on the show.

        However, I do think that Angel would have been killed off in season 5 so they could pull the rug from underneath Buffy's feet in season 6. Season 6 wouldn't have worked if Buffy had had emotional support from Angel throughout the season.

        flow.



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        • #24
          Yes, for me, BTVS did get a lot better without Angel.

          Buffy, the character she became far more admirable and inspirational.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Priceless View Post
            Can you imagine if Angel had never returned from hell? Poor Buffy would never have gotten over him or what she had to do. What a terrible concept. She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on. I'm very glad Angel came back, if only to free Buffy from that terrible guilt.
            If Angel hadn't returned she'd have been in (metaphorical) Hell with him rather than in the dark with Spike (just as she could have been in (metaphorical) Paradise with Angel in S8).

            I'm not sure she ever gets over him - though she gets over what she did to him. Joyce's death (and her imaginary role in it) is the one she doesn't get over.


            She's be set in aspic at that moment and how could she ever move on.
            Nice - that's exactly how I read the end of S12 and it's why I hate it so much (but concede the aspic effect is realistic).

            Yes, BtVS is better without Angel - and Angel/AtS is better without Buffy.
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            • #26
              Originally posted by TriBel View Post

              If Angel hadn't returned she'd have been in (metaphorical) Hell with him rather than in the dark with Spike (just as she could have been in (metaphorical) Paradise with Angel in S8).

              I'm not sure she ever gets over him - though she gets over what she did to him. Joyce's death (and her imaginary role in it) is the one she doesn't get over.




              Nice - that's exactly how I read the end of S12 and it's why I hate it so much (but concede the aspic effect is realistic).

              Yes, BtVS is better without Angel - and Angel/AtS is better without Buffy.
              No, she literally gets over it at the end of Faith Hope and Trick, leaving the ring there as her way of saying goodbye .

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              • #27
                BtVS fan
                No, she literally gets over it at the end of Faith Hope and Trick, leaving the ring there as her way of saying goodbye .
                I'm not convinced. She's unsure how she feels about him in S10 and is still moping after him in S12. The ring's symbolic - her decision to leave it is conscious - as such it doesn't accommodate her unconscious fantasies and fear. It can't because she doesn't know them herself. The Claddagh ring is clasped hands but they're not real. Compare with the iconic Spuffy hand clasp - they're real hands, tangible hands that actually touch. They're of the body - not the mind. At one level, partly because Western philosophy elevates mind over body, they're "inferior".* Spuffy never achieves the highs/lows - the heaven/hell of Bangle but it's "realer" in the sense it's figured as "real", as a relationship that can - and does - exist on a physical plane. Angel/Bangel is a necessary illusion - something to strive towards - that can't be achieved because it never existed in the first place. At one level she knows this...at another level, she doesn't. It's kinda how desire works and you don't get to say goodbye to desire until you're dead (when you effectively achieve your desire).

                *I don't think Spuffy is inferior - one relationship doesn't take the place of another and neither takes anything away from the other. They're tangled together in a way that resembles a Borromean knot. I'm really talking about how they're represented and their textual, psychosocial function. Spuffy is figured as more - perhaps pragmatic - less imaginary? I think it's what Whedon was getting at when he said: "I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me."

                So no...I don't think she gets over Angel...I think she feels the "lack of Angel" but the lack is imaginary. You could probably say that desire consists of faith and hope but ultimately it's a trick...an illusion.

                (Sorry...minor digression flow, American Aurora I'm a bit ambivalent about Lucifer S6 - I found the early episodes a bit boring but I think there's a reason it starts with Lucifer not wanting to see the trick and ends the way it does).
                sigpic

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                • flow
                  flow commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It's not yet available in Germany. It will drop sometime in October. However, I was hugely disappointed with season 5b and don't even know if I want to watch season 6.

                • TriBel
                  TriBel commented
                  Editing a comment
                  flow - a mixed bag. I watched it twice and enjoyed it more on re-watch.

              • #28
                Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                BtVS fan

                I'm not convinced. She's unsure how she feels about him in S10 and is still moping after him in S12. The ring's symbolic - her decision to leave it is conscious - as such it doesn't accommodate her unconscious fantasies and fear. It can't because she doesn't know them herself. The Claddagh ring is clasped hands but they're not real. Compare with the iconic Spuffy hand clasp - they're real hands, tangible hands that actually touch. They're of the body - not the mind. At one level, partly because Western philosophy elevates mind over body, they're "inferior".* Spuffy never achieves the highs/lows - the heaven/hell of Bangle but it's "realer" in the sense it's figured as "real", as a relationship that can - and does - exist on a physical plane. Angel/Bangel is a necessary illusion - something to strive towards - that can't be achieved because it never existed in the first place. At one level she knows this...at another level, she doesn't. It's kinda how desire works and you don't get to say goodbye to desire until you're dead (when you effectively achieve your desire).

                *I don't think Spuffy is inferior - one relationship doesn't take the place of another and neither takes anything away from the other. They're tangled together in a way that resembles a Borromean knot. I'm really talking about how they're represented and their textual, psychosocial function. Spuffy is figured as more - perhaps pragmatic - less imaginary? I think it's what Whedon was getting at when he said: "I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me."

                So no...I don't think she gets over Angel...I think she feels the "lack of Angel" but the lack is imaginary. You could probably say that desire consists of faith and hope but ultimately it's a trick...an illusion.

                (Sorry...minor digression flow, American Aurora I'm a bit ambivalent about Lucifer S6 - I found the early episodes a bit boring but I think there's a reason it starts with Lucifer not wanting to see the trick and ends the way it does).
                I don't count the comics, they're crap.

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                • TriBel
                  TriBel commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You can ignore the comics. S8-12 simply confirm what's apparent in S1-7 (there's a reason Touched is called Touched - there's a reason hands figure strongly in S7...and AtS5 - though I've never thought AtS through).

                • Priceless
                  Priceless commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I think the comics are part of the whole. If you want the whole story you have to count the comics. Unless you're like Willow and you stop the movie at chapter 32 to get a happy ending

              • #29
                Angel leaving definitely made the show better. Buffy/Angel resulted in what is, IMO, the show’s best storyline and fueled some of the best episodes of the entire series. But by the end of S3, there was nowhere else left to go with their relationship.

                S3 is one of the most universally loved seasons of the show but a common complaint I see about S3 in fandom is how superfluous Angel is and how repetitive the Buffy/Angel is at that point. They had played every possible angle they could have played with the two of them. Buffy and Angel were in love, then had an epic rivalry, he had gone evil, she killed him, he came back, they got back together and made up, then broke up, then made up again, etc. They had been involved in numerous triangles already - Angel/Buffy/Xander; Buffy/Angel/Darla; Buffy/Angel/Drusilla; Buffy/Angel/Cordy; Buffy/Angel/Faith; the retroactive Angel/Buffy/Spike. What else was there to do with them?

                Their relationship had simply run its course. Both Buffy and Angel grew and developed as characters post-S3 in ways that they wouldn’t have been able to had he stayed on BtVS. If there had been 7 whole seasons of Buffy and Angel going back and forth, BtVS would have been a vastly inferior show IMO.


                Originally posted by BtVS fan
                Would you have been up for a Buffy Angel Riley Love triangle though as I'm guessing that's what they would've gone with ?
                I feel it's important to mention that we did get a triangle between Buffy, Angel and Riley. It was in "The Yoko Factor" and it was fun and enjoyable for that one episode. But if it had been a whole season, it would have dragged IMO. Buffy is way too interesting of a character to be trapped in a pointless romantic triangle.

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